Boushoku-Hi no Ken - Vol. 2 Ch. 8 - [Like Zariosu]

[Faryshta]

@jonsmth

> These "responsibilities" thing is never stated in the manga.

MC is the party leader its stated since chapter 1 that makes him responsible of his party safety and he must put that above anything else. You think lying will help you win an argument?

 

[jonsmth]

@Degernase

He wants to live life without regret and needless sacrifice. Assuming he's not a sociopath, attempting to save his enemy and having his childhood friend die in the process would be a far larger regret than abandoning the villain of a future arc to his own demise. Guess he went for the "no risk, no reward" gamble.

Well, having his childhood friend die would also mean he failed in his path.
Speaking of sociopaths, he does remind me a bit of Emiya Shirou. His obsession with heroism has to do with trying to imitate Kiritsugu who died with a smile knowing that he at least saved one child.
It's likely that Dean's aspiration is probably an obsession too. If he were to be actually pragmatic, he would just rather be Mahni's house husband, yet he took on the thankless role of a pack mule with no future in sight.

Why do you think Gilbert put pressure on Dean to not spread the truth if a reputation like that didn't matter?

It probably mattered for Gilbert who wanted to get enlisted (iirc, that was his end goal).

It was a fight she felt to be beyond their skill with nothing to gain.

Just a detail, this probably changed when she witnessed Belzebuth in action.
What they also gain is the Golden Maimai, which didn't run away after it got friends.

She's obviously weaker than the MC

I actually wonder about that. Maybe she tagged along because she wanted to babysit him; he already almost died once before afterall. She's probably stronger than the level 8 Dean when he had just entered the Moose labyrinth (she had offensive magic and items to complement it). It also seems like Dean might be aware of her strength too as he isn't too worried about her (she already got attacked once). He's more worried about "adventuring" and whether he can solo monsters or not. He refused help from Mahni not to prevent her from getting in danger, but because he wanted to solo the skeleton.

her safety is a burden that falls on the MC's shoulders, whether he wants to acknowledge it or not

Maybe. Depending on how strong Mahni really is, it might be more of a 50-50 split in "responsibility". She would fight not just to defend herself, but to also support Dean.

@Faryshta

MC is the party leader its stated since chapter 1 that makes him responsible of his party safety and he must put that above anything else. You think lying will help you win an argument?

Since chapter 1? He's the pack mule. Gilbert seemed more like the party leader back then.
Even if Dean were the party leader, what would that mean for him? I don't recall anything stated as to what the responsibilities of a party leader is. The only role we know about is the porter who is in charge of the luggage and item collection. Maybe you could point to a panel in a page in a chapter as to where that is?
As far as I know, I'm not lying. But I can be wrong. It's more constructive to point out how I am wrong than to accuse me of lying. It's not going to support your case otherwise.

 

[Faryshta]

@jonsmth yes since chapter 1. The blacksmith is also a porter or pack mule as you call them. Making her fight or creating a situation where she needs to fight to survive is by definition a failure by the MC.

 

[jonsmth]

@Faryshta
No, Dean was not a party leader since chapter 1. He was the pack mule in chapter 1 and Gilbert seemed more commanding. Even Morgan, the other party member, is subservient to him.

Maybe you mean when Dean decided to go out on his own and Mahni tagged along? Well, "tagging along" does make it like Dean is the leader of their 2-person party. But the only thing that the party leader really does is decide where to go. The only role that was explicitly (self-)assigned was that of the porter. Also, I bet it's not like the party members have to stick with what the leader says. For one, party roles are not strictly adhered to, and it's possible for party members to have more than one role. It's not like they're regiments; parties may disband as quickly as they form, and essential roles have to be decided on the spot. And since party members can have multiple roles, it also means that the designated porter may be called upon or take the initiative to fight when they are able. As we've seen in the chapter where Dean fought the skeleton, Mahni offered to draw aggro at one point (tank? dodge tank?) though Dean refused because he wanted to solo the monster.

If you were following my posts, you would see that I'm questioning Mahni's true role and motivation.
She went in there prepared and even showed intent to join the fight even when she didn't need to. She took on the goblin not because she was defending herself, but because she was supporting Dean; sure enough, she took care of 1 goblin in no time. Perhaps she actually wanted to watch over Dean who almost died a while ago? Though saying that outright would hurt his pride. Dean is also strangely not too concerned over Mahni's safety. It's likely that he knows she's capable and trusts her strength. If Dean didn't trust her strength, they would have went home after they encountered the Golden Maimai for the first time; it was faster than he expected to the point where Dean couldn't defend Mahni against its attack. Yet, he wasn't worried and he decided to chase it anyway.

