Onii-chan wa Oshimai! - Vol. 9 Ch. 81.8 - Non-Mahiro Special: Aoi-chan Edition

[Togelic]

To be fair, most people saying trap probably aren't using it as a slur, but it's entirely valid if some people don't want to use it. It can come off as a bit mean even in it's more benign meaning because of the implication that a character it's applied to is being deceptive.

It probably would be better if there was a more neutral term for otoko-no-ko characters in english instead of being stuck with the other options being either not translating it at all or using femboy, but sadly no-one's come up with a better alternative yet.

 

[kenwaynguyen]

Assuming that is true, what is the point of their activism? What longterm goals do you think they are pursuing by pushing against the use of certain words?

Language is power. Control how people say and speak, you control them.

It has never been "just one word". There's always "the next word"

 

[Shita-kiri_Suzume]

Language is power. Control how people say and speak, you control them.

It has never been "just one word". There's always "the next word"

So you are saying they have an ongoing agenda to alter the English language one idiom at at time? What would be the point of it? What's the endgame? Is it even possible to do that?

 

[kenwaynguyen]

And what power do they get out of making people drop an outmoded 4chan meme, exactly? What leverage do they gain over others, what benefit?

The simple fact that people are shunned for using a word that has no negative connotation nor baggage, trap, is a good example.
Remember initially you call people that use the term "trap" as "idiots who stamp their feet demanding to keep using offensive words"?
I remember.

 

[Medusa]

What's the endgame?

Censorship. It's always censorship.
Have you seen the trouble Collective Shout has caused to the UK, Visa and Mastercard? The goal is removing from the internet what they don't like.

 

[kenwaynguyen]

So you are saying they have an ongoing agenda to alter the English language one idiom at at time? What would be the point of it? What's the endgame? Is it even possible to do that?

By the fact that you're asking me this, tells me that you are not being genuine, asking questions in bad faith, and willingly ignoring everything that has happened during the last 10 years, minimum.
I see no reasons to discuss this any further.

 

[MidnighTea]

The simple fact that people are shunned for using a word that has no negative connotation nor baggage, trap, is a good example.
Remember initially you call people that use the term "trap" as "idiots who stamp their feet demanding to keep using offensive words"?
I remember.

Just FTR not everyone who has the same position that it's not a good word to be using is shunning you. I know I had a big tl;dr in the first page of this thread but I promise I did my best to be fair.

 

[Shita-kiri_Suzume]

Censorship. It's always censorship.
Have you seen the trouble Collective Shout has caused to the UK, Visa and Mastercard? The goal is removing from the internet what they don't like.

You know Collective Shout is an anti-LGBTQ+ group, right?

By the fact that you're asking me this, tells me that you are not being genuine, asking questions in bad faith, and willingly ignoring everything that has happened during the last 10 years, minimum.
I see no reasons to discuss this any further.

No, I am literally just asking you to explain your reasoning to me. Or does the simple fact of having to explain it put you in a difficult position?
Well, thanks for your time.

 

[kenwaynguyen]

Just FTR not everyone who has the same position that it's not a good word to be using is shunning you. I know I had a big tl;dr in the first page of this thread but I promise I did my best to be fair.

Oh no, I'm not talking about me being shunned.
I'm talking about other instances throughout the years of users being shunned for using "trap" to describe a type of character.
There's a reason why r/animemes a couple of years ago had a meltdown, then some users split to form r/goodanimemes. It was over the word "trap".

I was there, man. It was a glorious shit show.

 

[darekpawlo]

I mean I'm like 43, so yeah. I'm not a new face at all. I'm old enough to remember TV commercials for the original Super Mario Bros. 3

Imagine being close to hitting 50 and caring so much about a word as weak as "trap"

 

[kenwaynguyen]

Imagine being close to hitting 50 and caring so much about a word as weak as "trap"

If it's so weak, why are you oppose of people using it?

