Boushoku-Hi no Ken - Vol. 2 Ch. 8 - [Like Zariosu]

[Faryshta]

@jonsmth

> He went into a normal house and then it went up in flames.

No dude, a dungeon is a dangerous place full of monsters and that guy chased for a high ranking monster for the money.

And no its not manslaughter. Manslaughter would be if the MC actions lead to the douche getting in danger or harmed. Too differentiate ask this 3 questions.

- Was MC ever responsible for douche safety?
- Did MC participate on the decision making process which lead to douche beingin danger?
- Did MC had intention of harming douche and it went out of control?

Those 3 questions cover for the 3 forms of manslaughter covered by law. If the answer of any of those questioon is NO then it proves its not manslaughter. Since the answer to all 3 is NO it means you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Degernase]

@jonsmth
I thought I'd tag out of this discussion because it felt like I had presented a perfectly reasonable argument and @Faryshta added to it as well.

But okay here we go, we can all be agree on that Dean's (EDIT: hypothetical) action (of abandoning Gilbert) would in no way be a chargeable offense by modern laws, correct?

Then this is all about one's moral philosophy which is subjective, and I feel like my last comment perfectly outlined why the MC is a fucking retard if he believes this is the "morally good" choice. Altruism doesn't only come in the most extreme forms like many hack manga writers like to pretend it does.

Disregarding whether Gilbert deserved to be rescued, what about the non-combatant blacksmith Dean put at risk would he fail?
What about Gilberts future victims (we've already seen the catgirl) that will suffer because Dean 1. Saves Gilbert and 2. wont speak out about his behavior?

You could absolutely argue that letting Gilbert suffer the consequences of his own actions would the the altruistic choice.



EDIT: Another analogy just for the flavor of it.

You're walking across the street with your GF in hand. You spot a cripple in a wheelchair in front of you and realize it's the dude that killed your father and raped your mother.
-A buss is approaching the three of you at breakneck speed

You decide to:
1. Let go of your GF's hand, jump and push the wheelchair out of the way with all your might whilst praying that the buss manages to break or avoid you in time.

2. With your loved one in hand, leap away from where the buss is heading.

Clearly you're an evil maniac that's committing manslaughter if you choose 2, and a true hero if you choose 1.

 

[Faryshta]

@Degernase actually the MC did broke a law by the standards of the world he is living.

The MC is responsible for his party safety, he must put his party above everything else includiing other parties and yes his own sense of justice. Even if he philosiphically wanted to help he commited a crime by helping.

About your analogy, it misses one spot. The rapist is not in a wheelchair and will continue to rape and murder if he gets rescued. Other than that I fully agree that option 2 would be manslaughter by gross negligence.

 

[Degernase]

@Faryshta

actually the MC did broke a law by the standards of the world he is living.

The MC is responsible for his party safety, he must put his party above everything else includiing other parties and yes his own sense of justice. Even if he philosiphically wanted to help he commited a crime by helping.

Sorry, I meant that if he had not intervened, he'd by our modern standards, not be breaking any laws, as you correctly pointed out in your previous post.

Whether he broke the laws of his world by intervening and putting his own party at risk, I'm not sure. From a moral standpoint I agree with you but I don't know if they've mentioned any laws or "adventurer codes".

About your analogy, it misses one spot. The rapist is not in a wheelchair and will continue to rape and murder if he gets rescued. Other than that I fully agree that option 2 would be manslaughter by gross negligence.

I decided to put him in a wheelchair to clarify his helpless position (like literally being under the foot of a hobgoblin), besides you can both rape and murder people even if you're bound to a wheelchair.

Other than that I fully agree that option 2 would be manslaughter by gross negligence.

No, wait. Walk me through your logic.
How can choosing to save the life of yourself and a loved one from a situation not of your making, rather than abandoning your companion and risking both your life and theirs in order to at best save a total stranger? I thought we were on the same page regarding this matter.


To add yet another analogy to this mess.
Is everyone witnessing someone sitting on the train tracks, yet not tackling the person out of the way from a speeding train, guilty of manslaughter via negligence?
(HINT: Legally, they're not. Morally, who gives a fuck LMAO)

 

[Faryshta]

@Degernase My bad I missread the option 2. I though you meant you force yourself and your loved one to leap into helping the wheelchair guy. Which is basically what the MC did this chapter.

