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@TrueGoddessReincarnation lmao shit, he's adopted
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@Dramsss
Languages are not static, and I would call it a feature, not a problem. Moreover, many words have multiple definitions, so even when we're not talking about slang you have to interpret and be flexible in your understanding of what others might mean.
It is factually incorrect to say that a synonym has lost all meaning. The word still has a meaning and can still be used. Moreover, no word is truly equal. There are differences in how familiar the word is, in the sound it makes (which can be used in poetry), in denoting a person's preference and what influences they have received, etc. It's also important to understand that when I said expand the meaning of jobbing to losing with no extra nuance, I meant that as an additional definition - I was personally still using it in a very personal sense that the author would make this character lose the fight and also as a reflection of the overall use of the word in these particular communities. You say that the word "bro" has lost its purpose, but that's incorrect, it tells you something about the person speaking it and it adds some flavour to the speech. You could say that this is very similar to how a certain character ends his sentences with dattebayo, which has no literal meaning but still carries connotations that the speaker is uncultured or brusque.
All definitions are restrictions on a word's meaning but I just felt like your definition was particularly narrow and not suitable (and yet this has no official definition). For me, jobbing simply means losing but in a certain context. I mean, you wouldn't catch me saying: Oh no, I jobbed my car keys! Where are they?
I get from what you're saying that you view jobbing to have a worse negative connotation than losing and that you would not use that term for certain fight losses but your reasons are beyond arbitrary and your definition is unlikely to be used by anyone else. I mean saying that Rihito wouldn't job if he lost this fight because his opponent is using poison and probably considering that Gaolang didn't job the first fight because he was shown to be stronger than before (while barely having an advantage against a ridiculously scrawny dude) but lost due to an arbitrary rule (because he wasn't paying attention). But if we're going to talk about arbitrary feelings here are some of mine. We all had some expectations of Gaolang because of how hard he pushed the Fang, but between the extremely silly faces he makes during matches, the fact that he's not really free of roaming about because he works for his majesty so we're unlikely to see much of him beyond this tournament, and the fact that the author decided to use him instead of Okubo who showed up in a clown costume to demonstrate the Purgatory out of bounds rule, I strongly feel that he's not just jobbing, he's a jobber.
And let me also tell you why I think that if Rihito loses this, he is definitely jobbing. Rihito NEEDS to win this. Dude was barely worthwhile of the preliminaries in the previous manga and was comic relief, he became the disciple of the winner of the previous tournament, he has no relation whatsoever to the nefarious plot that is happening in the background, his only value right now is to even the score in the current tournament, he HAS to win this. If he loses this match, he'll be jobbing, because the author is saying: not this time, wait for Rihito to win a match, after 50 more years of training in the next Kengan something something, maybe, if I feel like it, but right now he's really convenient as fodder and I'd rather have the Kengan team accumulate some losses in this tournament so the next Kengan fighters can win (new fighters with new fighting techniques, weeeeee) than give this character a result befitting of his supposed training.
I don't think the format of the tournament changes all that much about the unpredictability, but this has nothing to do with our discussion on what jobbing means.
Languages are not static, and I would call it a feature, not a problem. Moreover, many words have multiple definitions, so even when we're not talking about slang you have to interpret and be flexible in your understanding of what others might mean.
It is factually incorrect to say that a synonym has lost all meaning. The word still has a meaning and can still be used. Moreover, no word is truly equal. There are differences in how familiar the word is, in the sound it makes (which can be used in poetry), in denoting a person's preference and what influences they have received, etc. It's also important to understand that when I said expand the meaning of jobbing to losing with no extra nuance, I meant that as an additional definition - I was personally still using it in a very personal sense that the author would make this character lose the fight and also as a reflection of the overall use of the word in these particular communities. You say that the word "bro" has lost its purpose, but that's incorrect, it tells you something about the person speaking it and it adds some flavour to the speech. You could say that this is very similar to how a certain character ends his sentences with dattebayo, which has no literal meaning but still carries connotations that the speaker is uncultured or brusque.
All definitions are restrictions on a word's meaning but I just felt like your definition was particularly narrow and not suitable (and yet this has no official definition). For me, jobbing simply means losing but in a certain context. I mean, you wouldn't catch me saying: Oh no, I jobbed my car keys! Where are they?
