Fixing the drama problem

[SGR]

To my shock and dismay, a series I particularly enjoyed got removed from the site recently. In fact the group handling the series pulled ALL of their work off Mangadex. There's no reason to pull names and point fingers - the people who are interested in the topic already can make an educated guess as to what's going on. And it's not the first time stuff like that occurs here apparently. Shit gets sour on a regular basis and Mangadex is suffering for it.

The true reason floating around is usually the toxicity of "The Community". Now just recently Mangadex staff asked in a poll if more policing should be put in place to combat that toxicity. The answer is an overwhelming NO from "The Community". Which is understandable and which is the primary reason why I sarcastically put "The Community" in quotation marks. Cause "The Community" consists in an absolutely overwhelming majority of Lurkers. The minority are people who bother post comments. And when they bother to - they usually have a strong reason: to complain and be a Toxic Little Shit. And then there's the third subgroup - the frequent posters who want to turn "The Community" into a community.

What's that got to do with anything though? Well Mangadex is schizophrenic to the core. It wants to have a cake, leave the cake on a city square for a month, come back to see it untouched, eat the cake and never have to poop the cake out:
[ol][li]Scanlators have full control of whether to upload here - but they have absolutely 0 control over what happens after the upload is made[/li][li]Mangadex prides itself on being fair to scanlators - yet it's blatantly obvious that any aggregation site is unfair, because it drives people away from their sites and income sources[/li][li]Mangadex wants to be a clean, nice environment - yet the only control is done on the uploads - especially weeding out "group's sites affiliated with sites that are deemed malware"[/li][li]Mangadex wants to be a community - but functionally it is an aggregation engine AND NOTHING MORE[/li][/ol]You cannot build a community when there's no one around to weed out the Toxic Little Shits. You cannot weed out the Toxic Little Shits if you don't have people that are invested in weeding out Toxic Little Shits and have the tools to do so.
Who's most affected by Toxic Little Shits? Scanlators.
Who's feeding the Toxic Little Shits with their work? Scanlators.
Who doesn't have any power to deal with Toxic Little Shits? Scanlators.

Scanlators willing to upload here are the sole reason for this site's existence. Let's then give them something back.

PROPOSAL:

Scanlators to have a moderation power on the chapters they upload and series they "own":
[ul][li]The power is to ban a user from viewing and commenting on the scanlation group's content for 10 days ONCE. No administrative oversight.[/li][li]The power to request a permaban of a similar nature [EDIT: meaning - only from the group's releases] if the user commits a second infraction. Said permaban to be reviewed and decided upon by the site's administrative team through an easy-to-use interface (showing the first and second infraction). Without the requirement for scanlators to write lengthy e-mails/posts. The user is banned until proven innocent by the administrative team.[/li][li]The first infraction gets wiped after 6 months.[/li][li]A tool for the administrative team to investigate potential sock-puppet accounts when a spike of first-time-bans on 0-day accounts happens. Just a % heuristic result - not requiring much work from administrative staff. Of course the staff would be encouraged to banhammer the shit out of the user.[/li][/ul]

Why do I think it would help? Well _Retard pulled his stuff a few weeks ago pretty much for the reason of this being the only option to take revenge on the Toxic Little Shits. But that's just dropping a nuke on a town just cause a few douchebags happen to live there. And then it turns out the douchebags were out of town doing their douche things. Allowing to have a private little vengeance to vent steam would surely benefit the well-being of the site's true contributors - while also being limited enough not to be a major hassle to legit users, should the contributor turn out to be the Toxic Little Shit.

EDIT: GenuineSounds refined the concept to something much less controversial, while still being true to the spirit of what I am suggesting. His idea is better than the above. Here's the post: https://mangadex.org/thread/91046/1/#post_749085

 

[Pika]

I feel like this is going to be abused to high heaven heh

That aside, that doesn't make those toxic people read it in other sites and still comment in Reddit. (You know, where the trainwreck goes and where a lot of scanlators look at)
I think this function will be detrimental to mangadex...

