Clarification on rules and moderation

[Walhallas]

I'm for neutral(impartial). Moderation to a minimum and some rules as guidelines; Stay out of the groups s*it
[Guidelines only for your moderators and not the community to see (also helps drama... (when published backlash ^^))]
(edit: sry here a Yes maybe a little bit better defined but don't make to much rules.... and moderating is 2nd for me wich i did vote. hf)

"Any user abusing any loopholes (intended or not) will get punished according to severity. The appeal is not accepted." (+maybe group) THIS is a nice comment I did read, to ad as rule

Same with If someone is trying to rig/troll somebody on the edge of the community guidlines to get the other person to troll or get agressive over the communityguidlines; add both a warning or a ban or whatever you would like to enfore here same for both ?!?

Then same comment with Credit pages where the groupo can put their credit and the manga a little bit separate maybe a possible solution. don't know possible.

Also nice did see about the if a group pulls their chapter that maybe info like you: " You are jumping to chapter .... are you sure to proceed??" and there if a group pulled just write "translated by group ... until chapter .... on our site more info or their side see here smth. like that may help.

To the creditpages drama did not see it (always jump over them... find it bad when they use a manga page as a creditpage and it is not marked as a CREDIT page wanna read a manga not your credit page (did read some when they were on a clean whitebackground because that was mostly a thing about the person scanlating the manga.")

Don't know about the group banners but think some moderation..


TO all shoud be your main consistent " STAY ciliv and in best behaviour or smth like that" wich you have for forum for all things (PUT AS a RULE NUMBER 0 AS the TOPN rule of all

You are a good site moderations as little or as much as you think is ok. stay out of the group s*it and be a good side for those scanlation groups.

And for this stealing or doing the work before another group (without taking the translation from the other group (translator switches group etc.)) JUST ignore that *piep* and stay out of it like your site and wanna read until the day i die here 😃.

add some rules delete some rules change some rules.
stay mostly clean of the f**ing snowflake *piep* YOU can NOT make all people happy MEANS let them CRY that's what they always do stay over your group rules and if smth. get's to much out of hand, delete it and RULE with the irond hand bring them to the chaffots let the banhammer fall xD hf.
Just put an end to it and
stay as a good site for the scanlation groups AND readers.

(you can not make all happy atm you are doing smth right if you are #1 so KEEP doing what you always do and change here an there that it stays the same. and let the rest cry.)

Sincerely

Walhallas

Ps: ALL Spelling mistakes(errors), all grammatic mistakes(errors) and all punctuation mistakes(errors) you can have if you find them don't need an input for it, or a correction if it is readable with my mental leaps then it is good. ENGLISH is not my main language. Sry for all the bad words 🤣😛😋

 

[Sola]

My vote is: Keep the current rules.

Modify them only if there is truly a serious issue that needs to be clarified or resolved.

Let the moderators have some discretion. If the moderators are well-recruited, they should all be decent people with a good head on their shoulders, and they should be able to recognize when someone is trying to bend the rules or exploit a loophole. So let the mods handle it on a case-by-case basis, as needed.

Police officers don't give out a ticket for every offense; Sometimes they just issue a warning. Other times, they need to crack down and make an example. Give the mods discretion in the same way that police also have discretion.

Formulating too many rules in an attempt to close loopholes just causes too much bloat and bureaucracy, and no one is going to want to read a wall-of-text ruleset.

 

[Kanami-chan]

I say ban all scanlators and see how readers will react when there's nothing to read and get offended to lol

 

[xenos]

The rules need to prevent loopholes, especially if it's malicious. Perhaps situational rules/ warnings might be needed, since in general the rules seem fine. Just because a law defines something as one thing, if someone abuses the law and not use it for it's intent, it's wrong.

