Boukensha ni Naritai to Miyako ni Deteitta Musume ga S Rank ni Natteta - Vol. 3 Ch. 13

[77BLc9JwJGpLVARkamJx]

>no longer my daughter
Hehehe.

 

[talisay999]

impressive

 

[Rockdrop]

@mommunism You make it sound like "negative reinforcement" is always something extreme that should be avoided at all cost unless you're one of the the nigh extinct competent parents. lol.
A simple google of the term made your post a joke.

 

[undercurses]

so red ogre and his companion meet demon lord when he is still a new adventurer and gotten away safely but for the price of his feet?
wasn't that kind of burying the world best adventurer?

 

[MegaXL]

He really needs to get his rank re-evaluated, doesn't he?

 

[shoker]

Angie's Fathercon powers grew five times that day.

 

[Nematoda]

truly an 'ogre'....
if he didn't lose his leg and still active as adventure till now, he absolutely at Rank S on his prime....
but because of his retirement he met his daughter....
he become pessimist that he's weak, but even Rank A cannot defeat him and Rank S cannot defeat him so easily....
makes me wanna see when he gonna join the raid and makes every adventures "jaw dropping" by Rank E Red Ogre performance..

well seeing his daughter didn't even aware of danger, become conceited, 'tough parenting' is a must, giving soft treatment just makes her judgement more clouded, so he need to wake her up...
he finally learn to be "good parent"... spoiling is good and all, but everything that excessive is bring a bad result, same as "tough parenting"....

 

[mommunism]

@Rockdrop I'm not making it sound extreme, although the example is the manga is very extreme. I'm just saying it's less effective than positive reinforcement. For example, there was a study about workplaces where the highest productivity was found in an environment with about 5:1 positive to negative reinforcement and the lowest was like 3:1 negative to positive. The example in the chapter is like 100:1 negative to positive. He says he will disown her as negative, then says good job as positive. Keep thinking you know everything from 5 seconds on Google, though.

 

[Darkmint13]

Look. This isn't negative or positive reinforcement. This was an ultimatum. This world is life or death. He didn't want his daughter to die so he wanted her to stop the job that would get her killed.

In our world, improper use of negative reinforcement has long lasting effects on a child. But it's hard to think about things like this in their world when a world like this has to worry about monsters and demon lords on to of things like famine and disease.

Also sloth is in the eye of the beholder. I could walk more than thirty minutes to get to work but I chose to use a car, which takes 15 minutes instead. I have a coworker who uses a bike to get to work. To her I'm probably lazy. The problem sometimes is that people equate efficiency with lazy. Why should I clean my house every single day. When I know it's going to get very dirty during the week (because Monday thru Friday in my house are high traffic days.) Why not just wait until Friday night so that it actually stays clean until Monday?

 

[TheGTF]

@Rockdrop and @Darkmint13 It's not even negative reinforcement; that's when you remove a noxious stimulus in response to the desired behavior occurring, thus training the behavior to happen should the subject want the unpleasant thing to cease. Belgrieve here was adding a noxious stimulus to discourage a behavior- her sloppiness is to decrease otherwise he rejects their familial relationship: operant conditioning calls that punishment. Reinforcement encourages behaviors, positive or negative is whether you are adding or removing thing as reward for a desired behavior; punishment is to weaken behaviors by adding or removing something in response.

 

[mommunism]

@Darkmint13 This is a non sequitur piled on top of a misinterpretation. An ultimatum NECESSARILY reinforces an action, and in this case it's clearly negative. As I already explained in this thread, negative reinforcement (rather, in this case, punishment, i.e. threatening to disown someone for taking a fight lightly) is not effective. It encourages the behavior it's supposed to be discouraging. It would probably make her less motivated to fight well if anything.

@TheGTF Right, I meant punishment / negative feedback, not negative reinforcement. It's been a while since I've studied this stuff, but the argument is the same.

 

[SteveJust]

He was acting less as a parent and more as a drill sergeant; training her to react in a certain way instinctively in situations where hesitation means death.

 

[shanoc5902]

@mommunism "First of all, we don't know whether he's tried positive reinforcement" Have you even read this manga? We've seen him giving positivie reinforcement throughout the ENTIRE series, for you to sit here and say that we don't know if he's tried it, despite everything he's done, how we've seen her respond to him, heck how he immediately turned apologetic after he saw that he was wrong and that she's stronger than she was showing suggests that YOU'RE the one who's lacking in parenting skills if anyone. Get off of your high horse, you're clearly flat out determined to call him a bad parent, he wasn't even using negative reinforcement as you so call, he was being strict, because he wasn't punishing her he was laying ground rules, "Get stronger, get more resolve, stop being an adventurer, or else." which given that he had multiple times told her that she could die follows with what he was doing. What's next, you're going to say that not letting children go and drink sewage is bad? She was actively risking her life and he was laying ground rules about making sure she could cash in checks she was making. This wasn't a punishment, this wasn't a teaching moment, this was laying down rules, the fact that you can't tell a difference while ignoring the ENTIRE series before this one chapter speaks volume.