 

[SGR]

@Pika
[ul][li]What is truly detrimental is contributors leaving this site cause the Toxic Little Shits got to them. The shits themselves are disposable - they're a minority anyway.[/li][li]Comments on reddit can't really make the creators leave Mangadex - they may leave scanlating as a community, but that's something we can't combat (yet).[/li][li]The ultimate goal is incentivizing creators having their primary community hubs on this site - not reddit. This could be the first step to do it.[/li][li]I specifically made this proposal with potential abuse in the back of my head - hence the one-time non-reviewed limitation.[/li][/ul]

 

[LowSanity]

@SGR define "Toxic Little Shits" for me, please.
I absolutely not agree with banning ppl from commenting and viewing stuff.
I quite often point out typos and mistakes. I quite rarely comment something positive or negative 'bout any series i read. I can already see myself being banned for pointing out typos or negative comment on series i'm dropping.
How are you going to prottect the viewers when this power will be abused and will hurt Mangadex down the line?
I don't think that Managadex should take stance in any drama. Would you like for the gevernment official to step into any drama you are a part of and decide who is right and who is wrong? I don't. It will end up in ppl leaving anyway.
That's my hot take after just reading your first comment.

 

[ItsQuote]

i would be vehemently against giving any kind of ban authority to anyone outside the moderation team, most especially if impacted users are guilty until proven innocent. this would essentially degrade md into a set of individually hosted group sites with their own sets of rules and their own insular communities.

what one group defines as a "toxic little shit" would be entirely different to all the others, and i am not about to memorize umpteen different sets of rules to keep viewing content - i would rather just not comment at all. if i express an opinion with strong language but a polite tone, am i being toxic? someone's bound to think so. and i should be barred from even reading the entirety of the group's content simply because of how i chose to write a comment?

drama has always existed, and there are always going to be petty people who do shit just to get a rise out of us. kneejerking in response will only lead to fracturing the community even more.

 

[Alexandregd]

The user is banned until proven innocent by the administrative team.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_guilt

 

[SGR]

@LowSanity
Toxic Little Shits -> an exemplar would be people who complain that the translation is too slow
"I can already see myself being banned for pointing out typos or negative comment on series i'm dropping. " - Then there's no point in us conversing further. I see creators (scanlators) as people who are mature enough to ignore criticism on the series (cause they didn't make it the way it is) and embrace another layer of proofreading. You don't. From your perspective any empowerment of scanlators is detrimental and there's no way for me to dissuade you.
"I don't think that Managadex should take stance in any drama." - Not taking a stance in favor of creators will be the downfall of Mangadex.
"How are you going to prottect the viewers" - The viewers are protected by this power essentially being usable once.

@ItsQuote
"this would essentially degrade md into a set of individually hosted group sites" - I don't see it as a degradation and that's the core agenda behind this suggestion.
"kneejerking in response [to drama] will only lead to fracturing the community" - There is no community right now. Because there are no limits to how much creators can be molested.

@Alexandregd
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy - see? I can use links too!

 

[Teasday]

Reminder that I'm a developer, not a moderator or administrator (in name, at least), but personally speaking even if I were to even entertain this idea I would at most give group leaders the ability to ban people from posting comments on their releases and group page specifically. Not from viewing the chapters, not from posting comments on the general manga comment section, absolutely not banning them from the entire site.

In practice that's going to lead to implementing an annoyingly specific feature and a whole bunch of complaints to the staff, so I'd rather not.

 

[SGR]

@Teasday
Banning from the entire site was never in the OP - if you've at any point read my suggestion like that - you misinterpreted or I wasn't clear (likely both).
And in regards to the practical assessment - are you talking about the original suggestion or the "at most" you delineated in your previous paragraph?

 

[DbHuntzz]

I actually thought it was a dumb idea at first, but as long as their powers are contained to blocking a user from their own releases and it's a decision made by the leader of the group, I see no problem with it. It would be similar to users being able to block each other, and it makes sense that a group would be able to do it as well. It leading to any kind of ban is going way too far. If the scanlators are regarded the privacy of their releases and possibly destroying their reputation and butchering their reach, then it's fair enough.

And that's my objective view.

Now I have to say, pulling your work because of some criticism, trolling or toxic comment section is really not a mature thing to do. You'd think those guys would be able to take some of it since they're presenting a work that would be up for the quality control test of the viewers...

 

[CrysisWar1234]

Unless if they're going out of their way to harass and intimidate the group scans on their websites and on every piece they upload, then I see no need for any type of restrictions. Just because you don't like their opinion doesn't mean it gives you the right to ban them.

 

[Teddy]

Scanlators have full control of whether to upload here - but they have absolutely 0 control over what happens after the upload is made

False, they can pull chapters.

Mangadex prides itself on being fair to scanlators - yet it's blatantly obvious that any aggregation site is unfair, because it drives people away from their sites and income sources

False any scanlator group can stop their translations from being on here. Or add time penalty.

