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Shit. In hindsight, I probably should have known better than to trust anything from this dungeon.
Dungeon Meshi - Vol. 9 Ch. 62 - 6 Days
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@CountBaltorious those are some great answers.
But that would mean that the Winged Lion as the guardian of the kingdom, has powers that encompass the entire dungeon, not just the kingdom at the lower levels, and that would mean his existence overlaps with that of the demon and Thistle as the ruler of the dungeon.
But that would mean that the Winged Lion as the guardian of the kingdom, has powers that encompass the entire dungeon, not just the kingdom at the lower levels, and that would mean his existence overlaps with that of the demon and Thistle as the ruler of the dungeon.
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the lady mangaka was actually retconning the time-line with this chapter . below are 2 pages in this chapter 62 and chapter 50 : https://mangadex.org/chapter/500314/1 :
in chapter 50 , when laios is throwing the bell , armored samurai dude and kabbage dude and the elf-s are walking from the surface to the 1st level of the dungeon .
in chapter 62 , samurai dude is in casual clothes , and kabbage dude is at the other side of the teleport scroll .
in chapter 50 , when laios is throwing the bell , armored samurai dude and kabbage dude and the elf-s are walking from the surface to the 1st level of the dungeon .
in chapter 62 , samurai dude is in casual clothes , and kabbage dude is at the other side of the teleport scroll .
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@Doomroar
Precisely... the wing and lion motif is repeated throughout the dungeon indicating the Winged Lions influence, even the daemonic book displays the wing motif on is cover. However, the Winged Lion is chained at bottom of the dungeon by Thistle limiting the Winged Lions direct influence, the daemonic book on the on the other hand appears bound by the Winged Lion (judging from its binding).
So it might be that Thistle is the dungeon lord, the deamonic book is bound by the Winged Lion, and the Winged Lion is imprisoned by Thistle. Thus, either the daemonic book is acting as a focus for the power of the Winged Lion, or the Winged Lion is acting to focus the power of the daemonic book, but both have been restricted by Thistle directly or indirectly.
Or the simplest explanation is that the deamonic book and the Winged Lion are two aspects of the same thing. But I like the Winged Lion, so I will avoid taking the easy route.
Precisely... the wing and lion motif is repeated throughout the dungeon indicating the Winged Lions influence, even the daemonic book displays the wing motif on is cover. However, the Winged Lion is chained at bottom of the dungeon by Thistle limiting the Winged Lions direct influence, the daemonic book on the on the other hand appears bound by the Winged Lion (judging from its binding).
So it might be that Thistle is the dungeon lord, the deamonic book is bound by the Winged Lion, and the Winged Lion is imprisoned by Thistle. Thus, either the daemonic book is acting as a focus for the power of the Winged Lion, or the Winged Lion is acting to focus the power of the daemonic book, but both have been restricted by Thistle directly or indirectly.
Or the simplest explanation is that the deamonic book and the Winged Lion are two aspects of the same thing. But I like the Winged Lion, so I will avoid taking the easy route.
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Interesting, the elf that adopted Kabru is the same that saved Misurn.
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@CountBaltorious you have convinced me about the possibility of the winged lion not being a trap, however explain to me one last thing.
Why was the Winged Lion trying to appeal to Lauis desires rather than straightforward ask him for help as the guardian of the kingdom? why the need to haggle and temp him into something that could horribly backfire? specially knowing how the dungeon reacts to desires by granting them. Even if he plans to have Lauis kill the demon or eat it, this move of his is kind of odd and unnecessarily risky, since the demon can offer the same thing and the idea has already been planted in Laius head by the Winged Lion himself.
Why was the Winged Lion trying to appeal to Lauis desires rather than straightforward ask him for help as the guardian of the kingdom? why the need to haggle and temp him into something that could horribly backfire? specially knowing how the dungeon reacts to desires by granting them. Even if he plans to have Lauis kill the demon or eat it, this move of his is kind of odd and unnecessarily risky, since the demon can offer the same thing and the idea has already been planted in Laius head by the Winged Lion himself.
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@Doomroar Tricky... I consider myself weak at reading intentions in fiction and reality...
I would guess long term gain in exchange for short term risk, The Winged Lion intends to make LaiusWitch-king of Angmar the king of the land and a good king (or head of state) needs both a sense of duty and vision for the future of their country. An unwilling king is likely to run away or simply be a bad king, hence the part of the dream's purpose would be to instill help instill in Laius vision and a sense of duty before the responsibilities of a kingdom might overwhelm him and interfere with clearly formulating a vision of the future.
