Clarification on Content Ratings

[TanomoshiiKinoko]

I have been translating the series Luo Zhi Yongzhe. I had initially set it as Erotica, but it was changed to Pornographic and has been locked for editing. I was hoping to get a better understanding of why. I did some searching and found a more detailed descriptions of the ratings, but Pornographic still doesn't seem to fit. The most graphic aspects are:

1.Visible pubic hair
2.Man almost grabs a girl's boob
3.Monster smells a girl's naked body(including crotch)
4.Girls wets herself in fear

While the Content Ratings are defined as:

Safe - No obscene or vulgar depictions of the human body. e.g. no sex, nudity, provocative clothing, or ecchi scenes. (This is obviously not right)
Suggestive - Has minor to moderate amount of risqué and sensual elements. No explicit sex scenes, but can include minor nudity. (The tooltip on the edit page only says "Nudity but no sex". The specification to "MINOR nudity" would rule this out)
Erotica - Has a high amount of risqué and stimulating elements that contribute to the plot, including explicit nudity for sex scenes. The work is still focused on story, rather than pornography. (This seems to fit. The series has lots of nudity, but is also plot focused)
Pornographic - Having sexual intercourse as the main focus of the story with the purpose of sexually arousing the readers, typically published in porn magazines or stated as R-18 content. (The series contains no sex or visible genitals, unless pubic hair counts. It is marked R-18 on pixiv, but I think that's true for anything with nipples.)

I'm also not sure Sexual Violence is warranted. You could see someone grab a boob or an animal smell someone's crotch in almost any ecchi manga. The guy didn't even succeed at touching her boob in this.

I'd appreciate any help in understanding the ratings better and what aspect is believed to have pushed this series over the line into pornographic.

Thank you for your time

 

[Piime]

The definitions of the content ratings should be made clearer in my opinion or there should be a level between 'Erotica' and 'suggestive'. 'Erotica' is for "heavily censored or non-explicit sex" while 'suggestive' is "light exposure". This could range from total nudity, uncensored nipples, softcore pornography to a character wearing suggestive clothing and exposure of underwear but leaves out non-sexual romantic acts like kissing or massages (for example). Somebody added the suggestive tag to one of the manga I translate despite the most explicit content being the main character taking a bath and this is not at all comparable to something like Mushoku Tensei which has the same suggestive tag and features masturbation in the second chapter.

 

[TanomoshiiKinoko]

Without weighing in on what the rating should be on this particular series,


It is not meant to imply that at all. If it helps, just think of "Safe/Suggestive/Erotica/Pornography" instead as arbitrary simple one-word labels for "Explicitness Level 1/2/3/4" since that's the actual intent. The labels themselves are unimportant, they're just the best ones we could come up with that roughly correspond with what we wanted set the levels at.

Would it be possible for you(Or another staff member) to weigh in on this series? Because I've been locked from editing I assume a staff member made this change. And it really doesn't make any sense to me. I was hoping to get specific clarification on why this series is seen as pornographic and containing sexual violence. Without rape, sex, or genitals I'm having difficulty understanding how this falls under mangadex's definition of either.

Until a staff member explains their decision I don't feel like this can be resolved.

 

[BestBoy]

sexual violence

I'd be surprised if that's removed. Being held against her will so someone can "test out the merchandise" while reaching to grope her chest really screams sexual violence, imo.

 

[TanomoshiiKinoko]

I'd be surprised if that's removed. Being held against her will so someone can "test out the merchandise" while reaching to grope her chest really screams sexual violence, imo.

I think it'd be a bad idea to use the sexual violence label on every ecchi comedy where a character has their boob groped or almost groped.

 

[BestBoy]

I think it'd be a bad idea to use the sexual violence label on every ecchi comedy where a character has their boob groped or almost groped.

Why are you leaving out the part where the murdering bandits are holding her against her will and referring to her as merchandise?
This is not comparable to Yamada-kun slipping on a banana peel and accidentally grabbing a boob.

 

[TanomoshiiKinoko]

Why are you leaving out the part where the murdering bandits are holding her against her will and referring to her as merchandise?
This is not comparable to Yamada-kun slipping on a banana peel and accidentally grabbing a boob.

I'm not comparing it to accidental pervert scenes. It's not uncommon for a character to purposely touch others sexually. Whether it's a guy grabbing a girl's boobs, a girl pressing her breasts against a guy. Just look at chapter 1 of The Seven Deadly Sins, which isn't even rated suggestive. This would get even worse if you count any time a girl touches another girl. You can even see girls touching another girl's crotch in chapter 3 of Kanojo no Kagi wo Akeru Houhou and chapter 18 of Rent-A-Girlfriend.