Mangadex wants to be a clean, nice environment - yet the only control is done on the uploads - especially weeding out "group's sites affiliated with sites that are deemed malware"

Haven't seen this, can't comment myself.

Mangadex wants to be a community - but functionally it is an aggregation engine AND NOTHING MORE

But forum games and giveaways... But yeah, I thought the art and Literature forum would get more traction with people sharing their creations.

Agree with Teasday. No viewing is dumb cause you can just go guest. No commenting on general manga is dumb because different groups release different chapters. No commenting on individual chapters is least dumb but would perfer "this comment was moderated by scanlator group" instead.

Yeah this would get abused really well and be a pain for staff to review even with 1St and 2Nd infarctions. Cause they would have to read what other people said to them too.

 

[Valkynaz]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be for people to act like adults? Someone says something mean? Ignore them, someone says your translation/typesetting quality is shit? Either ignore them, or take it as constructive criticism with a side of salt, I really don't understand why people keep letting these comments get under their skin except that they might want to pull out of MD to force people onto their website and are looking for a "out" to try and mask said redirection, otherwise it all seems completely pointless and childish.

TL;DR Can we all grow up and stop the BS? As long as it's not literal harassment or attempted "intimidation" (If you can even intimidate translating manga) can we just ignore it and move on?

 

[crazybars]

@SGR

Refer to page 8 of the Mangadex Clarification on rules and Moderation thread.

https://mangadex.org/thread/90179/8

=============================
There is no way Mangadex could have stopped such childish behavior. Hatigarm telling Mangadex to remove scanslator group's Facepalm's release because their credit page was designed to taunt Hatigarm and expecting Mangadex to remove it wasn't just embarrassingly stupid. It shows that they think the rules revolve around themselves. Wut? Other Scanslator groups have no rights now? No thanks!!

Hatigarm then pulls some of their chapters, and then Meraki scans to pull all their chapters. For Mangadex not removing Facepalm's chapters because of a credits page making fun of Hatigarm for asking for donations. Really? Did they care about how inconvenient it was to their readers or for innocent people? NO!!!! Let's REMOVE ALL THE chapters over something akin to elementary school name calling.

Don't kid yourself. Hatigarm and Meraki themselves were the toxic shets who will cut their noses off for the smallest chance to spite you if you so much as call them names. If this triggers them, pretty much any little minor shitty thing will as well.

 

[LowSanity]

@SGR I wouldn't say that we have no point to converse. My stance is pro viewer/reader, yours is pro creator. You are right, you will not persuade me but we can try to find some solid ground in between.
For example let's take videogames, dumpsterfire that was fallout 76. It was on bethesda own platform so they were deleting negative comments. Ppl flustrated with their horrible practices had no place to vent their frustration so they flooded reddit and other bethesda games on steam with negative comments. I believe that this behaviour was justified. Users of their game were disempowered and bethesda was controling the platform so the only way for the customers to complain was to set fire to everything else. Why would i think that empowered scanlators will not do the same?
Ppl that are complaining 'bout translation being too slow are generally teen readers that want to see their favourite stuff faster from my experience. I don't think i ever conversed with any of this commenters that happened to be resonable adults.
From my experience on Facebook, Twatter and Reddit 90% of the time when i think i'm providing valid criticism(in my opinion) i get blocked or shadowbanned.

You have a point one time only usable power wouldn't be so bad,

 

[GenuineSounds]

For what it's worth, here are some of my thoughts on the subject.

[ul]The power is to ban a user from viewing and commenting on the scanlation group's content for 10 days ONCE. No administrative oversight.[/ul]
[ul]The power to request a permaban of a similar nature [EDIT: meaning - only from the group's releases] if the user commits a second infraction. Said permaban to be reviewed and decided upon by the site's administrative team through an easy-to-use interface (showing the first and second infraction). Without the requirement for scanlators to write lengthy e-mails/posts. The user is banned until proven innocent by the administrative team.[/ul]
[ul]The first infraction gets wiped after 6 months.[/ul]
[ul]A tool for the administrative team to investigate potential sock-puppet accounts when a spike of first-time-bans on 0-day accounts happens. Just a % heuristic result - not requiring much work from administrative staff. Of course the staff would be encouraged to banhammer the shit out of the user.[/ul]

Why ban viewing? Scanlators should be able to hide comments, delete comments, and revoke users' priviledge to comment on their group's content. Restricting access to content itself should be beyond the scope of any non staff.

