Imasara desuga, Osananajimi o Suki ni Natteshimaimashita - Ch. 45.5 - Sin, Punishment, And Reward

[steppecist]

I want her to win icl.

 

[story645]

Well, understanding the person doesn't mean you aren't gonna have clashes or falling-outs

Sure, but what we were talking about was how a theme of the manga is that it's the lies themselves that cause the problems. The person who probably best understands Aya is Yozuka, and she's also the person who probably knows the most about Aya.

That's still blaming Yami.

I think the reason Aya doesn't think Hikari is blaming her is b/c of how many chances Hikari has given Yami to tell the truth. Which it's not that Hikari blames Aya so much as Hikari can't navigate a friendship with Aya and a ??? with Yuu w/o knowing where everyone stands b/c Hikari doesn't want to hurt people if she can help it.

 

[misopogon]

This fucking manga always manages to make me laugh

 

[GennArc]

The person who probably best understands Aya is Yozuka, and she's also the person who probably knows the most about Aya.

I don't see any evidence to that. I'd say it's Hikari by far, at least the 'understands' part.

I think the reason Aya doesn't think Hikari is blaming her is b/c of how many chances Hikari has given Yami to tell the truth.

In my opinion, there is a different theme here: that her guilty conscience seeks to be blamed and punished, and Hikari denies her that. And her spelling out that Hikari never blames her is not just about Hikari being so kind, but also about being denied that retribution which feels worse than being blamed and shouted at. In that sense, her last phrase in "Hikari part" about what hurts her the most is not just the fact that Hikari broke down, but that she broke down partly because of never venting that anger at her.
And this guilty conscience is also why she got so mad at those guys in chapter 45 when they said it's Hikari's and Yuu's fault.

 

[story645]

I don't see any evidence to that

In the short interaction we see between them, Yozuka gets Aya to open up about something she's keeping close to her chest (Yuu) and flags Aya's self-esteem issues. Hikari does much the same, but Yozuka also has the experience with Aya to know how it'll all end.

but that she broke down partly because of never venting that anger at her.

Aya flags that Hikari is furious when Hikari first meets her, and Aya's yelling of "bind him" is in response to Hikari yelling "you still like him". Also Yuu doesn't blame her either - she also wishes for him to - and she doesn't think he broke.

Which I agree, Aya would like Yuu and Hikari to agree w/ her that she's the worst and they're denying her that, but I think that's separate from why Aya thinks Hikari breaks.

 

[GennArc]

Yozuka gets Aya to open up about something she's keeping close to her chest (Yuu)

She doesn't open up, like, at all, reread the chapter. She doesn't tell Yuzuka anything and has that dismissive attitude.

Aya flags that Hikari is furious when Hikari first meets her, and Aya's yelling of "bind him" is in response to Hikari yelling "you still like him".

I wouldn't say Hikari standing up for Yami's feelings qualifies as venting anger at her.

Also Yuu doesn't blame her either - she also wishes for him to - and she doesn't think he broke.

I think their cases are quite different. She did hurt Yuu, but that was due to circumstances she knows about, and it's not like he was behaving much different from what she's seen from him during their scene or after it.
Hikari, on the other hand, was hurt by something Yami did without any external circumstances involved, and the way she behaved was different from her usual.

 

[story645]

She doesn't tell Yuzuka anything and has that dismissive attitude.

Which she drops to open up about how Yuu is all she thinks she needs, which is a major admission of vulnerability. This is the same song and dance Aya does w/ Hikari - start off w/ defenses up that she lowers.

Hikari standing up for Yami's feelings qualifies as venting anger at her.

I think it does in that what Hikari is angry about is that Aya isn't owning her feelings.

Hikari, on the other hand, was hurt by something Yami did without any external circumstances involved, and the way she behaved was different from her usual.

The external circumstance here was the festival where they ran into each other, which is why Hikari can forgive the kiss as impulsive, and Aya straight up thinks she may have kissed Yuu because Hikari was there.

