Combating Misinformation: Official Statement
- Thread starter Zephyrus
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2018
- Messages
- 177
@memoryiris
Because it doesn't seem MangaDex has changed their policy.
In fact, the response I got from Zephyrus is:
Which is what you should not do. You should release an official statement saying this group has decided to pull out, and to keep discussions civil. But do not direct people with complaints to them.
There's only 1 thing that will happen when you happen to be an aggregate as big as, or bigger, than |insert the aggregate we all know I'm talking about here|.
That person gets absolutely bombarded.
They were already going to be by readers. It'll only get worse when you look at someone angry and are like "Direct it all here, we aren't dealing with it".
Because it doesn't seem MangaDex has changed their policy.
In fact, the response I got from Zephyrus is:
Which is what you should not do. You should release an official statement saying this group has decided to pull out, and to keep discussions civil. But do not direct people with complaints to them.
There's only 1 thing that will happen when you happen to be an aggregate as big as, or bigger, than |insert the aggregate we all know I'm talking about here|.
That person gets absolutely bombarded.
They were already going to be by readers. It'll only get worse when you look at someone angry and are like "Direct it all here, we aren't dealing with it".
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2018
- Messages
- 80
@TheOneWhoSighs
I don't typically involve myself in any sorts of drama or posts about said drama--I've abstained from saying anything about all of this, despite having quite a few opinions, up to this point--but something you said caught my attention and I just wanted to offer my two cents on what seems to be a sticking point.
I think the context of that situation actually speaks for itself. If an admin allegedly addresses complaints that a certain group's chapters are not available on their site by telling said complainants to take the issue up with the scanlator group, is that wrong? They can't strong-arm or force a group to upload to their site. So if users are bothered by that group's works not being available on the site in question, the only reasonable option is to take it up with the group themselves. That's like asking the custodian of a chain restaurant to fix your order for you--the chef is the one equipped to handle that problem, not the custodian, so why are you complaining to the custodian?
The issue seems to be with the potentially inflammatory use of the word "irrational", to which I say...really? There's offense to be had in calling someone irrational? Irrationality, depending on context, is subjective. But it can also be (again, depending on context) objective. It is literally a word designed to describe someone or something who exists in a state counter to what is consider rational--logical--thought. It's not on the same level as a slur or an insult. And based on what I've read, it did seem to be a decision lacking in rational logic: MangaDex has grown tremendously in a short time, and offers tools and resources that can allow a scanlation group's works to reach wider audiences. Is it a flawless system? No. But does it work? Based on the number of active users, I'd say it does. So, rationally speaking, why wouldn't you take advantage of tools being given to you free of charge? Do the negatives really outweigh the positives? That's not for me to decide, but if we're talking simple, logistical deductions, as a content provider, I would want my work to reach as large an audience in as short an amount of time as possible, in an environment I can ostensibly control. And MangaDex does provide scanlation groups with means to control their content--that's the entire point of being able to put delays on, or remove, chapters at will.
In that light, I don't see the use of the word "irrational" as being an inherently bad thing. But even if you want to argue that it was unnecessary, fair enough; it still makes sense to direct discontent towards an entity who has the actual power to alter the situation at hand. That's just my two cents, though; if my logic seems flawed, or anyone just fundamentally disagrees with me, that's their right. I don't even know why I chose this particular hill to die on, but I've said my piece, and I don't intend to raise any further ire or provoke conflict over something that, ultimately, doesn't involve me. Thank you for your time, consideration, and patience.
I don't typically involve myself in any sorts of drama or posts about said drama--I've abstained from saying anything about all of this, despite having quite a few opinions, up to this point--but something you said caught my attention and I just wanted to offer my two cents on what seems to be a sticking point.
I think the context of that situation actually speaks for itself. If an admin allegedly addresses complaints that a certain group's chapters are not available on their site by telling said complainants to take the issue up with the scanlator group, is that wrong? They can't strong-arm or force a group to upload to their site. So if users are bothered by that group's works not being available on the site in question, the only reasonable option is to take it up with the group themselves. That's like asking the custodian of a chain restaurant to fix your order for you--the chef is the one equipped to handle that problem, not the custodian, so why are you complaining to the custodian?