I get from what you're saying that you view jobbing to have a worse negative connotation than losing and that you would not use that term for certain fight losses but your reasons are beyond arbitrary and your definition is unlikely to be used by anyone else. I mean saying that Rihito wouldn't job if he lost this fight because his opponent is using poison and probably considering that Gaolang didn't job the first fight because he was shown to be stronger than before (while barely having an advantage against a ridiculously scrawny dude) but lost due to an arbitrary rule (because he wasn't paying attention). But if we're going to talk about arbitrary feelings here are some of mine. We all had some expectations of Gaolang because of how hard he pushed the Fang, but between the extremely silly faces he makes during matches, the fact that he's not really free of roaming about because he works for his majesty so we're unlikely to see much of him beyond this tournament, and the fact that the author decided to use him instead of Okubo who showed up in a clown costume to demonstrate the Purgatory out of bounds rule, I strongly feel that he's not just jobbing, he's a jobber.
And let me also tell you why I think that if Rihito loses this, he is definitely jobbing. Rihito NEEDS to win this. Dude was barely worthwhile of the preliminaries in the previous manga and was comic relief, he became the disciple of the winner of the previous tournament, he has no relation whatsoever to the nefarious plot that is happening in the background, his only value right now is to even the score in the current tournament, he HAS to win this. If he loses this match, he'll be jobbing, because the author is saying: not this time, wait for Rihito to win a match, after 50 more years of training in the next Kengan something something, maybe, if I feel like it, but right now he's really convenient as fodder and I'd rather have the Kengan team accumulate some losses in this tournament so the next Kengan fighters can win (new fighters with new fighting techniques, weeeeee) than give this character a result befitting of his supposed training.
I don't think the format of the tournament changes all that much about the unpredictability, but this has nothing to do with our discussion on what jobbing means.
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@Kireato
There is always some nuances between synonyms but by extending the meaning to losing in a certain context it also means you loses the original meaning because there is literally no way to make the difference (our discussion is enough proof for that). Not all meaning is lost but the core is. What was used to refer to something specific now is used a synonym of losing in a manga.
and https://www.reddit.com/r/manga/comments/gauxho/disc_kengan_omega_ch_59/fp1xx2z?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
Did you see how well it was received? The answers correcting them have far more upvotes. Seems like most people agree with my definition after all. I have also already mentioned in my former comments that the definition on the Urban dictionary "jobbing = losing" has ten times more downvotes than upvotes. Here is the link : https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jobbing
About your
The result doesn't matter. For the Gaolang-Carlos fight it's evident that Gaolang progressed and "won" (under Kengan rules) a fight that he would have definitely lost two years ago. The ring-out loss doesn't change that, nothing will.
Same thing for Rihito, as you said he was a comic relief and not relevant past the seven chapter in Asura. Now he is fighting toe-to-toe against a first-rate fighter (Kuneda's words) whereas the Rihito from before would have been helpless. His status as a jobber (and I'm going with your definition here) doesn't depend on who wins the fight, that's blood loss against poison. He has already shown that 1) he isn't a jobber anymore and 2) will become even more relevant as a fighter in the future.
About the format of the tournament, I mentioned it because that's a way for the author to keep the unpredictability. We have a good idea now of where the Kengan fighters stand in terms of strength and we understand that someone like Raian will go very far in a tournament format. To avoid that the author makes them fight unknown fighters (for the readers) in a format where they fight only once, so the readers understand that a very strong fighter can lose against an even stronger fighter but still be better than an average fighter beating a weak one.
There is always some nuances between synonyms but by extending the meaning to losing in a certain context it also means you loses the original meaning because there is literally no way to make the difference (our discussion is enough proof for that). Not all meaning is lost but the core is. What was used to refer to something specific now is used a synonym of losing in a manga.