They also didn't touch her boob in this. Should every manga that has a scene where a thug grabs a girl's wrist and try's to drag her someplace private to assault her, before the hero jumps in and saves her, get the tag? Like in chapter 1 of Momoiro Meloik?

 

[cash5891]

Why are you leaving out the part where the murdering bandits are holding her against her will and referring to her as merchandise?
This is not comparable to Yamada-kun slipping on a banana peel and accidentally grabbing a boob.

... Just look at chapter 1 of The Seven Deadly Sins, which isn't even rated suggestive. ...

IMO you are both correct. Technically the bandits restraining her and attempting to grope her should be an example of a textbook definition of "sexual violence". However, it is also a fact that these labels are not being consistently applied across the scans landscape. The Seven Deadly Sins is an excellent example to demonstrate this, as Meliodas' grope-y behavior is probably bad enough to legally qualify as sexual assault (IANAL, don't quote me), but you see ZERO tags reflecting this on the manga's title page.

In more practical terms, that means that to be consistent we can either re-classify all those other works to be consistent, or just reclassify this one. The simpler method is obvious, and so I think OP's request is reasonable. Whether the staff agree or not, however, is another thing entirely.

 

[BestBoy]

Let's keep in mind that tone and context are important.

chapter 1 of The Seven Deadly Sins

I think this is questionable and the series should have at least suggestive. The fact it's played for comedy (by melodius quickly shifting to "your heartbeat is fine") might help downplay the skeezy behavior. If it weren't played for laughs, she didn't deeply blush, and instead she was taken aback/grossed out, then SV would definitely apply.

chapter 3 of Kanojo no Kagi wo Akeru Houhou

This title is marked Erotica and this all seems relatively consensual (essentially a drunk orgy). SV doesn't apply.

chapter 18 of Rent-A-Girlfriend

You're not seriously suggesting the grandma washing the woman in a completely nonsexual manner is comparable, right?

chapter 1 of Momoiro Meloik

They're kidnapping the 16 year old with the intention to rape her. This series should have the SV tag.

In more practical terms, that means that to be consistent we can either re-classify all those other works to be consistent, or just reclassify this one. The simpler method is obvious, and so I think OP's request is reasonable. Whether the staff agree or not, however, is another thing entirely.

That's not how this tag should work. Its purpose is to warn users of certain content. Removing it from a series that it applies to because it's missing from other series that it also applies to is counterintuitive.

The tag system isn't foolproof and if a series is missing a tag then it should be reported as such.

Edit: With the above sentence in mind, it is ultimately up to the mods once a series has been reported as missing tags.

 

[cash5891]

Let's keep in mind that tone and context are important.

I think this is questionable and the series should have at least suggestive. The fact it's played for comedy (by melodius quickly shifting to "your heartbeat is fine") might help downplay the skeezy behavior. If it weren't played for laughs, she didn't deeply blush, and instead she was taken aback/grossed out, then SV would definitely apply.

No. This is IMO still sexual assault, blushing or not. Just because it's "played for comedy" doesn't give it a pass, just as "it was just a joke" will not fly as a defense when a perv gets dragged to court for copping a feel. "Cultural difference" shouldn't get a pass either.

This title is marked Erotica and this all seems relatively consensual (essentially a drunk orgy). SV doesn't apply.

Nope. Being drunk can imply lack of ability to consent. Thus can technically still be SA. SV tag (for lack of a better-fitting one) probably should still apply. Also, for the OP manhua, the actual assault was attempted but hasn't actually happened yet; here it is strongly implied that it indeed took place.

You're not seriously suggesting the grandma washing the woman in a completely nonsexual manner is comparable, right?

LOL she's not "just" washing, she's also groping her potential granddaughter-in-law while talking about how "these ample bosoms" and "sturdy hips" will be ideal for rearing (grand)children. Still unwanted sexual touching. Best you can argue is that it wasn't violent.

That's not how this tag should work. Its purpose is to warn users of certain content. Removing it from a series that it applies to because it's missing from other series that it also applies to is counterintuitive.

The tag system isn't foolproof and if a series is missing a tag then it should be reported as such.

OK, I'll give you this one. But when the discrepancy gets this bad, whether the staff are willing to edit all those other titles or not is, as we both noted, up to them.