Three strikes system:
First and only strike lasts 3 months and resets. Upon second infraction within those 3 months and user is given two strikes that last 6 months. third and it's a permanent comment privilege revocation.

1 Strikes: User is quieted on group content for a week; no admin needed.
2 Strikes: User is quieted on group content for one month; no admin needed.
3 Strikes: User is quieted on group content permanently; no admin needed.
Admins can be notified if group decides to argue that user should be banned from the site entirely; admins will take it from there.

Groups should not be allowed to issue more than one strike at a time for a user. A HEALTHY restriction, if something is that bad then admins should be notified anyway. It is almost impossible for any group to be perfect in handing out strikes so three strikes is more reasonable in handling the 'unlikely' event that a user is striked for something trivial.

Strikes are serious but should not be permanently in effect. Reasons given for a strike should be required on second and third strikes. If one needed to give a quick strike on a first timer one would not want to put the time into justifying the strike

 

[Aereus]

@SGR - As a fellow fansubber, translator, and scanlation all-rounder that has seen and suffered their fair share of drama:

Scanlators have full control of whether to upload here - but they have absolutely 0 control over what happens after the upload is made

True and self-evident. This is the internet, once it's out there, it's out there.

Mangadex prides itself on being fair to scanlators - yet it's blatantly obvious that any aggregation site is unfair, because it drives people away from their sites and income sources

Fuck everything about this. This is a HOBBY and the roots of fansubbing/scanlation are in promoting something for love of the series/author/awareness/etc. The authors literally in some cases work themselves to sickness and death drawing it: We have no real claim to the work and it sickens me how "monetized" the scene has become. If your entire group can't afford $6 for a manga volume and "losing ad revenue" is a concern, you aren't in this for the right reasons and you should stop. It's also never been "cheaper" to scanlate: So many series are flat-out serialized online these days, public raws can be found, or you can buy an ebook for a couple dollars.

Uploading to an aggregator for hosting is free. Dumping to imgur or something is free. Wordpress blogs are free. What do people expect money? Where are these "huge expenses" coming from?

You cannot build a community when there's no one around to weed out the Toxic Little Shits. You cannot weed out the Toxic Little Shits if you don't have people that are invested in weeding out Toxic Little Shits and have the tools to do so.
Who's most affected by Toxic Little Shits? Scanlators.
Who's feeding the Toxic Little Shits with their work? Scanlators.
Who doesn't have any power to deal with Toxic Little Shits? Scanlators.

What does people being assholes on the internet have to do with scanlation? The world is filled with "Toxic Little Shits" —do what you do in real life and ignore them. There is no way of knowing how old anyone is online and you cannot expect there not to be a lot of Immature Tween Twats™ in a market whose primary demographic is aimed at 7-24 year olds. If they have their own sites, then they can moderate that all they want and live in their little circle-jerk of blissful praise. They don't have to read any of the comments on MD or any other aggregator.

Holo, Teasday, Ply, etc. on the MD staff have poured an incredible amount of time and effort into this site. As a fellow Compsci major I'm amazed at what they've accomplished with the site. You have actual professional developers who are then coming home after work and... doing more developing for us. For free. And making a bunch of cool features. With no ads. Or bitcoin miners. Or malware. Adding extensive moderation features would take not only a lot of development resources, but also a lot of moderation hours from volunteers as well. Just so some scanlators don't get their feelings hurt when someone makes a flippant comment on the internet. This system would be abused by thin-skinned scanlators who want to turn MD into their own echo chamber. And what happens when multiple groups are working on a series and people make comments preferring one version over another?

I spent a solid 5+ years doing fansubbing and done scanlation off and on now for another 5. The count of times I've been sniped by people doing a shitty job or just to spite me are numerous. The number of ungrateful comments I've read are legion. You have to accept that for whatever reason, some people are just going to be jerks or not have the maturity to realize when they are making selfish statements. You should be doing it because you enjoy it and it makes you personally happy and fulfilled. If you can't do that, or you aren't enjoying it then some introspection is called for.

Mic Drop

 

[Kaarme]

@Aereus A most excellent comment very much based on realism!

A scanlator can withdraw their releases from Mangadex, but are they also going to withdraw them from KM and the multitude of other ad/malware driven, bot scraping aggregator sites, huh?

 

[LowSanity]

@Aereus i couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[goronyanpai]

Intelligence at different levels is shown by Aureus.
I really like it.