No I actually think it's the opposite, my definition seems to come from the way the word was used in wreslting but let's talk about how unlikely it is that people use the word like me for manga characters. Here are two comments using "jobbing" like you on reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/manga/comments/gauxho/disc_kengan_omega_ch_59/fp1ypc8?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
and https://www.reddit.com/r/manga/comments/gauxho/disc_kengan_omega_ch_59/fp1xx2z?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
Did you see how well it was received? The answers correcting them have far more upvotes. Seems like most people agree with my definition after all. I have also already mentioned in my former comments that the definition on the Urban dictionary "jobbing = losing" has ten times more downvotes than upvotes. Here is the link : https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jobbing
About your
..... it looks like you value the final result more than the fight itself. I have seen people thinking like you in the readers of Ippo and Karate Shoukoushi Kohinata Minoru. So let's be clear, a fighter's progression and maturation doesn't depend on his victory or defeat. It depends on how he acted during the fight itself. Look at Ippo against Guevara for example,
even if Ippo won he would have regressed as a boxer and be one step closer to a jobber.
Same thing for Rihito, as you said he was a comic relief and not relevant past the seven chapter in Asura. Now he is fighting toe-to-toe against a first-rate fighter (Kuneda's words) whereas the Rihito from before would have been helpless. His status as a jobber (and I'm going with your definition here) doesn't depend on who wins the fight, that's blood loss against poison. He has already shown that 1) he isn't a jobber anymore and 2) will become even more relevant as a fighter in the future.
About the format of the tournament, I mentioned it because that's a way for the author to keep the unpredictability. We have a good idea now of where the Kengan fighters stand in terms of strength and we understand that someone like Raian will go very far in a tournament format. To avoid that the author makes them fight unknown fighters (for the readers) in a format where they fight only once, so the readers understand that a very strong fighter can lose against an even stronger fighter but still be better than an average fighter beating a weak one.
@Dramsss
Well, clearly you have evidence that there are many people like yourself who really dislike considering fighters who fight a good fight but who lost as having jobbed it. I think that is actually the corruption of the meaning of jobbing. I mean, you're saying that if Ippo had won his fight he'd be closer to a jobber. What does that even mean? I don't know how anyone would ever consider Ippo to be a jobber. His fight record is not that of a jobber and his status as a main character protects him from this, unlike some other boxers from his gym who are literally jobbers and I'm obviously not talking about Takamura.
I've said it before, but you seem to conflate jobbing once to being a jobber. Ippo was set to lose some fights because the author wanted to show that he was treading the wrong path and that there are also struggles and setbacks. I am perfectly comfortable saying that Ippo jobbed those fights, yet I don't see Ippo as a jobber. (Meanwhile his jobber gym buddies may have some interesting fights, and even fights they've won, but they still have a firm status as jobbers.)
I mean, you seem to have serious misconceptions or misunderstandings about how I view things. I think Gaolang is awesome and really strong. I love the character and I find it fantastic that he's shown such progression as a fighter. However, I'm not going to be in denial about the fact that he lost this match against Purgatory. Gaolang has been a Muay Thai fighter, a boxer, and a Kengan fighter - he should have been more aware than anyone on how rules can make a difference in a fight so seeing him lose like this is disappointing. He's known to be calm and calculating and yet he was the one used by the author to show off the ruling issue? And he lost against a scrawny ass dude? When I'm saying that he jobbed that fight, I'm not saying that Gaolang sucks, I'm saying that he lost for plot reasons. The Kengan fighters may have remarked that he got stronger, fought remarkably well and would have won under Kengan rules, but the most important thing they pointed out was that anyone of them could have lost in the same way because none of them took the difference in rules seriously. Remember that I view jobbing as the act of losing a fight that is essentially fated (in a wrestling match, it would be arranged, in a work of fiction, it's decided by the author). Moreover, you could easily argue that in a tournament of this level, there aren't any jobbers. All the fighters here have won many matches that haven't been shown. Gaolang may be losing his matches while "on screen" but he's known to be a beast in a fight and none of the fighters, and I doubt even none of the Purgatory's fighters, think he's weak. That's just silly.
Meanwhile, while you're arguing that jobbing =/= losing, you're furiously denying that Gaolang is a jobber and making sure to point out that you really don't believe that Gaolang actually lost the fight. So who's the one here who actually sees jobbing as losing? All of those reddit upvotes come from people who have this understanding that jobbing is losing and losing is bad, and really the character didn't actually lose so they refuse to call him a jobber and that says everything about how they actually understand the word.
