Chounin A wa Akuyaku Reijou wo Doushitemo Sukuitai - Vol. 6 Ch. 26 - Apology and Declaration

[saebascans]

The campaign to keep it Estonia failed....

From next time

 

[Al_Kohlick]

She wouldn't let her classist attitude be an issue when it really matters, sure, and I reckon, if it was anyone other than Allen, she would have been acting more respectfully. But since she is a tsundere, her status is a convenient way to mask her feelings, and it makes her act more classist towards him.

She has not made it clear to him yet. Though obviously he doesn't mind either way

And my opinion of her is a sum of those insignificant but slightly excessive acts. Like the fact that she refers to him without honorifics (if the TL is to be believed) - unlike her friends, who refer to him as "Allen-kun"; or how she has borderline violently grabbed him on at least two occasions, with both of them having the understanding that he wouldn't dare grab her back; or the way she talks to him mostly in imperatives, and acts like it is a given that he will comply

Nah, it would've been one another thing to keep me up at night otherwise.

It's not something he wanted or needed, and it's not like they bowed to him. And if they do feel like bowing in his general direction was humiliating, that's one more reason for them to target him, so she's really putting him on the spot.

As far as I can see, "practically begging her father" is the full extent of things she did to keep him and his family safe, and it's not like the Duke needed much convincing. Making sure those who did a service to the duchy are not harmed as a consequence of said service is a bare minimum of gratitude I'd expect from anyone remotely decent. If anything, it is a pragmatic thing to do, otherwise it sends a message of "don't bother protecting interests of the duchy, we wouldn't give a fuck if something happens to you".

The way their relationship will conclude was obvious since Chapter 1 synopsis, we know how she feels about him and how he feels about her. He knows her personality and doesn't mind those quirks of her, this little is not nearly enough to turn him away from her. The thread is me explaining how I feel about her and her attitude, and it obviously doesn't resonate with people, but nevertheless, I see Anastasia as an ungrateful and entitled person, she is someone who will honor the deal and compensate you the way she considers appropriate, but she would show zero appreciation for your services unless she absolutely has to. She might have makings of a great lord, and she might be someone to bring happiness and prosperty to her subjects, but I wouldn't want to get personally involved with her. Unlike Allen.

Actually, after rereading some of the earlier chapters, I see her as a bigger tsun than I initially thought

Okay, that's a big nice toast of Ana-bashing you've served us here. Unfortunately, I'm not buying your reasoning. In fact, I'm even convinced you completely missed what her real mindset actually is. That's why I invite you to attentively re-read the whole story, especially the chapter 19 that gives important hints about her circumstances.

 

[mgRdr]

especially the chapter 19 that gives important hints about her circumstances.

Do tell me, what are those, and how do they justify her continuing treating Allen like a servant?

 

[Al_Kohlick]

Well, from the early stages of her existence Anastasia has only been used as a pawn in

A loveless political marriage.

Her engagement with the crown prince had been decided when she was only 8 years old. Since then, she has been raised, trained, and even hard-wired to become the future queen. No more, no less. Least we can say is that she not exactly had a normal childhood, if any childhood at all...

That means she has been programmed to always act dignified, never lose her cool, preserve her public image, remain distant with people (Covid would have had a hard time getting her ) and place the kingdom's interest above anything. In these domains, she's flawless and exceptionally mature for her age (about 16 y/o at that moment if I'm not wrong).

Meanwhile, I don't think she's as entitled as you say. Quite the opposite actually. She perfectly checked her privilege.

How fortunate I've been.

And then one fine day, a wrench named Allen was thrown into this well-oiled machinery.

At some moment in the story, Allen was the one walking on eggshells, but now it's Anastasia's turn. She's suddenly finding herself torn between her education and goals (see above) and her feelings for Allen. So, of course, she's still showing cold and distant in public, but she doesn't really have the choice at that point. Etiquette is still strong. And IMHO she's doing the best she reasonably can, given the situation.