 

[Faryshta]

@jonsmth Do you have reading comprehension issues or you are just trying to spin what I said?

MC is a party leader right now and its been stated since chapter 1 that he is respoonsible for his party safety. I honestly don't know which part of that is hard to understand.

 

[jonsmth]

@Faryshta

Do you have reading comprehension issues or you are just trying to spin what I said?

Try reading what you wrote:

MC is the party leader its stated since chapter 1 that makes him responsible of his party safety and he must put that above anything else.

I even asked for clarification and this is all that you said:

yes since chapter 1

And you tell me I have reading comprehension issues or I'm trying to spin what you said?

Well, at least you made some changes on the following post.

its been stated since chapter 1 that he is respoonsible for his party safety.

Stated? I might have missed something, so you have to kindly point at what it is that I missed. Crop a page, upload the image, and post the url here if you will. Or are we even reading the same manga?

Where are you getting the idea that he's responsible for the party's safety in chapter 1? He was only a porter - nothing else. He only voiced his complaints to Gilbert, who was probably the party leader. Dean says that the situation is suspicious and that it was dangerous to continue on.

First, you say that the party leader is responsible for the party's safety. Now, you say that Dean is still responsible for the party's safety in chapter 1 where he doesn't seem to be the party leader. Am I getting this right?

Or maybe, the safety of the party is not the responsibility of the party leader alone? It's not tied to that particular role? Maybe ever party member is actually responsible for the party's safety? Let's exercise that thought experiment for a bit.

 

[Faryshta]

@jonsmth ok, lets add a punctuation sign. I admit it will be easier to understand.

> MC is the party leader. Its stated since chapter 1 that makes him responsible of his party safety and he must put that above anything else.

Creating a situation where the porter or pack mule has to fight is exactly what douchelord did on chapter 1 and what he wants to repeat with the new underage pack mule. MC saving douchelord creates a situation which forces the blacksmith or pack mule to fight for her live.

I literally can't make it simplier this time.

 

[jonsmth]

@Faryshta

Creating a situation where the porter or pack mule has to fight is exactly what douchelord did on chapter 1 and what he wants to repeat with the new underage pack mule. MC saving douchelord creates a situation which forces the blacksmith or pack mule to fight for her live.

Gilbert didn't walk into a situation where the porter had to fight. Nobody was fighting in that situation; they all have to run. But the thing is, he chose to sacrifice someone to make it easier for him to run away. It wasn't mere negligence.

On the other hand, Mahni was never fighting for her life. She was joining the fight.
She already offered to join the fight as soon as they encountered their first monster. Does that mean Dean already failed his responsibilities?
And later on, Mahni was forced to use her weapon to block an attack. Does that mean Dean already failed his responsibilities?
Dean failed to use Im (the appraisal skill) yet he still decided to chase the Golden Maimai despite the unknowns and the danger to Mahni. Does that mean Dean already failed his responsibilities?

btw, "pack mule" is just some old singleplayer RPG nomenclature; it can be lot more degrading than just "porter", "courier", or "carrier", but it's okay since there's no person behind the character other than the same player who is controlling all the other characters. While Dean was treated like a pack mule, I wouldn't want to call Mahni a pack mule.

Back again on the topic of roles. Party members can have multiple roles depending on which abilities they have. The porter having to join the fight doesn't necessarily mean that something has gone terribly wrong. On the contrary, the porter shouldn't be doing nothing in a battle. If anything I think they would have failed as an adventurer if they didn't help their party members. They aren't VIPs that are meant to be escorted. However, Carol and level 8 Dean are too weak to significantly contribute to fights, so they aren't likely expected to fight. Mahni might be a different case though.

 

[Degernase]

@jonsmth

Well, having his childhood friend die would also mean he failed in his path.

That's what I'm saying.

It probably mattered for Gilbert who wanted to get enlisted (iirc, that was his end goal).

That's definitely a part of it but even so no one wants to group up with someone that sacrifices a party member (leaving them to their own fate in order to escape is scummy but probably not entirely crossing the line to many adventurers, using them as bait however..)