My definition of jobber is a character who fights in a work of fiction, and who the author regularly uses to lose matches. So no, your statements show you don't understand at all how I view things. I actually value the result of a fight much less than you which is why I'm willing to actually say that they've jobbed it. Gaolang has lost, and so what? Does that make him any less entertaining or awesome? When you're finding some warped excuses on why a character didn't actually lose, all that tells me is that you actually value the final result really highly and you want to state that it was a win. Gaolang had an amazing fight, but honestly I was also impressed by his Purgatory opponent who showed us a strong drive to win and some ridiculous skills to be able to handle a fight with a large weight disadvantage. Remember that there is no great match without a great opponent (and Rihito's opponent had to be a goofball, even if a very skillful one) and that mistakes are what makes things interesting so I do not care at all about the fact that Gaolang lost and I have no issue saying he jobbed that fight.
I still don't see how talking about the format of the tournament has any relevance on our discussion about the meaning of jobbing. I have nothing to say about that, so why are you bringing this up?
But let's conclude this; you do an incredibly poor job of explaining what you mean by jobbing, but reading through the reddit thread I see a simple and very acceptable definition: jobbing is losing to hype up another character. If that's the main view, I can definitely accept it and I would say that Ippo has jobbed twice (and I'm not talking about the Guevara fight, because Ippo fought so poorly he wasn't hyping up anyone). Indeed, when you consider the tournament format between Purgatory and Kengan, since fighters only have one match, there's no reason whatsoever to hype a fighter because we're not expecting them to fight again so you could say that there will be no jobbing whatsoever this tournament (unless we discover certain fighters are linked to the nefarious cloning plot, in which case I expect they'll win and be hyped because they're going to have to be defeated later). (And please do note that I mention the tournament format and make a point about what jobbing means.) I still think that jobbing to describe authors using certain characters to lose fights is acceptable, and you'll note that there is no negative connotation for a fighter when I say they're jobbing, but as it's not the main view, then clearly I'm the one in the wrong. Next time, I'll say: "Is Rihito going to loooooooose?
" instead of job and I'll keep saying: "Gaolang lost in the lamest way possible." (as I believe I said something like that a few chapters ago) , and I'll use job when a character is actually being hyped by a loss.
And with that, I can say that I definitely didn't job this argument. B)
Well, clearly you have evidence that there are many people like yourself who really dislike considering fighters who fight a good fight but who lost as having jobbed it. I think that is actually the corruption of the meaning of jobbing. I mean, you're saying that if Ippo had won his fight he'd be closer to a jobber. What does that even mean? I don't know how anyone would ever consider Ippo to be a jobber. His fight record is not that of a jobber and his status as a main character protects him from this, unlike some other boxers from his gym who are literally jobbers and I'm obviously not talking about Takamura.
I've said it before, but you seem to conflate jobbing once to being a jobber. Ippo was set to lose some fights because the author wanted to show that he was treading the wrong path and that there are also struggles and setbacks. I am perfectly comfortable saying that Ippo jobbed those fights, yet I don't see Ippo as a jobber. (Meanwhile his jobber gym buddies may have some interesting fights, and even fights they've won, but they still have a firm status as jobbers.)
I mean, you seem to have serious misconceptions or misunderstandings about how I view things. I think Gaolang is awesome and really strong. I love the character and I find it fantastic that he's shown such progression as a fighter. However, I'm not going to be in denial about the fact that he lost this match against Purgatory. Gaolang has been a Muay Thai fighter, a boxer, and a Kengan fighter - he should have been more aware than anyone on how rules can make a difference in a fight so seeing him lose like this is disappointing. He's known to be calm and calculating and yet he was the one used by the author to show off the ruling issue? And he lost against a scrawny ass dude? When I'm saying that he jobbed that fight, I'm not saying that Gaolang sucks, I'm saying that he lost for plot reasons. The Kengan fighters may have remarked that he got stronger, fought remarkably well and would have won under Kengan rules, but the most important thing they pointed out was that anyone of them could have lost in the same way because none of them took the difference in rules seriously. Remember that I view jobbing as the act of losing a fight that is essentially fated (in a wrestling match, it would be arranged, in a work of fiction, it's decided by the author). Moreover, you could easily argue that in a tournament of this level, there aren't any jobbers. All the fighters here have won many matches that haven't been shown. Gaolang may be losing his matches while "on screen" but he's known to be a beast in a fight and none of the fighters, and I doubt even none of the Purgatory's fighters, think he's weak. That's just silly.