 

[Teasday]

Would it be possible for you(Or another staff member) to weigh in on this series? Because I've been locked from editing I assume a staff member made this change. And it really doesn't make any sense to me. I was hoping to get specific clarification on why this series is seen as pornographic and containing sexual violence. Without rape, sex, or genitals I'm having difficulty understanding how this falls under mangadex's definition of either.

Until a staff member explains their decision I don't feel like this can be resolved.

Sexual violence seems entirely justified, and in my personal opinion which is not in any way to be construed as a judgment on this issue because I'm a developer and not a content moderator, this seems to lean more towards Erotica so far.

The fact that you're arguing about the definition of the SV tag with BestBoy who seems to be almost entirely correct on how it should be used isn't filling me with confidence in your tagging abilities, though.

(Momoiro Meloik is the one I'm not sure I agree with, since the actual sexual part of the violence wasn't depicted, just implied it would happen later.)

 

[BestBoy]

This is IMO still sexual assault

That's the one I was most unsure of, tbh.

Being drunk can imply lack of ability to consent. Thus can technically still be SA

That's well and good for the real world, but I think qualifying a drunk orgy as SA in an comedy erotica is ignoring the tone and context of the manga in favor of making a point.

washing

Washing "family members" is also cultural for Japan. Mizuhara actually consents to being washed on the very same page, doesn't object to being washed, continues to sit there and converse with the grandmother, and even confides in her about an insecurity. Additionally, the author has the ability to write the character taking offense or asking the old woman to stop, but does not. If this scene were meant to be portrayed as objectionable (like being held against your will or kidnapped for sex slavery) it would have been obvious, especially given how often Mizuhara voices her opinions on things in that manga.

I wouldn't be surprised of there are scenes of implied SA or SV in that manga, though. It was pretty messy from what I recall.

the discrepancy

I think the "discrepancy" is a combination of people attempting to view the tag in a black and white manner, when really it's incredibly subjective, and many titles missing the tag when they should have it.

Edit: Though, this is all beside the point. OP's manhua definitely deserves the SV tag.

 

[BestBoy]

Momoiro Meloik is the one I'm not sure I agree with

In my opinion, the depiction of kidnapping in order to rape someone would be disturbing enough for someone who has suffered that before, which should warrant the content warning tag.

 

[Manko-sensei]

So far three different standards are used for sexual violence tag:

• When something IRL is considered a sexual assault (in which case a huge amount of works should have it).
• When in the series there's actual rape (there's no need for penetration).
• When it looks like a hentai title because of ugly bastards, tentacles or similar but it's either a threat or a scene with tension that ends with nothing of the sort.

Which should we go with?

 

[Teasday]

In my opinion, the depiction of kidnapping in order to rape someone would be disturbing enough for someone who has suffered that before, which should warrant the content warning tag.

I understand the rationale, I just don't think we've used the tag like that from what I remember.

 

[cash5891]

That's well and good for the real world, but I think qualifying a drunk orgy as SA in an comedy erotica is ignoring the tone and context of the manga in favor of making a point.

Now you're going against your own words: if tags are supposed to be a warning, it's extremely easy for me to see that if I were a SA victim (in the real world), I probably would not want to read a work where something similar to what I went through is (seemingly or not) made light of or made into a kind of comedy. Some people might find the (dark) humor in it, sure, but that's still not an argument against having some tag being there as a "well, you have been warned" message so those who want to avoid it can. Personally I don't see much merit in distinguishing between "real world" and "anime/manga" depictions of traumatic experiences when it comes to avoiding them -- I imagine "tone and context" (and culture!) would likely matter much less to someone wishing to avoid viewing these kinds of scenarios at all, which is what you (rightly) argued should be the main purpose of these tags.

Now arguably the situation depicted in this manga deserves a different tag than SV -- I've seen nonconsensual/NC used elsewhere, and that might be the best fit here, but I don't think MD has such a tag yet. It's up to the staff to add such a tag.

Washing "family members" is also cultural for Japan. Mizuhara actually consents to being washed on the very same page, doesn't object to being washed, continues to sit there and converse with the grandmother, and even confides in her about an insecurity. Additionally, the author has the ability to write the character taking offense or asking the old woman to stop, but does not.

See above about "culture". One issue with giving a pass on culture is that it's really not that hard to find cultural practices that are widely considered harmful and abhorrent to anyone living in the modern, connected world (ex. child brides). The author not writing the FMC to taking offense might be because it's their culture, but tags/ratings shouldn't be based on that, especially since we've established that the main purpose of tags is so that people who do not wish to see certain things can avoid works containing those things.