Just a detail, this probably changed when she witnessed Belzebuth in action.
What they also gain is the Golden Maimai, which didn't run away after it got friends.

I'd be much more pleased if his motivation was the golden snail, what bothers me is that he did it to save Gilbert.

Maybe she tagged along because she wanted to babysit him; he already almost died once before afterall.

He refused help from Mahni not to prevent her from getting in danger, but because he wanted to solo the skeleton.

I absolutely think she's worried about him and tagged along to help him, I'd also judge her ability to be maybe slightly higher than Dean's before he got the demon. More importantly, she seems to have a pretty cool head which helps her in combat unlike Dean that acts like an emotional wreck no matter the situation.

This is indeed meant as a training/testing session for Dean, with her as backup only if he gets into too much trouble.

Maybe. Depending on how strong Mahni really is, it might be more of a 50-50 split in "responsibility". She would fight not just to defend herself, but to also support Dean.

From her point of view perhaps, but with the assistance of Glutony, she and Dean are now worlds apart when it comes to power level and Dean should very much be aware of that.

She went in there prepared and even showed intent to join the fight even when she didn't need to.

I know this is in response to Faryshta, but it's a fight she didn't want to take and judged risky. Though being the childhood friend of MC she would probably rather go down with him rather than run away, so in my mind Dean forced her hand.

Again, I'd be a lot less displeased with the MC going in without her consent if he had more confidence in his ability to easily deal with the situation. We all know Glutony is OP, but apparently only us and Glutony herself seem to be aware of this. For character development reasons, obviously (did I call the mangaka a hack writer yet? Because he is).

 

[jonsmth]

@Degernase

but even so no one wants to group up with someone that sacrifices a party member

Unless they may do it themselves. Morgan is complicit in this after all, yet he still parties up with Gilbert. The mutual trust would probably have come from dependency on the other's skills or talents that complements their own. Then again, if they do get found out that they treat their porters as slaves, then they won't get any more porters joining them.

I'd be much more pleased if his motivation was the golden snail, what bothers me is that he did it to save Gilbert.

He wasn't saving Gilbert. He was upholding his principles in pursuit of his ambitions. Saving Gilbert is just a means to that end.
But I get you. It's a bit frustrating how it all makes sense. I think that whole build up with Dean being made bait, Gilbert threatening to hurt Mahni, Carol being abused, and Gilbert's ridiculous faces was all for this character-defining moment.

From her point of view perhaps, but with the assistance of Glutony, she and Dean are now worlds apart when it comes to power level and Dean should very much be aware of that.

And that responsibility is expressed as him summoning Belzebuth at that moment.

but it's a fight she didn't want to take and judged risky

This was before she saw Belzebuth fight.

Again, I'd be a lot less displeased with the MC going in without her consent if he had more confidence in his ability to easily deal with the situation. We all know Glutony is OP, but apparently only us and Glutony herself seem to be aware of this.

Well, there's a first time for everything. He has so far only summoned her once in combat. He does have confidence in her strength, but he's not too sure of how long he can keep her manifested. Also, he still hasn't grown out of his poor weak porter habits and mentality yet. He was only able to push himself further when he reminded himself of his ambitions and his summon.

 

[Degernase]

@jonsmth

And that responsibility is expressed as him summoning Belzebuth at that moment.

This was before she saw Belzebuth fight.

He has so far only summoned her once in combat. He does have confidence in her strength, but he's not too sure of how long he can keep her manifested

Again, (outside of the reason for fighting) it's him acting despite lacking confidence in winning that's bothering me. We all know he had it in the bag, but neither she nor he did.

Also, he still hasn't grown out of his poor weak porter habits and mentality yet

I'm so tired of this trope where an MC gets ridiculous powers and acts like he just got a x0.2 powerup or something. I understand wanting to show progressive character growth and all, just wish they'd do it differently every once in a while.

He was only able to push himself further when he reminded himself of his ambitions and his summon.

It feels like we're at an impasse.
I agree with your statement but to reiterate, I roughly know what Dean supposedly believes in, but the author hasn't convinced me that Dean is able to justify these ideals even to himself.

I don't care whether I agree with an MC's code of ethics, personal goal, ambitions etc. I just want to know the logic or emotion MC applies to come to the conclusion in question. Preferably even letting us know what caused those emotions or made him think in such a specific manner.