 

[MarchtheBurg]

Most even-handed counter-argument since I uploaded this chapter, and I respect that.
"Femboy" is indeed a serviceable (if a little iffy) alternative, definitely better than the other choice. Nevertheless, I preferred to go with the word from the JP original.
View attachment 33651
Either way, I made a conscious choice for the sake of a group of people who also enjoy this manga. It's just sad that some people here think they're not worth caring about.

That being said, tell you what, maybe me making that decision for them IS a bit arrogant. Trans people and allies in the thread, which term do you think works better? "Femboy" or "otoko-no-ko"?

I think otoko-no-ko, but without the hyphens, is ideal

otokonoko

 

[darekpawlo]

If it's so weak, why are you oppose of people using it?

For all I care they could be using f-word (can't type it since it's bannable)

 

[kenwaynguyen]

For all I care they could be using f-word (can't type it since it's bannable)

If it's all you care, why bring it up?

 

[Amiko]

While I personally don't particularly like using the word trap just because it can be so easily used as a derogatory term, simply because of the implications of the word, I feel additonal focus should be put on the actual translation of the term.

I'm not fluent by any means, but atleast have some basic understanding, and I really don't feel like 男の娘 can accurately translate to trap. I feel like trap in itself has become another sub genre of cross-dressing and the likes, if that makes sense? Most otokonoko tend to lean into the male lead being coerced into the cross-dressing in some regard, rather than actively doing it themselves as part of their character, which is what most popular trap characters do.

I dunno, at the end of the day I dont think it's an important enough word to police like certain other words. I feel like it should easily boil down to basic human to human understanding in that if someone doesn't like the word, you don't use it around them, y'know? Obviously not exactly applicable to something that is distrubuted online like a scanlation - but then that's where your own self-replacement or even your own edits can come in. If you want it one way, have it that way, but I dont think either side should be trying to force the other into accepting one or the other as the "true" way. Just seems like a lot of wasted breath cause neither side will want to budge.

 

[Togelic]

Honestly, it's up to the translator what word to use anyway. If they don't want to use trap they shouldn't have to use it.
If someone wants a translation that uses it, they can just make it themselves.

 

[kenwaynguyen]

Honestly, it's up to the translator what word to use anyway. If they don't want to use trap they shouldn't have to use it.
If someone wants a translation that uses it, they can just make it themselves.

I agree. It is up to the translator to use which word is the most appropriate to the scenario.
My problem is with the TL's comment.

 

[Medusa]

You know Collective Shout is an anti-LGBTQ+ group, right?

My example was about activism over the internet, it doesn't really matter what kind of group they are. Just that trying to do stuff like this over the internet, regardless of what group you are part of, will cause something negative to the group that was already there, unbothering the group that came later. It's not exactly the same, but look up the Streisand effect. Manga readers don't get involved with real life demographics, there are no trans in this manga, even less with a sci-fi almost magic potion as the premise, Aoi is not interested nor reading about trans since trans aren't even part of japanese fiction, so the trans community has nothing to do with policing the things manga readers say, not because they aren't in this manga, but because it's real life stuff that is trying to get mixed up with fantasy anime terms. You have the right to get bothered by the word trap in real life when someone in a gay bar says it to you or something, online, just no, the online community doesn't want anything to do with real life stuff, they just want to keep using the weeb terms we've been using since Lucky Star became popular.

 

[Amiko]

I agree. It is up to the translator to use which word is the most appropriate to the scenario.
My problem is with the TL's comment.

But, why do you bother? It's clear that neither of you will see eye to eye on this at all. You'll likely never even interact with one another again if you just close the thread. I feel like it can't be good for either of your mentals to keep debating to opposite sides of a brick wall.

 

[kenwaynguyen]

But, why do you bother? It's clear that neither of you will see eye to eye on this at all. You'll likely never even interact with one another again if you just close the thread. I feel like it can't be good for either of your mentals to keep debating to opposite sides of a brick wall.

Wanna put it on record.