The issue seems to be with the potentially inflammatory use of the word "irrational", to which I say...really? There's offense to be had in calling someone irrational? Irrationality, depending on context, is subjective. But it can also be (again, depending on context) objective. It is literally a word designed to describe someone or something who exists in a state counter to what is consider rational--logical--thought. It's not on the same level as a slur or an insult. And based on what I've read, it did seem to be a decision lacking in rational logic: MangaDex has grown tremendously in a short time, and offers tools and resources that can allow a scanlation group's works to reach wider audiences. Is it a flawless system? No. But does it work? Based on the number of active users, I'd say it does. So, rationally speaking, why wouldn't you take advantage of tools being given to you free of charge? Do the negatives really outweigh the positives? That's not for me to decide, but if we're talking simple, logistical deductions, as a content provider, I would want my work to reach as large an audience in as short an amount of time as possible, in an environment I can ostensibly control. And MangaDex does provide scanlation groups with means to control their content--that's the entire point of being able to put delays on, or remove, chapters at will.
In that light, I don't see the use of the word "irrational" as being an inherently bad thing. But even if you want to argue that it was unnecessary, fair enough; it still makes sense to direct discontent towards an entity who has the actual power to alter the situation at hand. That's just my two cents, though; if my logic seems flawed, or anyone just fundamentally disagrees with me, that's their right. I don't even know why I chose this particular hill to die on, but I've said my piece, and I don't intend to raise any further ire or provoke conflict over something that, ultimately, doesn't involve me. Thank you for your time, consideration, and patience.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2018
- Messages
- 177
@Sleeper
That IS strong arming.
You have over a million people here.
You can't go "Take all your complaints to them", you go "We respect their decision not to upload on our platform, please do not go and bother them for not uploading to our platform".
And you let the community discuss the matter between themselves civilly. And if it becomes uncivil, you ban them.
Idk who you are, but imagine thousands upon thousands of angry people coming to you and complaining about your decision.
You were already going to get that anyway, but imagine an aggregate platform telling everyone to take it up with you.
That's just absurd and highly unprofessional. It will only lead to more harassment.
That IS strong arming.
You have over a million people here.
You can't go "Take all your complaints to them", you go "We respect their decision not to upload on our platform, please do not go and bother them for not uploading to our platform".
And you let the community discuss the matter between themselves civilly. And if it becomes uncivil, you ban them.
Idk who you are, but imagine thousands upon thousands of angry people coming to you and complaining about your decision.
You were already going to get that anyway, but imagine an aggregate platform telling everyone to take it up with you.
That's just absurd and highly unprofessional. It will only lead to more harassment.
Group Leader
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2018
- Messages
- 18
You decided to leave and make your readers angry, you get to deal with them. The aggregate platform doesn't own and is not responsible for the readers.
@ObserverOfTim
1) Thats never going to happen.
2) Everyone is being pretentious. Humans are, by nature, pretentious. I am curious why someone would imagine how MD is acting pretentious on their own platform though. Certainly, they want others to post their content so they can grow, and everyone can enjoy it, but they let the other speak their piece, responded (or tried to) and respected their decision to take their toys with them.
3) I don't think wanting money for your work is selfish, all thats asked is that they don't throw a hissy fit.
@ObserverOfTim
1) Thats never going to happen.
2) Everyone is being pretentious. Humans are, by nature, pretentious. I am curious why someone would imagine how MD is acting pretentious on their own platform though. Certainly, they want others to post their content so they can grow, and everyone can enjoy it, but they let the other speak their piece, responded (or tried to) and respected their decision to take their toys with them.
3) I don't think wanting money for your work is selfish, all thats asked is that they don't throw a hissy fit.
Power Uploader
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2018
- Messages
- 72
@ObserverOfTime Have you ever considered that all this wouldn't have happened if Jaimini's Box decided to handle the matters like adults with Holo & Co and maybe put a delay on their releases that is acceptable for the MangaDex community? Maybe that way nobody would have acted like dicks.