 

[HuevoPodrido]

So cool, so warm.
Thanks you for the chapter, despite the sabotage!

 

[Siquall]

Poor guy fighted a demon lord Day one when others new adventurers were busy fighting slime or goblins.

What bad luck.

Also, i want to see jim and Angie together in a party, he could protect her better like this

 

[TheGTF]

@shanoc5902 Since this entire subject was about operant conditioning in regard to teaching behaviors and Belgrieve's application of it, yes he is using punishment. He is taking away familial affection from her to discourage her sloppy swordsmanship- that is punishment by definition. He wants the behavior removed, that is what punishment does. Reinforcement would be if he wanted to encourage a specific behavior- positive would be indulging her with hugs for her compliance; a negative example would be he stops nagging her about her footwork when she does it right. He is absolutely using punishment here, and since Angie is rather emotionally needy in regard to his affection, it works to get her to stop the undesired behavior: she stops half-assing it with him when being disowned was sitting on the table.

How good of a parenting method that is could be argued, since going that far may or may not be too harsh considering Angie knows she was abandoned as an infant and being forced to experience such abandonment again could be construed as abusive- but I am not going to argue either way on that side of things I care more about the figurative Skinner Box she's being shoved in right now. Even then, this is presently an isolated point of data and conditioning is a process over a length of time- one time alone does not make or break anything in this sense.

 

[mommunism]

@shanoc5902 I wasn't saying he hasn't tried an instance of positive reinforcement, I was saying he hasn't tried a training method that was mostly positive overall. You cannot effectively learn from a single instance, you learn from a ratio over time. This was clearly the context of your previous comment as well, was it not? The rest of your rant pointlessly builds on this misunderstanding and adds even more awful arguments. You don't spank a child for drinking sewage water. You tell them what it does to their body. If you have a kid who does drugs, do you know what punishing them does? For the average case, it just encourages them to try and hide their use of the drugs, distancing them from you in the process. I'm sure plenty of parents would call that "laying down the rules."

 

[Petnavis]

@mommunism lol, okay, go tell that to all of the soldiers in the armies across the world since the dawn of man that and see if even one of them agrees with you. The fight was not about raising a child into a proper person, it was about making sure your child will survive in life and death situations. She is essentially a soldier that will be and has been put in dangerous situations that are life-threatening and to train a soldier you mostly use the stick, not the carrot, and the father has been mostly using the carrot which is why she is in disbelief when she was given that ultimatum because she refuses to believe her father would ever do that because he HAS NEVER DONE THAT BEFORE. There's a reason training for soldiers is dehumanizing and severe - because it fucking works and has works since war has existed. Whether you think it's effective or not is irrelevant because the stats back up that this is how you train someone in the context of war/survival.

 

[Miriable]

She just has a blind spot for her father. He never saw her at her 100% because she always sparred with him believing he was unassailable. Only when he raised the emotional stakes was he able to see that she really is S-ranked for a reason. His method was a bit cruel, but it worked!

Also, he almost certainly had no intention to totally disown her, because he knew she couldn't accept that outcome. At the very worst, he'd insist she stayed home until she could get to his level. (Actually at the VERY VERY worst she would lose and then run off anyway, and he'd have to accept that she loved adventuring more than him. But ha ha ha at the thought that she loves anything in the world more than her dad!)

 

[Velsy]

Ah geez, He encounter a demon lord. Was able to save his comrades and he got away alive but with the cost of his leg. It was no simple beast. It makes sense why hes this strong. He was an S grader who survived a demon lord attack, but cause he was young, he wasnt experienced enough and took a crippling blow before he could reach his potential. thus ended his career. Still waiting to find out if the "guys" he saved went on to be those retired S graders we saw in teh story before.

Yeah, I dont care how cruel that was, but he needed to get it across, this chapter him recalling his experience with a demonlord was that driving force. You gonna meet something terrifying in the line of work as S grade. Everyones going to look to her. His personal experience is proof enough. They are out there. and sif the Lady Winters warning wasnt enough. That should be weighing in the back of his mind too.