Meanwhile, while you're arguing that jobbing =/= losing, you're furiously denying that Gaolang is a jobber and making sure to point out that you really don't believe that Gaolang actually lost the fight. So who's the one here who actually sees jobbing as losing? All of those reddit upvotes come from people who have this understanding that jobbing is losing and losing is bad, and really the character didn't actually lose so they refuse to call him a jobber and that says everything about how they actually understand the word.
My definition of jobber is a character who fights in a work of fiction, and who the author regularly uses to lose matches. So no, your statements show you don't understand at all how I view things. I actually value the result of a fight much less than you which is why I'm willing to actually say that they've jobbed it. Gaolang has lost, and so what? Does that make him any less entertaining or awesome? When you're finding some warped excuses on why a character didn't actually lose, all that tells me is that you actually value the final result really highly and you want to state that it was a win. Gaolang had an amazing fight, but honestly I was also impressed by his Purgatory opponent who showed us a strong drive to win and some ridiculous skills to be able to handle a fight with a large weight disadvantage. Remember that there is no great match without a great opponent (and Rihito's opponent had to be a goofball, even if a very skillful one) and that mistakes are what makes things interesting so I do not care at all about the fact that Gaolang lost and I have no issue saying he jobbed that fight.
I still don't see how talking about the format of the tournament has any relevance on our discussion about the meaning of jobbing. I have nothing to say about that, so why are you bringing this up?
But let's conclude this; you do an incredibly poor job of explaining what you mean by jobbing, but reading through the reddit thread I see a simple and very acceptable definition: jobbing is losing to hype up another character. If that's the main view, I can definitely accept it and I would say that Ippo has jobbed twice (and I'm not talking about the Guevara fight, because Ippo fought so poorly he wasn't hyping up anyone). Indeed, when you consider the tournament format between Purgatory and Kengan, since fighters only have one match, there's no reason whatsoever to hype a fighter because we're not expecting them to fight again so you could say that there will be no jobbing whatsoever this tournament (unless we discover certain fighters are linked to the nefarious cloning plot, in which case I expect they'll win and be hyped because they're going to have to be defeated later). (And please do note that I mention the tournament format and make a point about what jobbing means.) I still think that jobbing to describe authors using certain characters to lose fights is acceptable, and you'll note that there is no negative connotation for a fighter when I say they're jobbing, but as it's not the main view, then clearly I'm the one in the wrong. Next time, I'll say: "Is Rihito going to loooooooose?
" instead of job and I'll keep saying: "Gaolang lost in the lamest way possible." (as I believe I said something like that a few chapters ago) , and I'll use job when a character is actually being hyped by a loss.And with that, I can say that I definitely didn't job this argument. B)
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@Kireato
Hmmm, thanks I guess? This is quite a messy comment, you admit I am right then tell me I didn't understand you and how badly I explained myself, you even tell me you have nothing to say about the format of the tournament then say it anyway. Finally you finish on a self-congratulatory sentence to make a point that even though I am right you totally didn't lose the debate. Do you want a medal? For winning an argument on Mangadex? Because if that's what you want I immediately concede defeat. You should have told me earlier.
But there might be, maybe, some truth in that I have not explained myself very well so I will try to clear some things before saying goodbye.
I don't think Ippo is a jobber but
Then when I talked about Gaolang I didn't notice that you thought his performance was really bad because he fought a scrawny dude. I mean, there have been far, far more ridiculous shit in the Kengan series than a little scrawny dude being super strong and fighting toe-to-toe with far heavier characters. Like, the author explains Cosmos wrestling guys who have twice his weight with "he is a prodigy" when wrestling have weightclasses for a reason. But everyone has his/her own line for tolerance and if yours is on weight difference when assassins are fighting with hair and blades of bones then I'm ok with it. But don't be hard on me for not guessing, this is a strange line to draw.