Again my bad I checked again and I agree with your logic.

 

[Degernase]

@Faryshta

My bad I missread the option 2. I though you meant you force yourself and your loved one to leap into helping the wheelchair guy. Which is basically what the MC did this chapter.

Oh, no problem. Though I do think there's some minor nuance between letting go of her hand or dragging her into the jump.

I say minor because even though he's not forcing her to fight alongside him, it's not like she'll choose to run away without helping her beloved childhood friend. So he's pretty much forcing her via moral obligation, which relatively speaking is better than physically forcing her, but not necessarily by a large margin.

 

[jonsmth]

@Faryshta @Degernase
What were we even arguing about anyway? It's not like I agree entirely with Dean's ethics, but I was under the impression that people don't understand his philosophy and simply dismiss this as bad writing.

Let me just address these ones...

Was MC ever responsible for douche safety? ...

I mentioned that in his own mind, it was. He really wasn't responsible for Gilbert. Nobody would blame him for leaving him behind. He knows that. However, he took it upon himself to save him. To him, he would feel bad about it if he didn't act to put it simply.

But okay here we go, we can all be agree on that Dean's (EDIT: hypothetical) action (of abandoning Gilbert) would in no way be a chargeable offense by modern laws, correct?

Yeah. Modern laws wasn't even relevant though I did use it to try to relate it to Dean's thinking.

what about the non-combatant blacksmith Dean put at risk would he fail?

It never occurred to me that Manhi was a non-combatant. What she's using is certainly not a blacksmith's hammer. While she took on the role of the porter, it didn't mean that she couldn't fight or defend herself.

You could absolutely argue that letting Gilbert suffer the consequences of his own actions would the the altruistic choice.

I get the impression that Dean isn't all about altruism. The only thing that mattered was a path of not sacrificing anyone and having to stick to that path he chose.
As for myself, I think there would be better ways for Gilbert to get his just desserts; getting killed by monsters seems too merciful.

Another analogy just for the flavor of it.

Well, that wheelchair has to be between you and the bus and probably weighs enough to considerably slow down the bus too. You and your GF knows this and you would be acting with this in mind. Also, you have super strength and you could probably stop the bus by yourself.

Too surreal? I don't think there's a good analogy that can fully describe the situation Dean was in. We can't just make an analogy only for certain aspects of the situation. We'd probably just be nitpicking on the details instead of moving forward with the discussion.

 

[Faryshta]

@jonsmth the MC philosophy of puting his party in danger to save a backstabbing murderer IS bad writing. Plus you made the claim that abandoning the douche would be manslaughter so @degernase and I have proved its not the case.

> > Was MC ever responsible for douche safety? ...
> I mentioned that in his own mind, it was.

Bad writting. There is 0 reasons for the MC to feel responsible for something he was never responsible.

> Modern laws wasn't even relevant though

The term of manslaughter is relatively modern. In medieval times involuntary murder was not even a crime.

> It never occurred to me that Manhi was a non-combatant.

She is a blacksmith without combat training or experience.

> What she's using is certainly not a blacksmith's hammer.

So? Carrying a weapons for self defense doesn't make you a combatant.

> The only thing that mattered was a path of not sacrificing anyone and having to stick to that path he chose.

Having the protagonist use that mentality without realistically building why is bad writing. And abandoning douchelord is not sacrifIcing anyone or anything since douchellord was never a responsibility of the MC.

> Also, you have super strength and you could probably stop the bus by yourself.

Except no. The MC risked his and the blacksmith life to help thus failing his actual responsibilities of protecting his actual party.

 

[jonsmth]

@Faryshta

the MC philosophy of puting his party in danger to save a backstabbing murderer IS bad writing. Plus you made the claim that abandoning the douche would be manslaughter so degernase and I have proved its not the case.

They weren't exactly in danger. Not with the power they have. At the very least, not much more danger as when they first entered the dungeon.
Ethics is not absolute. It doesn't matter what my and your ethics are. All I was trying to do is explain the credibility of this writing - why it holds some suspension of disbelief - by trying to relate what was Dean thinking with some familiar terms.