I'm not familiar with all the drama and the provocations happening here, but discussions here should be about the manga itself, not using credit pages/releases to start beef with others. Stuff like sniping is getting out of hand. There are groups sniping a series that is being actively released for petty/silly reasons. Stuff like posting chapters on releases that have 2 week delays can be argued both ways, but on series that have releases 1-3 days after the raws come out, why let those series be sniped? Especially when 99% of the snipes are of worse quality and can end with situation worsening, aka no releases. This stuff should be prevented with moderation here imo.

Essentially, I'm all for beef and drama, just keep it out of the platform and the content.

 

[Tenshinchigi]

8% = Troll
25% = Butt Hurt
67% = Innocent Bystander

Generally I'd say that the rules are fine as is, though maybe streamline them a bit?

 

[Mabbo]

Before you ask me, let me ask you first. There's drama in MD?

I mean, I don't know about other people, but I sure don't care about dramas. I read if there's an update, that's that.

 

[crazybars]

@Mabbo

Something about a group posting a credit page making fun of the New Zealand shootings, then made fun of Hatigarm.


When Hatigarm responded, Mangadex censored them in the comments section. Meraki scans pulled all their chapters in response, forcing Mangadex to pull the offensive credit page.

 

[icantnotthink]

@Mabbo @Crazybars
Those are two unrelated incidents. The only credit page to get censored was a page by rapeman (probably the reason for the potential tightening of loopholes because of him being known for being pretty racist and making a lot of edgy jokes) where he made some jokes about the New Zealand shooting and I believe edited in a screenshot from the footage, I believe the day of or after it happened. It was uncool to just shove in after a manga and a lot of people didn't like it, so the mods took it down.

In regards to the Hatigarm and Meraki stuff: Hatigarm picked up translating Anjou after _anq stopped translating the series. Hatigarm is known for having a credits page asking for pateron patrons or donations, I believe. Face(palm/punch), a scanlating ?group? who really dislike the idea of asking for donations for scanlating, 'sniped' Anjou from Hati and posted a couple of chapters and poster a couple of credits pages talking about how scanlators shouldn't ask for money. (Obvuously calling out Hati.) Hati got pissed and asked MD to take down the pages or the chapters, or something and I think responded in their own credits page. MD didn't. Hati took down a chunk of their chapters in response. Meraki, who I'm assuming are friends with Hati, took down some of their stuff as well as a show of solidarity and agreement.

I might be getting some details off, but that's the gist.

 

[derpdederp]

I still personally disagree with the one instance where you did censor so I voted accordingly.

 

[TMoane]

I was not following the drama when it happened but from Meraki's MD page (https://mangadex.org/group/13/meraki-scans) it sounds like they were angry that they couldn't discuss credit pages' comments in the chapter discussions. Which seems reasonable to me, the credit pages are uploaded as part of the chapter. Sounds like the rule got changed after they pulled.

On moderation, my opinion is that there should be moderate moderation and a report button to enable to implementation of an optional filter for comments/pages marked as offensive. Other websites do this and I think it works great. The focus should be on the manga and stuff that is offensive is not usually relevant and takes away from actual discussion and enjoyment of the manga.

 

[crazybars]

@icantnotthink

Wait. . . . . THIS is what triggered Hatigarm to pull chapters and Meraki to pull chapters? Hatigarm told Mangadex to pull Facepalm's scanslated chapters over THIS?????!!!!

https://mangadex.org/chapter/631157/13


This????!!!! Is the cause of the massive inconveniences and chapter pulling and throwing shade and shoving their own agenda at Mangadex while Meraki itself complaing about Political Agenda?
==========================

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh man, the tears can't stop coming. No wonder Mangadex isn't posting why Meraki and Hatigarm pulled chapters. That's the most embarrassing bullshit I've ever heard.

Wow, getting offended by elementary school level shet, way to go Meraki and Hatigarm.