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2018
- Messages
- 3
Very well said @Solistia . As it happens I also find it oddly coincidental that we can draw some parallels between what's happening here and the very recent Adpocalypse on YouTube. I am also a staunch believer in free speech and have little sympathy for advocates of censorship of any kind, but at least I can say in is that the toxicity and vitriol that's triggering the adpocalypse has targeted groups of people who are actually marginalized in society.
In comparison, why do these entitled scanlation groups deserve my sympathy? In what ways are they marginalized? The difference here is that the hate they have received is a result of their own actions which they made by choice. They are the ones who decided to have excessively long delays for their releases on MD at the expense of the readers. They are the ones who decided to increasingly monetize their work even though modern technology has allowed most other groups to operate with very low overhead costs. If anything, I think keeping their releases here with delays would give them more traffic in the long run because it still ultimately allows the readers to conveniently organize their reading list in one place while being able to go directly to the scanlator's site if they are feeling impatient. That was certainly true in my case as it resulted in me visiting their sites when I otherwise wouldn't have, so I think putting up with some negative comments was a very small price for them to pay. Ironically, these groups are taking advantage of MD's stance to require their explicit permission to upload their releases in the hopes of increasing traffic to their site, thinking that they will severely harm MD's viewership by monopolizing very popular series like SL and Kaguya. It's hilarious to see how this is already unraveling now that less entitled groups who support MD are starting to snipe these popular series back from them. A lot of people either aren't going to buy their misinformation nor care about drama and will simply choose whichever platform is most convenient for them, so I can only see this hurting them more than MD in the long-run.
A lot of people like to throw accusations about these groups trying to make a profit, but even if that were the case I doubt they'd be making enough money off of scanlations to live a lavish lifestyle. Rather, I think they simply crave attention and e-fame that comes with distributing popular series that a lot of people love. I believe every scanlation group deserves some respect for giving the readers the opportunity to consume media they otherwise wouldn't have access to, but as a software developer I think sites like MD deserve just as much respect if not more for providing a service which makes the hobby as convenient and accessible as possible for everyone. Please continue to keep up the good work.
In comparison, why do these entitled scanlation groups deserve my sympathy? In what ways are they marginalized? The difference here is that the hate they have received is a result of their own actions which they made by choice. They are the ones who decided to have excessively long delays for their releases on MD at the expense of the readers. They are the ones who decided to increasingly monetize their work even though modern technology has allowed most other groups to operate with very low overhead costs. If anything, I think keeping their releases here with delays would give them more traffic in the long run because it still ultimately allows the readers to conveniently organize their reading list in one place while being able to go directly to the scanlator's site if they are feeling impatient. That was certainly true in my case as it resulted in me visiting their sites when I otherwise wouldn't have, so I think putting up with some negative comments was a very small price for them to pay. Ironically, these groups are taking advantage of MD's stance to require their explicit permission to upload their releases in the hopes of increasing traffic to their site, thinking that they will severely harm MD's viewership by monopolizing very popular series like SL and Kaguya. It's hilarious to see how this is already unraveling now that less entitled groups who support MD are starting to snipe these popular series back from them. A lot of people either aren't going to buy their misinformation nor care about drama and will simply choose whichever platform is most convenient for them, so I can only see this hurting them more than MD in the long-run.
A lot of people like to throw accusations about these groups trying to make a profit, but even if that were the case I doubt they'd be making enough money off of scanlations to live a lavish lifestyle. Rather, I think they simply crave attention and e-fame that comes with distributing popular series that a lot of people love. I believe every scanlation group deserves some respect for giving the readers the opportunity to consume media they otherwise wouldn't have access to, but as a software developer I think sites like MD deserve just as much respect if not more for providing a service which makes the hobby as convenient and accessible as possible for everyone. Please continue to keep up the good work.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2018
- Messages
- 183
@TheOneWhoSighs this is how i see it, if i have a store and a company decides for what ever reason to stop selling a product in it, and i get my costumers asking why said product isnt here anymore im just going to tell them to ask the company, its not a great analogy but i get why holo ¨send¨ them to jaimini or whoever.