That last sentence was word for word what you said but hey, as long as you understood it in the end. "I definitely didn't job this argument". Sure you didn't buddy, here is your medal.
Hmmm, thanks I guess? This is quite a messy comment, you admit I am right then tell me I didn't understand you and how badly I explained myself, you even tell me you have nothing to say about the format of the tournament then say it anyway. Finally you finish on a self-congratulatory sentence to make a point that even though I am right you totally didn't lose the debate. Do you want a medal? For winning an argument on Mangadex? Because if that's what you want I immediately concede defeat. You should have told me earlier.
But there might be, maybe, some truth in that I have not explained myself very well so I will try to clear some things before saying goodbye.
I don't think Ippo is a jobber but
had he won that fight and continued to win his next fights as a worse fighter fighting worse opposition then he would be closer to a jobber for me. Because the regression means he is set up to be defeated again. The opposite example is Minoru (the MC of the karate manga I mentioned) who I wouldn't define as a jobber no matter how many times he loses since he improves every time and is obviously destined to greatness.
Then when I talked about Gaolang I didn't notice that you thought his performance was really bad because he fought a scrawny dude. I mean, there have been far, far more ridiculous shit in the Kengan series than a little scrawny dude being super strong and fighting toe-to-toe with far heavier characters. Like, the author explains Cosmos wrestling guys who have twice his weight with "he is a prodigy" when wrestling have weightclasses for a reason. But everyone has his/her own line for tolerance and if yours is on weight difference when assassins are fighting with hair and blades of bones then I'm ok with it. But don't be hard on me for not guessing, this is a strange line to draw.
Eh, I retract what I said, you are clearly twisting my words here. I have no problem saying that Gaolang lost and that it was well deserved in the context of the tournament. The rules were not hidden and he knew them. But while Gaolang got tricked he was winning the fight and close to finishing it, hence why I said he "won" with quotes, to point that out. Carlos used the ring out as a last ressort when he understood he would lose the fight. For that reason I do not count this as a defeat in the context of the larger picture although he did get lucky in that fight. Gaolang is not a jobber to me because what matters is the performance, not the result. Same thing with RIhito really, but you didn't bring him up here.
In my first comment I used Hassad as an example, a character whose only purpose was to hype up the bodyguards. In my second comment I said :
That last sentence was word for word what you said but hey, as long as you understood it in the end. "I definitely didn't job this argument". Sure you didn't buddy, here is your medal.
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I came to the comment to see funny comments, but here I am reading friggin essays
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Nobody said it?
Okay I'm going to say it.
SIXTY NINE
Okay I'm going to say it.
SIXTY NINE
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@0takuDragonSlayer I get it, what's great with writing those "essays" is that I can copy-paste next time (I need to find a good reason for why I took the time ti find those reddit comments during my weekend haha)
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page 3 : this joke is more clearer in the raw scans :
- narushima : KANEDA-SAN , .............. ( 10 seconds later ) ....................... , and himuro .
a running gag in both kengan ashura and omega is that no one can not remember the name of the jobber himuro .
and narushima only adds "-san" to the family name of kaneda , meaning he respects kaneda , but looks down on himuro .
page 13 : lihito is an idiot for being stepped on many times like that . falcon can not actually fly , he can not change his falling direction , he can only fall straight down , so lihito just needs to step out of the way instead of standing still like that .
page 16 : ninja art , toxic finger ... er , i mean , toxic avenger .
- narushima : KANEDA-SAN , .............. ( 10 seconds later ) ....................... , and himuro .
a running gag in both kengan ashura and omega is that no one can not remember the name of the jobber himuro .
and narushima only adds "-san" to the family name of kaneda , meaning he respects kaneda , but looks down on himuro .
page 13 : lihito is an idiot for being stepped on many times like that . falcon can not actually fly , he can not change his falling direction , he can only fall straight down , so lihito just needs to step out of the way instead of standing still like that .
page 16 : ninja art , toxic finger ... er , i mean , toxic avenger .
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Of course the weak bitches at purgatory use poison
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