And sure there's a time and place for backstory and character development etc. but moments like these carry no impact if we're not invested with the MC's personal struggles in advance (and I mean more along the lines of what formed him as a person, not a short episode of his life where he gets bullied at work).

 

[jonsmth]

@Degernase

I'm so tired of this trope where an MC gets ridiculous powers and acts like he just got a x0.2 powerup or something. I understand wanting to show progressive character growth and all, just wish they'd do it differently every once in a while.

Most of the time, the first thing they would do is test the limits of their new powers. Dean got a new sword. He decided to go into a labyrinth to try it out. He was gutsy enough that he went to solo a monster that is a level higher than he is. As for Belzebuth, he's already seen how strong she is and he roughly knows his limits with the summon spell. Even though he's doing his first real adventure, he still keeps his wits about about him - I guess that's one of the positives of keeping some of his porter mentality with him. A calculating protagonist is a bit more relatable/admirable than someone who gets full of himself just because he learned how to do a layup for the first time in basketball or learned a new pitching grip.

but the author hasn't convinced me that Dean is able to justify these ideals even to himself... And sure there's a time and place for backstory and character development etc. but moments like these carry no impact if we're not invested with the MC's personal struggles in advance (and I mean more along the lines of what formed him as a person, not a short episode of his life where he gets bullied at work).

All the important bits are in the first page of chapter 1. Yeah, there's barely any material for us readers to feel emotionally invested to. I know plenty of WN/LN pretty much read like logs or diaries, scarce of literary elegance, but a good adaptation would have had a chance to improve on that if it were ever lacking. Or perhaps it was actually there, but the adaptation postponed or skipped it for the sake of hook and pacing? Well, I haven't read the WN, so I can only speculate. Don't mind this, I'm just ranting.

 

[Degernase]

A calculating protagonist is a bit more relatable/admirable than someone who gets full of himself just because he learned how to do a layup for the first time in basketball or learned a new pitching grip.

I enjoy the calculating type of MC's but to me Dean feels more like the typical bundle of unconstrained emotions that just acts on a vague sense of feelings and justice.

The MC in https://mangadex.org/title/50185/the-most-notorious-talker-runs-the-world-s-greatest-clan is probably one of my favorite portrayals of the "cold and calculating" archetype.
Or rather the novel which the manga is adapted from, not started reading the manga yet since there are so few chapters.

Or perhaps it was actually there, but the adaptation postponed or skipped it for the sake of hook and pacing?

It's not impossible, a plentiful of new manga try their hardest to add an early chapter 1 hook that just ruins the entire pacing. Probably the competition over readers due to availability of other things to read is what drives this behavior.

But I guess it isn't all that surprising, often when I've found something a bit slower but still well paced and interesting, there are the inevitable comments of it being slow, boring and nothing happening.

https://mangadex.org/title/47504/tensei-goblin-dakedo-shitsumon-aru is a good example of this, I wouldn't say it completely ruined the pacing but it was such an obvious attempt at a hook.

"Hey mister mangaka, you're doing a great job but the pacing until we pass the introductory stuff is a bit slow, how about we start chapter 1 with 3 pages looking into the future where MC rides on the back of a drake, surrounded by harem candidates?"

 

[Zenbonzakura]

An MC like this is not worthy of such power

 

[sedition]

Eugh, everyone called it last chapter, we all knew he was going to be a complete pussy and go "NO! I can't let him die, I'm a good mary sue who helps everyone regardless of who it fucks over in the process." Really hoping bad guy survives now and fucks him over in the future because this brain dead MC deserves it.

 

[nazukixkurumi]

How should I say this, hes type of MC that watches and doesnt do shit when his girlfriend is getting banged right in front of him. What a fucking Beta move, man. You shouldve at least thought that if that asshole died then he cant threaten you and that blacksmith girl.

 

[lilo]

Are you fucking serious? He fucking abandon you in a dungeon, now you're telling me you gonna save his ass? What the actual fuck?

 

[Saiangeli]

dropped. artist is a fucking idiot. Mc is a dumb bitch

 

[InfiniteParadox]

people in this comment section need to calm down and take a deep breath.

 

[Rzelux]

well typical mc ruined my fun. i had a feeling this will go in that way, but i still trust seinen. change it to shounen please anyone. self righteous bastard mc.