Okay, the face-grab was maybe a misplaced gesture but, while being a proficient future queen, let's keep in mind that when it come to things we all deem basic, such as normal interactions with people, Anastasia is still a total klutz.
And as @EldritchNeko commented before, "We're talking a lot about something that probably isn't going to matter all that much". That's really the tree that hides the forest, indeed.

Look at the rest of this chapter. The way Ansastasia looks at Allen, talks to him (at least in private), and even SMILES AT HIM. That literally speaks volumes ! I mean, have you ever seen her smile at anyone else in the whole story? Including her former fiancé? Well, neither have I.

#DefinitelyNotATsundere. I rest my case. And I will watch her career with great interest.

 

[mgRdr]

Her engagement with the crown prince had been decided when she was only 8 years old. Since then, she has been raised, trained, and even hard-wired to become the future queen. No more, no less. Least we can say is that she not exactly had a normal childhood, if any childhood at all...

That is indeed pitiful (though quite a bit trite for the genre), but Allen had no part in her childhood being the way it is. If she has any grievances about her childhood, she'd better take it with those responsible, not with Allen.

Meanwhile, I don't think she's as entitled as you say. Quite the opposite actually. She perfectly checked her privilege.

How fortunate I've been.

Those moments of introspection don't do it for me. Occasionally thinking that maybe she's had it easy does not mean she is level with those who actually went through struggle. My issue is not with how she thinks - the manga tells us that she's a good girl and she thinks about the struggles of the common folk - but with how she acts. As I am not gonna hold her responsible for thoughtcrime, so I am not gonna applaud her for being well-meaning in her thoughts.

I don't think she's as entitled as you say

She is entitled in both historical and modern meanings of the word. She holds the title of a daughter of a Duke (well maybe that's not a real title, but she is a noble and holds all the priveleges coming with this position), and she's quite content leveraging her title - knowingly or subconsciously - against Allen.

And as @EldritchNeko commented before, "We're talking a lot about something that probably isn't going to matter all that much".

As of this chapter, I look at how Anastasia acts, and it makes me not like her as a person. If something about her changes in the following chapters, I might reevaluate what I think about her, I would even commend the manga if it shows her changing organically, but this snapshot of her would most likely stay in my mind as that of an entitled tsundere.

The way Ansastasia looks at Allen, talks to him (at least in private), and even SMILES AT HIM. That literally speaks volumes !

I don't see that as a fair repayment for the service Allen did. Not to the extent that would justify her treating him like a servant anyway.

#DefinitelyNotATsundere.

Now that you made me reread chapter 19, she had been acting much more reasonably around Allen back then, like properly and even somewhat formally thanking him for his service and giving him space to respond and reject her requests. It is when she got more familiar with him and started having feelings for him, that's when she started acting around him with less restraint. And this switch in attitude reinforces my belief that she is a tsundere.

 

[Al_Kohlick]

That is indeed pitiful (though quite a bit trite for the genre), but Allen had no part in her childhood being the way it is. If she has any grievances about her childhood, she'd better take it with those responsible, not with Allen.

Grievances? What grievances? Trauma and sorrow at worst. And still, she is certainly not holding Allen any grudge for that.
Nah, the only thing she can blame allen for ATM is being the reason why she's being teased so often by her parents and her friends. And basically that's it

I don't see that as a fair repayment for the service Allen did. Not to the extent that would justify her treating him like a servant anyway.

So you think they are in a mercantile relationship? "I did that much for you so you owe me that much"? That's a pretty distressing point of view.
And even if there should be a proper repayment, nobody said it had to be immediate either. Wait and see...
Anyway, a dozen chapters ago, Allen was merely an insect for her. And now, he has practically been adopted by the Ramslett family. The best life insurance he could dream of (that also covers his mom). How can you consider this unfair or unbalanced?

As of this chapter, I look at how Anastasia acts, and it makes me not like her as a person.