And this is exactly how Hikari acts - stubborn, emotional, dog w/ a bone. Hikari aired out all her greviences in 34, it just comes across as less dramatic b/c Aya isn't really resisting in 34.

 

[GennArc]

Which she drops to open up about how Yuu is all she thinks she needs, which is a major admission of vulnerability. This is the same song and dance Aya does w/ Hikari

I see it completely differently. I don't think there was any display of vulnerability there, the tone of her words or her attitude don't change throughout the chapter. She doesn't tell anything about Yuu, doesn't really engage in any conversation. Compare it to 35 or to 24 where she does open up and shows her vulnerabilities.

The external circumstance here was the festival where they ran into each other, which is why Hikari can forgive the kiss as impulsive, and Aya straight up thinks she may have kissed Yuu because Hikari was there.

We're talking about how Yami herself feels about both incidents. I think the level of guilt she feels about ghosting Yuu because of her mom's suicide attempt and about kissing Yuu in front of Hikari because she just wanted to do it might be quite different.

 

[story645]

She doesn't tell anything about Yuu,

She reveals that he's the most important thing to her & radiates soft happiness. Aya's absolutely giving Yozuka enough to hurt Aya with - for example by Yozuka voicing concerns about things blowing up - if Yozuka wanted to.

because she just wanted to do it might be quite different.

I think she did it for many of the same reasons she ghosted Yuu - it was emotionally easier to blow things up than to risk Yuu/Hikari hurting her by not accepting the things she's keeping closest to her chest.

Which she doubled down on not explaining anything to Yuu - I find the guilt argument kind of ? in that the story she's telling Yuu is that she ghosted him just cause. I think I lost the thread here of how this all relates to Aya thinking Hikari broke b/c Hikari couldn't "take it anymore" in terms of "trying to come to terms w/ the situation."

 

[GennArc]

She reveals that he's the most important thing to her & radiates soft happiness. Aya's absolutely giving Yozuka enough to hurt Aya with - for example by Yozuka voicing concerns about things blowing up - if Yozuka wanted to.

If you want to equate this kind of vulnerability with what she did in chapters 35 or 24, then I doubt there's any point in continuing as we're thinking too differently to find any middle ground here.

I think she did it for many of the same reasons she ghosted Yuu - it was emotionally easier to blow things up than to risk Yuu/Hikari hurting her by not accepting the things she's keeping closest to her chest.

Just to reiterate (but no need to continue here), I still think she did it just because it's Yuu. No reasons, no thinking, just an impulsive decision because Yuu was finally in front of her after a year.

I think I lost the thread here of how this all relates to Aya thinking Hikari broke b/c Hikari couldn't "take it anymore" in terms of "trying to come to terms w/ the situation."

I just wrote my idea that Yami's guilt makes her seek for punishment and retribution from Hikari, and Hikari not venting her anger at Yami is a part of what caused that breakdown.

 

[peortega1]

I see it completely differently. I don't think there was any display of vulnerability there, the tone of her words or her attitude don't change throughout the chapter. She doesn't tell anything about Yuu, doesn't really engage in any conversation.

I´m agree. Yami only whispers a brief line about "he is everything what I need" FOR HERSELF, and believes Yuzuka didn´t hear nothing (like she believes Yuu didn´t notice she was virgin in their first time), and also quickly changes the topic of conversation offering food when Yuzuka tries to ask her again about her boyfriend.
The only real difference is Yuzuka being more pessimistic -and to be fair, realistic- than the eternally optimistic Yuu and Hikari, who were disposed to suffer to try to save Yami (even if Hikari only did because she thought it was her duty as class president and her goal was mainly make Yami assist to classes, she really befriend Yami came after).

I just wrote my idea that Yami's guilt makes her seek for punishment and retribution from Hikari, and Hikari not venting her anger at Yami is a part of what caused that breakdown.