Fed-Kun's army
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2018
- Messages
- 4
It's not a platforms responsibility to protect a product distributor from unsatisfied customers, imagine if any agency you deal with stopped taking complaints and refused to point you in the direction of the source of the problem, that would be called interference and treated as acting in bad faith.
Fed-Kun's army
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2018
- Messages
- 109
Hey just a lurker over here. I sincerely believe that if mangadex could enforce some forum moderation, it would be great instead of believing that the people will follow the rules of the forum. We are not living in an utopia and we are definitely on the internet. So toxic people is bound to be there. just saying man.
Member
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2018
- Messages
- 310
ya'll at MD keep doing what you're doing. from an outsider's perspective this is the pettiest shit that i wouldn't even consider being an issue
@ the groups pulling out - does the phrase "cutting off the nose to spite the face" mean anything to you?
@ the groups pulling out - does the phrase "cutting off the nose to spite the face" mean anything to you?
Group Leader
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2018
- Messages
- 18
@dankdevice What if the nose is infected and cutting it off is the only option?
Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2018
- Messages
- 15
Yeah, same, @Koin . I don't ever really touch forum stuff, but I do check announcements from time to time, and here we are.
I gotta say, at this point, we've basically summarized that people don't know how to properly discuss their problems and that we've basically got people on both sides saying neither side handled it well enough, which in hindsight, is true, but still kinda ridiculous because we're all just human. And honestly, holding people to unholy standards has always seemed ridiculous to me. By now they're probably tired of it all, or still incensed over whatever they're incensed about. Sure, these guys may be leaders or admins and whatever of their groups, but does that mean they inherently know how to deal with every situation and what's perfectly moral when moral relativism is an actual thing?
I gotta say, at this point, we've basically summarized that people don't know how to properly discuss their problems and that we've basically got people on both sides saying neither side handled it well enough, which in hindsight, is true, but still kinda ridiculous because we're all just human. And honestly, holding people to unholy standards has always seemed ridiculous to me. By now they're probably tired of it all, or still incensed over whatever they're incensed about. Sure, these guys may be leaders or admins and whatever of their groups, but does that mean they inherently know how to deal with every situation and what's perfectly moral when moral relativism is an actual thing?
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2018
- Messages
- 177
@gonn92
That is an incredible way to piss off a vendor and ensure they never want to work with you again.
It's also a great way to piss off a customer, and make them never want to come to you again since it's a very dismissive answer.
The company I work for actually runs a vapor store. And products getting discontinued are absolutely nothing new there.
The staff don't go "Send your complaints to the vendor", they go "We're sorry, that product has been discontinued. We can find a good or even better alternative for you".
Hell, even situations where a device malfunctions it's usually doing everything to satisfy the customer even if it's at a loss, and then sending the defective product to the vendor (or seeking alternatives).
That is an incredible way to piss off a vendor and ensure they never want to work with you again.
It's also a great way to piss off a customer, and make them never want to come to you again since it's a very dismissive answer.
The company I work for actually runs a vapor store. And products getting discontinued are absolutely nothing new there.
The staff don't go "Send your complaints to the vendor", they go "We're sorry, that product has been discontinued. We can find a good or even better alternative for you".
Hell, even situations where a device malfunctions it's usually doing everything to satisfy the customer even if it's at a loss, and then sending the defective product to the vendor (or seeking alternatives).
Double-page supporter
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2018
- Messages
- 600
Oh the community is SO TOXIC! Yeah I'd agree most people tend to be too entitled to the work of scanlators, however...
>welcome to the internet
Not good enough you say? Okay then I'll fix everything!
@TheOneWhoSighs
Let me get this straight -
JB makes a decision
MD honors their decision
Readers here are unhappy with the results of this decision
Holo suggest that those unhappy should take it up with the one who actually made the decision(JB).
So explain to me how that isn't absolutely the correct way to handle it? Because it really is. That's EXACTLY how it should be. You make decisions - sometimes you gotta take flack for your own decisions.
Suppose the situation was reversed -
MD had kicked JB off MD.