An extreme example: some work where a "chad" MC gets isekai-ed to a world where SA is "normal" and "necessary" to "establish dominance" shouldn't get a free pass on the SV tag, even though MC's actions would be considered normal and necessary in that work's setting.

So I would argue that these works deserve some kind of tag, if not SV. (I can hear the "tag bloat" objections already, but that's another argument entirely.)

 

[TanomoshiiKinoko]

The fact that you're arguing about the definition of the SV tag with BestBoy who seems to be almost entirely correct on how it should be used isn't filling me with confidence in your tagging abilities, though.

That seems like an unfair thing to say. I'm not arguing. I stated my opinion that boob gropes in an ecchi comedy manga shouldn't count as SV. Then provided examples of similar situations in other more popular manga that did not have the tag. I'm trying to understand what the official stance on this tag is.

While mangadex's definition does include "unwanted sexual acts" my interpretation was that the intent of the tag is to provide a warning for rape and rape adjacent scenes and not comedic sexual harassment. "Sexual act" is very vague and my view was that it meant an actual act towards sex, like something involving the genitals or masturbating on someone or something. If it includes simply touching someone's body without an attempt to got further, then I would think an excessive amount of ecchi manga would receive the tag.

 

[Teasday]

While mangadex's definition does include "unwanted sexual acts" my interpretation was that the intent of the tag is to provide a warning for rape and rape adjacent scenes and not comedic sexual harassment.

Yes, which is why it's strange that you'd start comparing things like, as you yourself said, "3.Monster smells a girl's naked body(including crotch) 4.Girls wets herself in fear" to comedic tropes where the girls in question are not in fact fearing for their lives, about to be raped, or anything else of the sort. It seems like your point is that these should in fact be comparable and that either all of them or none of them should have the SV tag.

"Sexual act" is very vague and my view was that it meant an actual act towards sex, like something involving the genitals or masturbating on someone or something. If it includes simply touching someone's body without an attempt to got further, then I would think an excessive amount of ecchi manga would receive the tag.

As far as I understand, "sexual violence" involves 1. violence that is 2. sexual in nature.

 

[Grogzilla]

As far as I understand, "sexual violence" involves 1. violence that is 2. sexual in nature.

Do I have to break out the flow chart again?

Ask yourself the following questions:

Does this work depict sexual violence?

Spoiler

Yes, yes it does.

Is there a tag that denotes when sexual violence takes place?

Spoiler

Also yes.

Should the work that depicts sexual violence receive the sexual violence tag?

Spoiler: Plot Twist

If you said anything other than "yes," you are wrong

Neither the author's background nor any other chapter bears any relevance to the tag and how it is administered.

 

[cash5891]

As far as I understand, "sexual violence" involves 1. violence that is 2. sexual in nature.

This is why a number of people have requested clarification on the topic and tag -- it's not as cut and dried as it might seem at first.

Violence is "behavior or treatment in which physical force is exerted for the purpose of causing damage or injury," so violent acts done in the process of sexual assault, i.e. slapping the victim to discourage resisting, definitely qualify. But in the manhua in question, the physical force exerted on the MC only served to restrain and not cause damage or injury -- which makes sense in the context that the bandits were intending to sell her off as "goods". Moreover, the restraining itself isn't a sexual act; it arguably may have been meant to facilitate the sexual act of groping, but that never actually happened. So going by that very naive definition of sexual violence, the scene doesn't really deserve the tag.

But removing the tag also feels like it could be a disservice to people wishing to avoid seeing those kinds of situations, so if the definition of SV is expanded to include "coercive actions made to facilitate sexual contact", then the tag would fit -- which is why a clarification would be most helpful here.

 

[BestBoy]

Now you're going against your own words

I can understand how you might see it that way and I totally understand erring on the side of safety and applying the tag liberally. I think it reinforces what I said about applying the tag not being a simple black and white matter, though.

I'm all for more tags, tbh, but from what I understand it is not a priority for the dev team. It may not even be something they want to do.

about "culture".

All fair arguments. Given a night's rest to think about it, the sexual violence tag isn't an indictment of the manga. I think others may see it that way and I was getting swayed by that. It's probably perfectly fine to apply it to a romcom where a scene can be interpreted as objectionable.

Edit: There's wiggle room for the tag, which is fine with me, but others seem to want clear cut definitions for when it's applicable, which I don't agree with.

What I don't understand is why someone would ever want the tag removed after it's already been applied.