Why would the Winged Lion show the kingdom as having flaws other than to instill a sense of duty, I would expect a daemon would show the kingdom as a utopia in order to give it maximum appeal and evoke the maximum amount of desire.
I would guess long term gain in exchange for short term risk, The Winged Lion intends to make Laius
Why would the Winged Lion show the kingdom as having flaws other than to instill a sense of duty, I would expect a daemon would show the kingdom as a utopia in order to give it maximum appeal and evoke the maximum amount of desire.
Personally, I would expect daemons to be capable of convoluted scheming and introduce flaws in what was offered to make it seem real and easier to swallow, but I am examining things from the viewpoint of the Winged Lion being a guardian spirit
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@CountBaltorious that's very interesting, but... in the same dream we are shown that the ones taking care of the problems and the needs of the kingdom were Marcille and Farlyn.
Laius was just a vessel of desire to shape the dungeon, just like Thistle... he even compared himself to Thistle mentioning that the mad sorcerer must have had to deal with similar worries, and we know how things turned out for him, for Laius to be the one to solve the problems himself, he would have to end wishing for solutions rather than thinking and designing them (specially since he is not exactly the brains of the group), or issuing new policies like his sister and Marcille were doing in the dream.
To me showing Lauis an ideal yet flawed kingdom is something that plays perfectly with the modus operandi of the daemons we have already seen, more than a gamble into trying to groom an ideal king, specially since the Winged Lion is not in a position to be gambling (assuming that he is indeed a guardian, and not a minion of the daemon or the daemon itself).
For me the Winged Lion seems to cover the same role as the Magic Mirror in Masrun's case, they plant the idea or bring forward the base desire in order for the daemon to then grow it and harvest it... although now that i think about it, actually, he can do this while being the guardian of the kingdom, that part doesn't has to be a lie, it doesn't has to be one thing or another, he can be both, hear me out:
So i said initially that the Winged Lion was a minion of the daemon, but maybe they are partners in a give and take relationship.
Laius was just a vessel of desire to shape the dungeon, just like Thistle... he even compared himself to Thistle mentioning that the mad sorcerer must have had to deal with similar worries, and we know how things turned out for him, for Laius to be the one to solve the problems himself, he would have to end wishing for solutions rather than thinking and designing them (specially since he is not exactly the brains of the group), or issuing new policies like his sister and Marcille were doing in the dream.
As we know from Misurn's flashback to the times he was a dungeon lord, as time advances the life in the dungeon, the architecture of the dungeon, the monsters of the dungeon, and most importantly the problems faced by the dungeon become more and more complex, thus forcing the dungeon lord to make new wishes in order to deal with the new problems, but those wishes in turn make the dungeon even more complex, creating a positive feedback loop, which in turn strengthens the daemon, until either there's no more desire to be eaten, the dungeon reaches stagnation, or the daemon becomes powerful enough to leave.
So you are correct in thinking that daemons create convoluted schemes in their offers, i don't think that should be in spoilers, because that's what happened to both Thistle and Misurn, their worlds were not ideal, they had problems in need of solutions, and the method to solve them was through wishes, more wishes brought in more desires, and more problems, creating the perfect field for feeding the daemon. That's why complex and rare desires are more desirable than simpler ones like common greed.
So you are correct in thinking that daemons create convoluted schemes in their offers, i don't think that should be in spoilers, because that's what happened to both Thistle and Misurn, their worlds were not ideal, they had problems in need of solutions, and the method to solve them was through wishes, more wishes brought in more desires, and more problems, creating the perfect field for feeding the daemon. That's why complex and rare desires are more desirable than simpler ones like common greed.
To me showing Lauis an ideal yet flawed kingdom is something that plays perfectly with the modus operandi of the daemons we have already seen, more than a gamble into trying to groom an ideal king, specially since the Winged Lion is not in a position to be gambling (assuming that he is indeed a guardian, and not a minion of the daemon or the daemon itself).
For me the Winged Lion seems to cover the same role as the Magic Mirror in Masrun's case, they plant the idea or bring forward the base desire in order for the daemon to then grow it and harvest it... although now that i think about it, actually, he can do this while being the guardian of the kingdom, that part doesn't has to be a lie, it doesn't has to be one thing or another, he can be both, hear me out:
When the Winged Lion told Laius about being the creator of the dungeon and the monsters within, in order to protect the kingdom as per Thistle's request, he was being sincere, everything he told Laius was the truth.