I shall repeat, she hasn't really the choice. Nobility can look fancy yet it's a quite toxic environment. Due to her Future Queen status, she is constantly the center of attention: scrutinized, observed and judged. Her public image is of utmost importance. So, no she couldn't afford to act like a "normal" person there, for obvious reasons. At least if she cherishes her own credibility. Not to even mention the solemnity of that ceremony where she basically subdues and humbles her worst enemies...

But should Anastasia and Allen have some quiet moment (away from prying eyes) later in the story, then the atmosphere may become very different. I kindly advise everyone to keep their insulin ready.

 

[mgRdr]

And still, she is certainly not holding Allen any grudge for that.

Then why bring up her trauma and sorrow in the first place, if Allen has nothing to do with them? "She acts the way she does because of her trauma" is the best interpretation of this argument I could come up with.

So you think they are in a mercantile relationship?

I think they are in an one-sided master-servant relationship, where Anastasia does more of "take" and less of "give", while retaining the right to treat Allen the way she does.

"I did that much for you so you owe me that much"?

My point is that she owes him not to treat him like her property at the very least.

And even if there should be a proper repayment, nobody said it had to be immediate either. Wait and see...

The repayment has not even been offered or discussed, and this not-even-a-promise of repayment does not entitle her to act the way she does.

And now, he has practically been adopted by the Ramslett family. The best life insurance he could dream of (that also covers his mom). How can you consider this unfair or unbalanced?

Again, not yet. The best thing the Ramslett family did was grant him their protection, which neither he nor his mother even needed before the incident.

I shall repeat, she hasn't really the choice.

And I shall repeat, there are other ways to behave around Allen while maintaining her credibility and granting Allen dignity he deserves. Face-grabbing Allen undermines both of those.
I mean, chapter 19 - she had been treating Allen in a way that is both respectful to Allen and mindful of her position. Why can't she keep acting that way now?

 

[EldritchNeko]

Grievances? What grievances? Trauma and sorrow at worst. And still, she is certainly not holding Allen any grudge for that.
Nah, the only thing she can blame allen for ATM is being the reason why she's being teased so often by her parents and her friends. And basically that's it

So you think they are in a mercantile relationship? "I did that much for you so you owe me that much"? That's a pretty distressing point of view.
And even if there should be a proper repayment, nobody said it had to be immediate either. Wait and see...
Anyway, a dozen chapters ago, Allen was merely an insect for her. And now, he has practically been adopted by the Ramslett family. The best life insurance he could dream of (that also covers his mom). How can you consider this unfair or unbalanced?

I shall repeat, she hasn't really the choice. Nobility can look fancy yet it's a quite toxic environment. Due to her Future Queen status, she is constantly the center of attention: scrutinized, observed and judged. Her public image is of utmost importance. So, no she couldn't afford to act like a "normal" person there, for obvious reasons. At least if she cherishes her own credibility. Not to even mention the solemnity of that ceremony where she basically subdues and humbles her worst enemies...

But should Anastasia and Allen have some quiet moment (away from prying eyes) later in the story, then the atmosphere may become very different. I kindly advise everyone to keep their insulin ready.

You've made some excellent points! You even managed to get [mgRdr] to slightly concede on one of them! (nominally, at least) However it seems, unfortunately, that [mgRdr] is rather convinced of their own perspective, and is unwilling to view it in any other way - which is of course their right as an individual capable of having a perspective (I've done the same before myself).

From what I can see, their quote points (where they reference what we've said) seem to distinctly lack the parts in which we acknowledge their points or make arguments they don't have a counter for. They seem quite dead set on maintaining their perspective regardless of anyone else's input- although I remark again that you somehow managed to get them to slightly concede a point with chapter 19.

On the other hand, I find the points you bring up absolutely delightful. It's been such a pleasure reading them that I even dropped a follow (first time I've bothered doing that on the Mangadex forums).
Hope to see you around. :3

 

[mgRdr]

[mgRdr]

If you want to discuss he-who-shall-not-be-named and the way they conduct this discussion, feel free to quote them directly, this way, they will see it in their notifications and may be able to respond.