There is 0 reasons for the MC to feel responsible for something he was never responsible.

But it was right there - leave behind one guy so they can escape with ease. (also, he got to see how the Maimai fights) He felt that he would be sacrificing someone.

She is a blacksmith without combat training or experience.

This is just an assumption based on her profession. However, she was able to whack that one goblin with finesse. I don't believe that she went in there with a giant hammer not knowing how to use it. Plenty of fantasy themed stories had fighting blacksmiths.

So? Carrying a weapons for self defense doesn't make you a combatant.

Combatant is a weird term to use here anyway. Having a non-fighting role doesn't mean that the other person can't fight. Also, monsters don't distinguish between party members. That non-combatant status went out the window when Mahni took on that one goblin to support Dean.

Having the protagonist use that mentality without realistically building why is bad writing.

Well, this is practically just the beginning of the story. It's their first adventure. What would you have wanted? A flashback? Actually, a little bit of it was hinted there with that image of someone handing a book. In a way, we're just being introduced to what sort of character Dean is.

Except no. The MC risked his and the blacksmith life to help thus failing his actual responsibilities of protecting his actual party.

But he has "super strength"! He can summon a demon lord!
He hasn't failed his responsibilities yet. They are still alive.

 

[Faryshta]

@jonsmth

> They weren't exactly in danger. Not with the power they have.

Yes they were. Seriously if you are going to lie even about something this obvious why bother replying?

 

[jonsmth]

@Faryshta
If you're gonna quote that, better include the whole thing:

At the very least, not much more danger as when they first entered the dungeon.

Also, I don't get why would I be lying about this when instead I could be simply wrong and you all you have to do is just point how I was wrong.
We all know from the beginning that he has access to a demon lord's power by being able to summon/materialize her. Page 11 shows that he thinks that he can do it. He always has that trump card. Dean wouldn't have taken the extra risk if the summon wasn't available at the time - it would be reckless. He said it himself, ideals don't make him instantly stronger, he needs power.

 

[Faryshta]

@jonsmth then you admit he still put his party on an unneeded danger thus failing his actual responsibilities.

 

[jonsmth]

@Faryshta
All danger is unneeded. It was just that he could afford to take the risk. And yeah, he did take more risk than he should have if we're thinking about it pragmatically. They only needed to test out the weapon and maybe hunt a Maimai as an optional side quest. Like I said, he's greedy.

There is also nothing said about actual (or absolute) responsibilities in the manga. It's not clear what their laws and code are. For the most part, they're on their own. Survival of the party is just a given as it means a more opportunities for glory and fortune in the future... and for some adventurers, employment and job security when they become eligible for enlistment. We know some of the characters' motivations, and as for Dean, his is for glory and personal achievement. According to him, just like Zarios the Swordmaster (whoever that is).

 

[Degernase]

@jonsmth

Ethics is not absolute. It doesn't matter what my and your ethics are. All I was trying to do is explain the credibility of this writing - why it holds some suspension of disbelief - by trying to relate what was Dean thinking with some familiar terms.

I already stated the point of view I'm arguing from in my third post

"this is all about one's moral philosophy which is subjective, and I feel like my last comment perfectly outlined why the MC is a fucking retard if he believes this is the "morally good" choice."

Like Faryshta touched upon, his extreme view on morality is only vaguely defined by him looking up to some fairytale hero we know next to nothing about. He only talks about his feelings and wanting to be the embodiment of righteousness just like his man crush, and no, him acknowledging that they might not be realistic ideals to live up to is not good enough.

And if the author can't portray a character's motive in a way where you can at the very least go: "well I don't agree with him but at least I understand where he's coming from", it's bad writing. Now clearly you see it that way, but the feeling is not shared.

Well, this is practically just the beginning of the story. It's their first adventure. What would you have wanted? A flashback? Actually, a little bit of it was hinted there with that image of someone handing a book. In a way, we're just being introduced to what sort of character Dean is.

Why rush and put him into a situation where his ideals are questioned to such a degree this early on if you (the author) feel like you haven't had enough time to build up his character to the reader?
Also there's the saying when it comes to writing "show, don't tell". MC is just telling us how he feels, yet we've not really seen it reflected in his behavior or how past events could have made him like that (other than a fairytale).