And maybe the Winged Lion has an agreement with the daemon, the Winged Lion lures in adventures with the potential to be king and help protect the kingdom, the daemon uses the desire of the dungeon lord to strengthen the dungeon and as a result make the kingdom prosper, and in turn the daemon gets to have a shot at breaking free from the dungeon, and as part of this system every now and then they exchange dungeon lord/king whenever the current one becomes incapable of defending the kingdom or providing desire.
So the Winged Lion is cooperating with the daemon, probably from the very beginning of the dungeon, and seeing how now Thistle can't defend the kingdom anymore he now needs a replacement for the kingdom's ruler, after all adventurers have been getting closer and closer to the lower levels, and with the arrival of the Canaries the replacement became even more urgent (maybe this is the real reason why the Winged Lion contacted Laius, it was not that they got closer to him, it was that a more serious danger to the dungeon and the kingdom appeared so he needed Laius to hurry up).
However Thistle found out that the Winged Lion was searching for someone to replace him and had the Winged Lion imprisoned, that's how despite being once the very guardian of the same kingdom that Thistle is trying to protect, the Winged Lion has fallen out of favor, not because he can't be of use to Thistle, but because Thistle can no longer be of use to the Winged Lion.
And since the Winged Lion doesn't needs to lie when luring in the replacement dungeon lord/king the scheme and trap becomes harder to find out for the potential victim, the Winged Lion doesn't needs to lie, just keep the whole tale from being told, thus as if they were consumables the guardian and daemon pair go around gobbling up people until they are empty and useless just to fulfill their own callings in life.
And maybe the Winged Lion has an agreement with the daemon, the Winged Lion lures in adventures with the potential to be king and help protect the kingdom, the daemon uses the desire of the dungeon lord to strengthen the dungeon and as a result make the kingdom prosper, and in turn the daemon gets to have a shot at breaking free from the dungeon, and as part of this system every now and then they exchange dungeon lord/king whenever the current one becomes incapable of defending the kingdom or providing desire.
So the Winged Lion is cooperating with the daemon, probably from the very beginning of the dungeon, and seeing how now Thistle can't defend the kingdom anymore he now needs a replacement for the kingdom's ruler, after all adventurers have been getting closer and closer to the lower levels, and with the arrival of the Canaries the replacement became even more urgent (maybe this is the real reason why the Winged Lion contacted Laius, it was not that they got closer to him, it was that a more serious danger to the dungeon and the kingdom appeared so he needed Laius to hurry up).
However Thistle found out that the Winged Lion was searching for someone to replace him and had the Winged Lion imprisoned, that's how despite being once the very guardian of the same kingdom that Thistle is trying to protect, the Winged Lion has fallen out of favor, not because he can't be of use to Thistle, but because Thistle can no longer be of use to the Winged Lion.
And since the Winged Lion doesn't needs to lie when luring in the replacement dungeon lord/king the scheme and trap becomes harder to find out for the potential victim, the Winged Lion doesn't needs to lie, just keep the whole tale from being told, thus as if they were consumables the guardian and daemon pair go around gobbling up people until they are empty and useless just to fulfill their own callings in life.
So i said initially that the Winged Lion was a minion of the daemon, but maybe they are partners in a give and take relationship.
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This is cool and all but the demons are treacherous and its obvious they are the best when it comes to manipulating people to achieve their own goal. It doesnt matters how good the lion appears to be, having full power or not, its goal should still be the same. Get the trust of the new-to-be dungeon master, offer him what he wants for his own desires flowrish and then when a crisis happen its desires should get stronger and be more filling for the demon.
Thats ofc just my 2 cents, there may be those 'good demons' who could use their power for something else other than self-fulfilling long term plans, thats a well known cliche.
Thats ofc just my 2 cents, there may be those 'good demons' who could use their power for something else other than self-fulfilling long term plans, thats a well known cliche.
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@Doomroar First off, I believe your position/theory fits the data, however the position of the Winged Lion is a malevolent entity is a much easier position to hold and for that position the Winged Lion and the daemon do not have to be separate. You trapped me, in order to give my considered opinion on another person's position I need to reveal the weaknesses of my own position that I am aware of.
Disclaimer
I believe with position of the Winged Lion being a malevolent entity a far simpler theory would be that the Winged Lion is the daemon of the dungeon.
I try to force them to be separate using the following data (this is not all the data, but critical data I can undermine), for the sake of my official postion.