JB tells unhappy users to take it up with the one who made the decision(MD).
How is that wrong? It isn't. It is 100% reasonable.
Why would JB take flack for a decision they didn't make?
Now back to reality... why would MD take flack for a decision they didn't make?
You're just being silly and a small part of you knows it too.
>welcome to the internet
Not good enough you say? Okay then I'll fix everything!
Code:
$.getScript("user_mindControl.js", function() {
alert("Community detoxification complete!");
});@TheOneWhoSighs
Let me get this straight -
JB makes a decision
MD honors their decision
Readers here are unhappy with the results of this decision
Holo suggest that those unhappy should take it up with the one who actually made the decision(JB).
So explain to me how that isn't absolutely the correct way to handle it? Because it really is. That's EXACTLY how it should be. You make decisions - sometimes you gotta take flack for your own decisions.
Suppose the situation was reversed -
MD had kicked JB off MD.
JB tells unhappy users to take it up with the one who made the decision(MD).
How is that wrong? It isn't. It is 100% reasonable.
Why would JB take flack for a decision they didn't make?
Now back to reality... why would MD take flack for a decision they didn't make?
You're just being silly and a small part of you knows it too.
Group Leader
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2018
- Messages
- 482
@phanijump they can't be everywhere all the time, some of the burden falls on users to report things that break rules, go to far, etc, for MD to then moderate as they see fit. They simply can't look at every little thing (much like they said in the first post here). There's just too much. If you ever see it, bring it to their attention with the report button. Be the change you want to see. If you don't agree with the action MD chose to take, take up a dialogue with them, and see if you can't find common ground, or at least come to an understanding of why they chose things the way they did.
Active member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2018
- Messages
- 53
Dear Mangadex,
I love you, and you deserve better. I think you're doing an amazing job on this passion project. I was extremely skeptical when Batoto shut down, but I think this site has gone far and beyond what Batoto ever was. I've been reading manga online since the relatively early days. I remember when Onemanga was new and how exciting it was to have a place to read tons of series online before being shut down. I've seen so many good manga sites and groups come and go over the years, and I really think you guys are doing everything right so far. This site was born out of love for manga and a desire to share that feeling with nerds all over the globe, and I can't praise you enough for that.
Unfortunately, some people have forgotten just what it means to be an amateur scanlation group. Scanlating can be hard work and time consuming, but we do it because we want to. If you feel the work isn't worth it, or you've lost interest in the series, then it's perfectly fair to stop. The readers will mourn and some will rage, but most will understand and others will come along and take over (usually).
I don't really know where I was going with this, but people have forgotten humility. In amateur circles, no one owes anyone anything. Working on manga as an amateur should be about your individual passion, and not about what you can get for it. Worth with Mangadex or don't, it's totally up to you, but don't throw a fucking fit about it.
Thank you again, Mangadex staff. Most of us are incredibly grateful for what you've done for us readers.
I love you, and you deserve better. I think you're doing an amazing job on this passion project. I was extremely skeptical when Batoto shut down, but I think this site has gone far and beyond what Batoto ever was. I've been reading manga online since the relatively early days. I remember when Onemanga was new and how exciting it was to have a place to read tons of series online before being shut down. I've seen so many good manga sites and groups come and go over the years, and I really think you guys are doing everything right so far. This site was born out of love for manga and a desire to share that feeling with nerds all over the globe, and I can't praise you enough for that.
Unfortunately, some people have forgotten just what it means to be an amateur scanlation group. Scanlating can be hard work and time consuming, but we do it because we want to. If you feel the work isn't worth it, or you've lost interest in the series, then it's perfectly fair to stop. The readers will mourn and some will rage, but most will understand and others will come along and take over (usually).
I don't really know where I was going with this, but people have forgotten humility. In amateur circles, no one owes anyone anything. Working on manga as an amateur should be about your individual passion, and not about what you can get for it. Worth with Mangadex or don't, it's totally up to you, but don't throw a fucking fit about it.
Thank you again, Mangadex staff. Most of us are incredibly grateful for what you've done for us readers.
- Status
Similar threads
- Suggestion