However it seems, unfortunately, that [mgRdr] is rather convinced of their own perspective, and is unwilling to view it in any other way

They seem quite dead set on maintaining their perspective regardless of anyone else's input

Well, so is the other party

From what I can see, their quote points (where they reference what we've said) seem to distinctly lack the parts in which we acknowledge their points

Do you need my acknowledgement of your acknowledgement? You may - or may not - have changed your mind about certain points, what would me bringing that up would achieve?

or make arguments they don't have a counter for

Feel free to bring them up again, I tried answering everything that seemed like a pointed argument. If you think there are points which you think I should address, I'll do my best to answer them.

 

[Ahdharr]

If you want to discuss he-who-shall-not-be-named and the way they conduct this discussion, feel free to quote them directly, this way, they will see it in their notifications and may be able to respond.


Well, so is the other party

Do you need my acknowledgement of your acknowledgement? You may - or may not - have changed your mind about certain points, what would me bringing that up would achieve?

Feel free to bring them up again, I tried answering everything that seemed like a pointed argument. If you think there are points which you think I should address, I'll do my best to answer them.

Just get over with it and say you don't like hime-sama falls in love with commoner MC tropes or whatever your beef is.

At this point you just keep arguing for the sake of arguing my guy.

You're not winning any internet points arguing things that others are directly refuting because you don't like one or two specific moments of Ana's interactions or something.

 

[mgRdr]

and say you don't like hime-sama falls in love with commoner MC tropes or whatever your beef is

I don't like "hime-sama being ungrateful and entitled towards commoner MC" trope, that's what my beef is. If she confesses, then my beef is effectively over, but so long as she's gonna keep acting tsundere towards her saviour, I am gonna be having this beef

At this point you just keep arguing for the sake of arguing my guy.

It takes two (or more) to argue. I stated my opinion, and the argument is people trying to prove me wrong. Or do you imply I should retract my opinion just because someone decided to challenge it?

directly refuting

Again, if I haven't addressed something, feel free to bring that up again

 

[patty412s]

read it on novelhall, from chapter 47-48

Thank you it has most of the chapter just missing the extra and the afterwords but thanks again

 

[Simpleton]

yeah and "zaus" -> south
loving it

After remembering that "this is a game world, and the real focus is only this nation", then it makes prefect sense, agreed.

-

I'm mainly just posting to thank the new TL though.

 

[EldritchNeko]

If you want to discuss he-who-shall-not-be-named and the way they conduct this discussion, feel free to quote them directly, this way, they will see it in their notifications and may be able to respond.


Well, so is the other party

Do you need my acknowledgement of your acknowledgement? You may - or may not - have changed your mind about certain points, what would me bringing that up would achieve?

Feel free to bring them up again, I tried answering everything that seemed like a pointed argument. If you think there are points which you think I should address, I'll do my best to answer them.

I deliberately excluded you, because I did not want to continue interacting with you. I still do not wish to interact with you. I've given up on attempting to sway your interpretation.
Although I'd be glad if my efforts and the efforts of [Al_Kholick] managed made some progress - you at least convinced me that she might be ever so slightly tsundere, though still nowhere near as entitled and classist as you proclaim her to be.

You demonstrating that you acknowledge our points would serve to show that you do acknowledge the points we make, and that you aren't just looking for ways to make counterpoints or defend your own points. When both parties acknowledge each others' points, it shows that they respect each other and that they're genuinely listening to what the other party has to say.
Now, I say all that with the assumption that you genuinely don't know - that you didn't pick it up naturally and that it was never otherwise explained to you. I was fortunate enough to have it explained to me, even if it took a while for me to truly comprehend the information and integrate it into my life (a few years, maybe? Probably at least one).

I usually enjoy a good debate, but in all honestly, this series of interactions with you only served to tire me out as it progressed.