It never occurred to me that Manhi was a non-combatant. What she's using is certainly not a blacksmith's hammer. While she took on the role of the porter, it didn't mean that she couldn't fight or defend herself.

She has the confidence to take care of a single goblin, I'm pretty sure even MC was capable of such a minor feat before he got the demon power, and he as a porter counted as a non-combatant.

They weren't exactly in danger. Not with the power they have. At the very least, not much more danger as when they first entered the dungeon.

First of all, being aware of your own plotarmor is breaking the 4th wall. Secondly, while he may have gotten stronger during the journey down, so have the monsters.

Lastly, if he was sure of his power and it being an easy win, there would be no reason for him to hesitate.

There is also nothing said about actual (or absolute) responsibilities in the manga. It's not clear what their laws and code are. For the most part, they're on their own.

I'm arguing from the perspective of what I would consider common sense and my own take on what's moral.
I only brought up responsibility before to counter your "murder by negligence" argument, and because I'd consider it his moral obligation to ensure the safety of his travel companions over strangers (or in this case, enemy).

 

[Faryshta]

@jonsmth

> It was just that he could afford to take the risk

No he couldn't. The blacksmith had to risk her life too.

 

[jonsmth]

@Degernase

I already stated the point of view I'm arguing from in my third post

The quoted text you're responding to wasn't addressed to you. I was getting the impression that Faryshta seemed to be insisting on absolutes, and that ethics has to be proven. Like you said, it is subjective. I was trying to get him on the same page.

...his extreme view on morality is only vaguely defined by him looking up to some fairytale hero we know next to nothing about. He only talks about his feelings and wanting to be the embodiment of righteousness just like his man crush, and no, him acknowledging that they might not be realistic ideals to live up to is not good enough.

And if the author can't portray a character's motive in a way where you can at the very least go: "well I don't agree with him but at least I understand where he's coming from", it's bad writing. Now clearly you see it that way, but the feeling is not shared.

Why rush and put him into a situation where his ideals are questioned to such a degree this early on if you (the author) feel like you haven't had enough time to build up his character to the reader?
Also there's the saying when it comes to writing "show, don't tell". MC is just telling us how he feels, yet we've not really seen it reflected in his behavior or how past events could have made him like that (other than a fairytale).

I went and read back earlier chapters and I realize that we were given some backstory... but only 1 page of it. That might have been enough for the purpose of character building, but probably not enough for this kind of medium (manga). I blame it on poor adaptation. His ideals has some emotional basis (possibly years of grief and disappointment) and it didn't come out of nowhere. His parents basically died due to adventurers: Dean's mother was left to die from demonic beasts coming out of a labyrinth, and his father was killed by his own companions for a trinket. Dean wanted to be different from those adventurers.

I have to admit, I was only arguing on the basis of what was shown in this chapter alone. 1 page is easily forgettable, and there wasn't enough emotional investment for it to stick. I couldn't even connect that image of the book with the backstory...

She has the confidence to take care of a single goblin, I'm pretty sure even MC was capable of such a minor feat before he got the demon power, and he as a porter counted as a non-combatant.

Well, we don't know what Dean's capabilities were. He had the insight, but nobody would take it as nobody trusted him for anything other than his ability as a pack mule. Dean was level 8 at the time too, so him being able to handle the level 10 goblin could probably be more than a minor feat.

I don't think I've seen Mahni's level, so it's hard to make a comparison. All we've seen is that she sent that goblin flying.

Furthermore, party members can take multiple roles; it's not like Dragon Quest style job classes where they're stuck with the job until a class change. If we're to speculate, this means that the designated porter can be called upon to the fight to help as needed.... just like what happened here.

I'm arguing from the perspective of what I would consider common sense and my own take on what's moral.
I only brought up responsibility before to counter your "murder by negligence" argument, and because I'd consider it his moral obligation to ensure the safety of his travel companions over strangers (or in this case, enemy).

You're responding to something which I said in response to Faryshta.
Anyway, like you said, it's subjective. Apparently, in this particular fantasy world, adventurers are typically rather amoral. Our common sense is irrelevant here.

First of all, being aware of your own plotarmor is breaking the 4th wall.