 

[Poitato]

That this is an issue makes me sad. I haven't seen anything that could be drama, so quite vocal minority Indeed

 

[gomichandesu]

@pantsman @holo
true, though I feel like their work isn't getting any less recognition provided people still like their scans better and prefer to read their's. Like I know I've gone through series that have had much better translators than others (IE, one of my pet peeves is translators who opt to have 4 pages worth of translation notes that aren't really necessary, in the style of "Just according to Keikaku *Keikaku means plan". Nothing throws off my read more than every single speech bubble having an * next to it lol.) I personally am all for the idea of having multiple translations because some translator's styles are kinda annoying to me personally, but others might like them better.
But yeah, as I thought the only real motivation to be overly upset about sniping is money. Which, I kinda have to agree I'm chill with the concept that scanslators need cash for raws and such, but it's not really your property to profit off of and it should really only be a hobby. Take what you need to maintain said hobby, I'll support that, but don't quit your day job. (Same goes to Manga Dex really, I'm happy to support yall financially in what it takes to maintain the site, but I would be less willing to support an actual profit off of works that aren't really yours lol.)

 

[Eesolett]

@teasday
I didn't know you could do that. I guess that's better than outright deleting shit and banning people.

 

[Acolytus]

@crazybars The credit page that caused this whole mess was this one which has a more aggressive wording, even though I still think it's not that bad despite completely disagreeing with the belief being shared.

Like I said in another place, I believe that the main idea that must drive MD is freedom for the translators. Some rules must be in place to prevent this place from turning into 4chan since the site it's targeted at a way wider audience, of course, but they must only be there to implement some basic order and nothing more. Translators should have as much freedom as possible but at the same time they must understand that freedom comes with a price, meaning that others might use for things you don't agree with, be it criticizing donations in a credit page or "sniping" a series. Of course, readers must be aware of that too; I hate delayed releases or groups removing a shitton of chapters over some drama but I understand that that's part of the freedom I'm talking about and that it's a nasty side of it I must put up with.

So no, I don't think rules must be changed but the spirit of those rules should be clear and those who go against that should be punished. In that aspect, I think the staff should make its stance clear in certain thing like controversial credit pages, so that there is a precedent set that both translators and the staff itself can rely on in the future.

With that said, I think it would be much better if next time someone has a particularo opinion they wish to share, they do in the forums. Like I said, you are free to do that stuff in your credit pages as long as the staffs doesn't decide to forbid it, but looking at all the trouble that caused, I think it would be better if you chose not to exercise that particular freedom.

 

[Keetonman]

I was kinda miffed at getting a warning about me saying how I think pedophiles should be ...uh...handled. I mean, I think the rules are fine as they are otherwise.

 

[ElTipejoLoco]

I'm really confused as to why it's considered morally superior to use other people's work as a medium through which you can convey an unpleasant message to another individual or group as opposed to maybe getting money for time spent on a hobby (translation) if people decide to go offsite and maybe see a donation button that's kind of out of the way to get to. Or why the latter constitutes begging and the former is "grade school tier bullying that only sensitive snowflakes would respond to."

I'm curious as to whether or not anyone's ever told an original author something along the lines of: "Hey, I've read your work translated by hobbyists, but did you know they sandwich it in inside-jokes and interpersonal call-outs and complaints" or "Did you know some people translating your series have ill relatives or that they like to discuss your characters' looks and relationships in the margins," etcetera. It'd be interesting to hear if any authors or publishers do get those kinds of messages, though, and what their responses are beyond sending out take-down orders, as it might make it clearer where the official stance would be. Maybe pixiv authors would love to hear that something they posted as a low effort post became a controversial mess overseas? Who knows.

That pondering aside, the latest incident's instigator group's site hosts a longer call out as a blog post that essentially makes it clear that the real reason they believe scanlation groups should not receive donations is because it can be, and therefore should be, done at no cost. They backpedaled in the same post and confess that "actually it cost us only 13 USD to buy the volumes we translated" (and at least one member eventually posted pictures of the last volume's pages torn for scanning, and an intact previous volume that I doubt they'll take apart because there's nothing left to prove on that front) because, well... would anyone admit to using illegally and freely distributed raw scans when trying to pretend one's morally superior? Of course, any hobbyist translator actually spends time on their work, which can be measured as opportunity cost- time they could've spent working to earn money- but teaching people about that is inconvenient for their narrative.