Also because Hikari is a coward, as I already said. This is the reason why Hikari vents her anger and attacks Yuu, but she doesn´t do with Yami because she knows Yami will return the punch, because, yes, Yami wants being punished by Hikari, but she wants attack Hikari too, she wants expel her own anger against Hikari because Hikari was not able to confess and fuck Yuu before, because Hikari was not able to claim the moral high ground
Yami wanted be the infidel, the adulterer, the cheater, like Kazusa Touma and Ai Kamiya before her, but Hikari denied it to her, and this is the worst action ever did by Hikari before Yami´s eyes, Yami would desire Hikari would be more like Setsuna Ogiso, Chiaki Izumi or Miyako Shikimori.
And yes, because even now Yami hates Hikari really doesn´t need her neither Yuu, Hikari can live without them without real problems, she is not Setsuna choosing Haruki over Kazusa. Egoist Hikari easily can renounce to both Yuu and Yami.
PS. This and to be fair, Hikari pushing Yuu to the floor probably was an impulsive act without think it, if the WN is a valid reasoning for this. But doesn´t change Hikari is a coward who won´t risk being physically attacked by Yami as she already was in the past -the attempt of stolen kiss in chapter 5 and when Yami almost whores her in chapter 33-

 

[peortega1]

In the short interaction we see between them, Yuzuka gets Aya to open up about something she's keeping close to her chest (Yuu) and flags Aya's self-esteem issues

Again, if Yuzuka would understand so well to Aya, she wouldn´t call by the surname of her abuser step-father in first place. Even Yuu was able to recognize this in their first encounter in a way Yuzuka never did it, also Hikari did it too when Yami said her about her surname change from Matsushita to Sudo.

We're talking about how Yami herself feels about both incidents. I think the level of guilt she feels about ghosting Yuu because of her mom's suicide attempt and about kissing Yuu in front of Hikari because she just wanted to do it might be quite different

Is because she is aware now from the pain she did to Yuu and Hikari. In chapter 41, she only realizes the real magnitude of her acts when she sees Yuu crying and running away just after Hikari did exactly the same. Is precisely this the same reason why she chose ghosted Yuu instead write at least a message saying something like "I got bored from you, bye". Yami feels more guilty is when she actively harms the people who she loves.
Also, as I said in the other thread, the Hikari-Ayami relationship is more egalitarian. Hikari is more passive, and more of a enabler than Yuu, but less obedient and less submissive than him. She obeys Yami much less and she is much less affected by Yami's teasing and jokes (this makes more easy to her forgive Aya, everything be said).
That's why Aya generally speaks more seriously with her and gives her advice in a more personal way, whereas when Aya gives advice to Yuu, it's from her role as a dominatrix/teacher/mother figure.
Hence, in general, Aya's dynamic with Hikari is more "normal".

 

[story645]

want to equate this kind of vulnerability with what she did in chapters 35 or 24

I think it's on the same spectrum?

I still think she did it just because it's Yuu.

Aya thinks she may have done it b/c Hikari was there. Which I think is why she'd feel so much like she deserves Hikari's hatred/condemnation, b/c she may have done it to test/blow up the relationship w/ Hikari as much as out of love for Yuu.
If it was just impulse b/c Yuu, than Hikari just wanting the truth shouldn't be the deal breaker b/c Aya should be able to confess to Hikari what Hikari already knows and move forward w/ Hikari.

 

[Greinhmorf]

More disturbing, in some ways. Pain is something any normal person, or, heck, animal will try to avoid. Enjoying some types of physical pain because of crossed wires in the head is something that could make sense.