He has a demon lord at his beck and call - that's pretty much plot armor.

Secondly, while he may have gotten stronger during the journey down, so have the monsters.

But they will always be weaker than the Gluttony Empress Beelzebub. He could probably beat at least one group with her help no matter how strong they are.

Lastly, if he was sure of his power and it being an easy win, there would be no reason for him to hesitate.

He hesitated because Mahni told him to retreat, reminded him of his resentment towards Gilbert, and that it would be okay to leave him behind.
He used the appraisal skill first which seems to me he already was intent on saving Gilbert before Mahni grabbed his wrist. I don't think Mahni has seen Beelzebub fight yet at this point.
It looked to me that the manga didn't depict any hesitation after seeing the monster levels and abilities. He only reacted to the knowledge that the Maimai has an ability that makes it invulnerable to physical attacks.

@Faryshta

No he couldn't. The blacksmith had to risk her life too.

He looked at their stats and figured out that he could take them and acted accordingly by summoning the demon.
Mahni is taking on only 1 goblin. She sent it flying. I don't think she thinks she's risking her life any more than she has when she decided to go adventuring with Dean.

 

[Faryshta]

@jonsmth what YOU think is irrelevant. The fact is that she is risking her life because the MC failed to fulfill his responsibilities.

Thats not even up for debate its a fact that her life was in danger. And its a fact that said danger was best avoided.

 

[Degernase]

@jonsmth

The quoted text you're responding to wasn't addressed to you

You're responding to something which I said in response to Faryshta.

My bad, I mostly responded in order to clarify my own stance on the subject in order to avoid further confusion.

Dean was level 8 at the time too, so him being able to handle the level 10 goblin could probably be more than a minor feat.

That's assuming that levels are relative to a specific power curve rather than an addition to the base power of a race.
For example, a lvl 10 rat is always going to be worthless cannon fodder to a lvl 10 human, meanwhile a lvl 10 dragon will require an entire party of lvl 10 humans for them to even have a chance of beating it. (I'm applying game logic, but so is the manga).

Apparently, in this particular fantasy world, adventurers are typically rather amoral. Our common sense is irrelevant here.

No. The MC clearly cares about his childhood friend and common sense dictates that he'd treasure her safety over that of a stranger (isekai or not). Besides his personal relationship, how would people be able to form parties without the understanding that the in-group (as in the literal group) is more important than the out-group, assuming circumstances are that extreme?

He has a demon lord at his beck and call - that's pretty much plot armor.

It is. But either he acknowledges it and drops all the angst or acts as if he's not guaranteed to overcome all his hindrances.

It looked to me that the manga didn't depict any hesitation after seeing the monster levels and abilities. He only reacted to the knowledge that the Maimai has an ability that makes it invulnerable to physical attacks.

It has been shown that all her actions drain his mana, I assume the damage she takes would also make his mana pool suffer until he is no loner able to sustain her "phantom image" or whatever. That'd leave him with very little personal fighting power as well as 1 less ally on the field.

Mahni is taking on only 1 goblin. She sent it flying. I don't think she thinks she's risking her life any more than she has when she decided to go adventuring with Dean.

She flat out said that she can't deal with more than 1, we don't know how many times she struck it before "sending it flying".

 

[jonsmth]

@Faryshta

The fact is that she is risking her life because the MC failed to fulfill his responsibilities.

These "responsibilities" thing is never stated in the manga. What happened was that Dean was about to get flanked (those Goblins have "Silent Footstep"), and Mahni went to support him by intercepting that one goblin. As far as Dean is concerned, his "responsibilities" extends towards "strangers" and not just his party members. He aims to be an adventurer unlike those who had caused his parents to die. If there was anything he failed at, it was noticing the goblin using its silent footstep skill to sneak up behind him.

Thats not even up for debate its a fact that her life was in danger. And its a fact that said danger was best avoided.

Mahni could have just stayed at home. Read what I suggested again - she's already risking her life by going on an adventure with him. I bet she wasn't there to just check the performance of her weapon. At one point, she offered to take on the aggro from the skeleton monster. She almost got done in by the Golden Maimai too yet that didn't faze her. She was already in danger and it couldn't get any more dangerous for her. And if Dean falls in battle, who is going to drag him out of the labyrinth? Yet dean was already taking risks right from the start like fighting the skeleton monster alone.