I don't think anyone will ever prove they actually purchased the volumes or chapters they work on since they'd have to sacrifice some part or a whole of their anonymity to post proofs of purchase regardless of the medium they used to acquire the actual material. Even after they went through the trouble of publishing receipts they could simply try to take advantage of certain shops' or sellers' return policies by claiming the products arrived with defects or the like to avoid actually spending money. So long as this is true, they're "schröedinger's supporters of the original work:" You simply have to take their word for it because doing otherwise would be akin to doxxing. Telling others to support the owners' of the copyrighted material is considered enough, regardless of effectiveness.

Let's give the instigators the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're definitely spending their own money, and not something they've been setting aside given to them by others: Like relatives, or a government program like welfare. Technically this means that they're exaggerating when they claim their work cost them nothing, but the only cost readers are paying them with is the time spent... well, reading. (And definitely not time spent defending them or harassing others on their behalf, incited by any messages adjacent or attached to their work.) Please don't clarify any of the unknowns I hypothesized about: It's no one's business whether or not the instigator group's members used their own thirteen dollars to purchase manga, or if it was their relatives' or friends' or even tax payers' money. It's not actually important, and the divulging of that information will not actually benefit anyone. At least, it shouldn't.

Anyway, is it me or did some other scanlator groups increase the delays for their chapters to go public due to this incident, also? Feels like the solidarity is spreading. Weird, it's almost like a lot of scanlators agree that some part of this situation is not so morally ambiguous.

Ah well, I'm sure it's nothing.

 

[Mabbo]

Hm, I think a chunk of us is forgetting something rather important. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Us readers want to read the manga we love, and we can't do that without the scanlators who kindly provide them to us. Well, technically, we can, and should, by buying the manga to support the author and all that stuff, but not every manga is available/obtainable and not all of us have the ability. Without the scanlators, the only way to get your fill of manga would either buy the book or read the raw. I gotta tell you, scanlating isn't that all fun and game.

Putting into an analogy. Say the scanlators are bakers and we need the bread they hand out for free. Some humbly asked for help, since it's not costless to bake the bread, while some others have their backings from various sources. Some bakers have their own policy; we have to get in line to receive, for example. Each and every baker is different, but we know how generous they are. Because, after all, without the baker, we have no bread.

If you think you can bake, then go on, bake your own bread and don't be an ass for other bakers. That easy. "The bread from that baker is a little burnt, I gotta make a better version of his bread!" No, what you got to do is give your opinion and share your wisdom. Don't forget why did you become a baker in the first place; to feed bread to those poor fellas who can't bake their own bread, I hope. Not waging a turf war over the bread-nesses, I hope. If you think you can improve the quality of that bread, then tell the baker what you have in mind. We're not child, are we?

MD is a good community. Some drama is fine, that's life, but let's not forget our initial motivation. To share what we have with others who don't. USSR anthem plays in the background

 

[Keetonman]

My initial motivation was to convince people to join my cannibalism cult. (joke, I hate to have to point that out but apparently in "Current Year" jokes are serious business)

Anyway, I call that out a lot. We get this shit for free, it aint 100% legal, people work their butts off to provide it for us at pretty much no gain for themselves. If the quality sucks, too bad, they owe us nothing. If you have disposable income, maybe toss a dollar or two their way as thanks.

 

[AkiraZXE]

The world doesn't need an army of mommy-janitors to babysit a bunch of adult children who think a moment's discomfort will kill them. If it doesn't break the core function of the site, and doesn't get you deported or jailed, then it's fine. I don't need MD to pander exclusively to my tastes in manga and comments. Filters and ignore lists exist for everyone to get what they want without taking it from anyone else.