Getting pleasure from situations that cause one's own suffering? That's a whole different level of unnatural.

nah, it's not unnatural. Masturbation as a form of escapism is a very common stress reaction. You don't get off from the bad things that happen to you; you try to please yourself to take your mind away from the things that hurt you. Anybody who has been through a rough enough period in their life should know the feeling

 

[Ignore]

nah, it's not unnatural. Masturbation as a form of escapism is a very common stress reaction. You don't get off from the bad things that happen to you; you try to please yourself to take your mind away from the things that hurt you. Anybody who has been through a rough enough period in their life should know the feeling

If she were engaging in escapism, that would be normal. But it's pretty strongly implied that what she's imagining is the stressful situation getting even worse, or perhaps violence resulting from it. She doesn't seem to have any religious views that would cause her to feel shame about the act itself.

 

[GennArc]

If it was just impulse b/c Yuu, than Hikari just wanting the truth shouldn't be the deal breaker b/c Aya should be able to confess to Hikari what Hikari already knows

She refuses to admit it for completely different reasons though. Admitting that means that they are gonna fight for him, it means they become rivals, it means she won't just be able to step aside like she intended to.

If she were engaging in escapism, that would be normal. But it's pretty strongly implied that what she's imagining is the stressful situation getting even worse, or perhaps violence resulting from it.

Huh? That's not the implication here. She starts pleasuring herself once Yuu is on her mind.

 

[Ignore]

She refuses to admit it for completely different reasons though. Admitting that means that they are gonna fight for him, it means they become rivals, it means she won't just be able to step aside like she intended to.

Huh? That's not the implication here. She starts pleasuring herself once Yuu is on her mind.

Specifically in the context of him hating/being broken by/taking violent revenge and/or hurting/breaking Hikari. Remember the scene in JJK where Junpei Yoshino says 'Ma(evil)hito(person) isn't a bad person... wait... Mahito...' and then gets turned into a gibbering monster by Mahitio? This is a story where the destructive girl is named 'darkness' and the saintly girl is named 'light'. Yami discovering she gets off to really twisted fantasies shouldn't come as a surprise.

 

[GennArc]

Specifically in the context of him hating/being broken by/taking violent revenge and/or hurting/breaking Hikari.

Reread the chapter. She is remembering the time when they were a couple, and them having sex in particular (page 10).

 

[Ignore]

Reread the chapter. She is remembering the time when they were a couple, and them having sex in particular (page 10).

"Save me, Yuu. Come and break me more violently than any other time."
It's explicitly stated she is fantasizing, not remembering, and the fantasy involves irreparable harm to her body and/or mind. She has consistently said that she hates the world, hates herself, wants to corrupt people, cause suffering, be punished by the people who love her, and leave a void when she disappears.

 

[peortega1]

"Save me, Yuu. Come and break me more violently than any other time."
It's explicitly stated she is fantasizing, not remembering, and the fantasy involves irreparable harm to her body and/or mind. She has consistently said that she hates the world, hates herself, wants to corrupt people, cause suffering, be punished by the people who love her, and leave a void when she disappears.

Because she somehow feels "impure" for having had sex with Yuu—which is partly why she has a bad reputation at her school. Incidentally, he has a similar mindset. These concepts of purity reinforced in both of them the feeling of having done something "forbidden", especially since having sex in love hotels while underage is illegal in Japan —and worldwide.
That's why she sees sex as both positive and necessary, and at the same time forbidden and impure. They both act as if they've completely lost their innocence. This is partly why neither of them told anyone about the sexual aspects of their relationship, including Hikari. When Yami finally told Hikari and her friends, she distorted the events and portrayed herself as a slut when in reality she had only had sex with her boyfriend, whom she loved.
This also explains why her proposal to live together in chapter 28 was almost a marriage proposal, and why Yuu also wanted to commit to Ayami for life. Their romance is partly tragic because both of them—though much more so her—failed to communicate this to each other.
Hence, Yami almost put on Unravel while having sex with Yuu. This is why it's so important that Hikari does NOT share this view of love and sexuality, and why she feels ashamed of still being a virgin (chapter 5). This is also why she fell in love with Yuu precisely because he had gained sexual and emotional experience with Aya.