First, kingdom apparently had a winged lion as a guardian spirit prior to the existence of the dungeon. Thus the Winged Lion should not be a daemon as the daemon should enter the material realm with the dungeon not before.
Next , all daemons displayed so far have the same eyes, we came across a book with those eyes, and the Winged Lion does not, thus it appears a daemon exists in the dungeon in the form of a book and the Winged Lion should not a daemon as two daemons seems improbable and he does not have the eyes.
Assuming the Winged Lion is a daemon:
Disclaimer
My official position is the Winged Lion is a benevolent entity and this requires that a daemon exists, to explain the daemonic influence in the dungeon, and that the Winged Lion is not a daemon. My reason for this position is that I really like the Winged Lion and want him and Laius to ride of into the sunset of a happy ending and I believe that this position is possible to defend with the available data.
I believe with position of the Winged Lion being a malevolent entity a far simpler theory would be that the Winged Lion is the daemon of the dungeon.
I try to force them to be separate using the following data (this is not all the data, but critical data I can undermine), for the sake of my official postion.
First, kingdom apparently had a winged lion as a guardian spirit prior to the existence of the dungeon. Thus the Winged Lion should not be a daemon as the daemon should enter the material realm with the dungeon not before.
Next , all daemons displayed so far have the same eyes, we came across a book with those eyes, and the Winged Lion does not, thus it appears a daemon exists in the dungeon in the form of a book and the Winged Lion should not a daemon as two daemons seems improbable and he does not have the eyes.
Assuming the Winged Lion is a daemon:
The first position can be undermined by the kingdom having a winged lion as a guardian spirit prior to the dungeon does not mean that the Winged Lion is that guardian spirit. The guardian spirit worshiped might not have ever existed (people can worship fake spirits or gods even in world where the genuine article exists) or no longer exists. Assuming the Winged Lion is a daemon he could have stepped into the role because of the similarity of his appearance or eaten the guardian spirit if it got in his way after the dungeon was formed. This position is supported by Ch 60 where the Winged Lion stated that over 1000 years he came to care about the people of the kingdom and the monsters of the dungeon, a guardian spirit should have already cared about the people of the kingdom while a daemon would have only had the 1000 years of the dungeon. Hence, it fits with the Winged Lion being the daemon of the dungeon.
The Winged Lion being the daemon dispute not having the eyes can be maintained by:
1. We do not know all daemons have the same eyes that is only all those we have observed so far
2. We do not know that the Winged Lion Does not have those eyes as the only time we met him was in a dream, and the appearance in a dream does not have to match the physical form perfectly.
That a daemon already exists in the form of a book can be simply countered by the position is that it is an artifact connected to the Winged Lion and thus an aspect of him rather than a separate daemon.
The Winged Lion being the daemon dispute not having the eyes can be maintained by:
1. We do not know all daemons have the same eyes that is only all those we have observed so far
2. We do not know that the Winged Lion Does not have those eyes as the only time we met him was in a dream, and the appearance in a dream does not have to match the physical form perfectly.
That a daemon already exists in the form of a book can be simply countered by the position is that it is an artifact connected to the Winged Lion and thus an aspect of him rather than a separate daemon.
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Oh boy Misurn's flashback is the stuff of nightmare, and that demon-breaking-through-dungeon spread is just magnificent.
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@CountBaltorious Well i guess we will have to see what the real identity of the Winged Lion is, i still suspect him of being an entity separate from the Daemon but that collaborates with it.
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Looking at these replies, I now have 3 theories:
1. Winged Lion is the demon.
2. Winged Lion might be a neutral entity, but can be corrupted and turn evil.
3. Winged Lion and demon are two different entities.
Either way, all of three are fun choices
1. Winged Lion is the demon.
2. Winged Lion might be a neutral entity, but can be corrupted and turn evil.
3. Winged Lion and demon are two different entities.
Either way, all of three are fun choices
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Don't worry guys, Laius is smarter than what we think, he is, more than anyone else in his party, understand the danger of monster, especially the charming and seemingly innocent one...
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So the Winged Lion actually the Demon? God, this is getting more complicated
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Ah I knew the winged lion was too good to be true
@CountBaltorious, The goat demon has ordinary goat eyes though.
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Holy mother of mackerel! Senshi's been in the dungeon longer than anybody. He's nearly enlightened, but the dungeon kept him as a tool... and waited... waited for a proper party to take him to taste a hippogriff, and he would be the unique guide to keep them more safe. It was all... Dungeon Keikaku.