PS: You mentioned that you were a rather proud person in one of your previous posts, which might imply that you're focused on maintaining the idea that your assertations are correct. I'm a rather proud person myself, but I also take pride in being able to suppress my pride and concede a point (paradoxically creating a positive feedback loop of self-esteem). You, of course, don't need to do that yourself. But it might be something to at least consider. In life - not limited to this particular instance or manga or anything, but in general - there might be points on which you are incorrect or where you are correct in your perspective but reject someone else's perspective despite them also being correct, but are too proud to admit the fault. I've had moments like that myself, which I've acknowledged in retrospect.
Or maybe that's not for you. It doesn't really matter. This was just something I wanted to share just in case it was applicable and might help (hence why it's in the PS section).

 

[mgRdr]

I deliberately excluded you, because I did not want to continue interacting with you.

But you couldn't leave it well alone, that's why you had to sneakily post another comment about how [mgRdr] is so stubborn and unwilling to change their perspective for the objectively correct one. So here we are, still interacting.

You demonstrating that you acknowledge our points

When both parties acknowledge each others' points, it shows that ... they're genuinely listening to what the other party has to say.

Is me directly quoting and responding to your points does not constitute their acknowledgement?

it shows that they respect each other

I do not consider trying to explain my perspective with some alleged personal circumstances a sign of respect towards me and my arguments, so I guess respect wasn't there in the first place; and if you think about it, there is something intrinsicly disrespectful about the whole idea of trying to sway somebody's perspective because you disagree with it. But I do honestly appreciate an attempt to discuss it at the very least.
Or the implication that I am sticking to my objectively incorrect perspective only because of my pride, that part really screams respect yo. And so you feel the need to patronizingly impart your hard-lived knowledge of being proven incorrect, because of course it is only my lack of experience of being proven wrong which prevents me from discarding my objectively incorrect perspective.

but I also take pride in being able to suppress my pride and concede a point

But you didn't really, unless you consider "she might be ever so slightly tsundere" a meaningful concession, meanwhile it seems it is expected of me to concede my whole perspective.

 

[Mieglen]

I feel like war is inevitable, but thankfully, it won’t take place IN the Capital city, but outside in the wilderness between borders. Cause if it’s like any of the mob stories I’ve read, his skills will no doubt get him a nobility title

 

[Mieglen]

I can't wait for MC to carpet bomb the Empire

FOR DEMOCRA- oops wrong franchise, played too much of that game lately

 

[EldritchNeko]

But you couldn't leave it well alone, that's why you had to sneakily post another comment about how [mgRdr] is so stubborn and unwilling to change their perspective for the objectively correct one. So here we are, still interacting.


Is me directly quoting and responding to your points does not constitute their acknowledgement?

I do not consider trying to explain my perspective with some alleged personal circumstances a sign of respect towards me and my arguments, so I guess respect wasn't there in the first place; and if you think about it, there is something intrinsicly disrespectful about the whole idea of trying to sway somebody's perspective because you disagree with it. But I do honestly appreciate an attempt to discuss it at the very least.
Or the implication that I am sticking to my objectively incorrect perspective only because of my pride, that part really screams respect yo. And so you feel the need to patronizingly impart your hard-lived knowledge of being proven incorrect, because of course it is only my lack of experience of being proven wrong which prevents me from discarding my objectively incorrect perspective.

But you didn't really, unless you consider "she might be ever so slightly tsundere" a meaningful concession, meanwhile it seems it is expected of me to concede my whole perspective.

We're miscommunicating. Let's just stop.

 

[Schernobyl]

I feel like war is inevitable, but thankfully, it won’t take place IN the Capital city, but outside in the wilderness between borders. Cause if it’s like any of the mob stories I’ve read, his skills will no doubt get him a nobility title

Not just a noble title, the panties of the woman he loves.. I mean her hand in marriage.

 

[Al_Kohlick]

Not just a noble title, the panties of the woman he loves.. I mean her hand in marriage.

All. All of the above !

And in case the Estonian empire makes a come-back in the TL, I may advocate for a Kingdom of Finland to be created out of the blue as well. So as we can crack jokes about Winter war, motti tactics and Simo "The White Death" Häyhä.

It's time to start dreaming big.