@Degernase

That's assuming that levels are relative to a specific power curve rather than an addition to the base power of a race.
For example, a lvl 10 rat is always going to be worthless cannon fodder to a lvl 10 human, meanwhile a lvl 10 dragon will require an entire party of lvl 10 humans for them to even have a chance of beating it. (I'm applying game logic, but so is the manga).

Well, they do have ranks for monsters besides race and levels. The power curve is not clear though. If we're to relate to the emerging trend of anti-revisionist goblins of other series, we can't really anticipate if these goblins are meant to be fodder or actual threats.

No. The MC clearly cares about his childhood friend and common sense dictates that he'd treasure her safety over that of a stranger (isekai or not).

Well, after this, this is kind of questionable. Dean lives in a world where we can't apply our common sense, and Dean himself doesn't follow the common sense of his own world. If he were to stick to his principles, he can't make the choice to prioritize one person over another. Otherwise, he would fail to live up to his ideal.

how would people be able to form parties without the understanding that the in-group (as in the literal group) is more important than the out-group, assuming circumstances are that extreme?

They form parties on the basis of complementing each other's abilities or to fill roles it seems. If we're to take Gilbert to represent the common adventurer, I bet they wouldn't make a distinction between party member and bystander in extreme circumstances. I mean, they sacrifice their weakest party members already. And even in non-extreme circumstances, they would conspire against one member for just a trinket as in the case with Dean's father.

But either he acknowledges it and drops all the angst or acts as if he's not guaranteed to overcome all his hindrances.

He wanted to solo the monsters first and he has only started to build up his confidence with his own abilities. The demon was his trump card, not his main attack.

It has been shown that all her actions drain his mana, I assume the damage she takes would also make his mana pool suffer until he is no loner able to sustain her "phantom image" or whatever. That'd leave him with very little personal fighting power as well as 1 less ally on the field.

Yeah. It's not clear where the limit is though. He probably would have enough to wipe out 1 small group of monsters or 1 strong monster, or just enough to let them safely escape. The limit only makes it so that they can't take the offensive and do something crazy like take on the army alone, but just enough for plot armor.

She flat out said that she can't deal with more than 1, we don't know how many times she struck it before "sending it flying".

I meant to say that taking on 1 goblin shouldn't be any riskier than her not acting at all.
If she struck the goblin more than once, it wouldn't have been jumping at Dean before Mahni struck it.
Looking back at the chapter again, it looks like she even has fire magic and flammable throwables to complement it. She went in there expecting to fight and came prepared.
Heck, I bet with the right circumstances, she could probably even solo 2 goblins.

 

[Degernase]

@jonsmth

If he were to stick to his principles, he can't make the choice to prioritize one person over another. Otherwise, he would fail to live up to his ideal.

He wants to live life without regret and needless sacrifice. Assuming he's not a sociopath, attempting to save his enemy and having his childhood friend die in the process would be a far larger regret than abandoning the villain of a future arc to his own demise. Guess he went for the "no risk, no reward" gamble.

They form parties on the basis of complementing each other's abilities or to fill roles it seems. If we're to take Gilbert to represent the common adventurer, I bet they wouldn't make a distinction between party member and bystander in extreme circumstances. I mean, they sacrifice their weakest party members already. And even in non-extreme circumstances, they would conspire against one member for just a trinket as in the case with Dean's father.

Adventurers might be fine with betraying, but that doesn't mean they're fine with being betrayed. Why do you think Gilbert put pressure on Dean to not spread the truth if a reputation like that didn't matter?

I meant to say that taking on 1 goblin shouldn't be any riskier than her not acting at all.

What I'm saying is that MC forced her (MC might not care about her but she cares about him) into a situation where both their lives were put on the line. It was a fight she felt to be beyond their skill with nothing to gain.
She's obviously weaker than the MC and would not be able to protect herself at that dungeon floor, taking that into consideration and the fact she's partied with the MC, her safety is a burden that falls on the MC's shoulders, whether he wants to acknowledge it or not (may I remind you about his goal of "no regrets"?).