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[Orangechrisy]

@refki
For one thing, being trans isn't a defect or a disorder. Perhaps you are thinking of gender dysphoria? Currently the only known cure for gender dysphoria is transitioning, whether that be medically and/or socially, other methods have been tried such as therapy with the goal of getting the person to not be trans (this is called conversion therapy) which has had no good results and has just shown to be dangerous and detrimental. Hypnotherapy and whatever habit and act intervention is are not cures and have never been shown to be cures. Nothing besides transitioning has been shown to treat gender dysphoria. If someone managed to create a miracle drug that got rid of all the dysphoria a person has, I bet some people would take it. I for one wouldn't, I would prefer to be a girl dealing dysphoria, unacceptance, and everything else that comes with it, than to be a guy. But there are a number of trans people who would want to just take a pill, get rid of their dysphoria, and go back to "normal" life. But that drug doesn't exist, and from what we can tell so far, will likely never exist. But again, if someone does somehow create it, cool, great, it can be offered to people with dysphoria if they want it.

Back in the like 60s and earlier, being gay was considered a mental illness in America. You could quite literally replace everything you said about trans people with gay people (and change a bit of the wording to fit obviously), and nothing would change. The exact same arguments could be used, and have been used in the past, about gay people. There's no real point to anything you are saying, it's really just, for lack of a better term, concern trolling.

Also, you kinda say some concerning things.
"And the most important: the parents of left-handed people don't assign them on irreversible treatment..."
Neither do the parents of trans children, a more apt comparison here would be how the parents and teachers and other figures of authority of left handed kids try to force left handed kids to write with their right hands only or try and force them to not use their left hand. This is a well known thing that happens and has happened and thankfully people aren't doing it as much anymore because it's very detrimental to left handed kids. Similarly, it's parents and other figures of authority who try to force trans kids to not be trans, its not a thing that happens. No one forces kids who draw with their left hands to be left handed, just as no one forces crossdressers to be trans. To suggest that that happens is entirely a transphobic fearmongering talking point.
"If you said you know more than expert:"
Sure, experts are usually experts at what they do, but like, that doesn't mean they are right 100% of the time. A neat fun fact: heart attacks in men and women aren't always the same, and women tend to have different symptoms and whatnot than men. But, doctors who are trained about heart attacks pretty much only learn about the male symptoms. This has caused heart attacks in women to not be treated as seriously and for more women who say they had a heart attack to be ignored and blown off. In a similar vein, there are a lot of "experts" (like psychiatrists and whatnot) who don't know what they are talking about in regards to gender. Gender dysphoria doesn't even show itself in the same ways for everyone. Suggesting that only trans people who are diagnosed by the experts are trans is just kinda ignorant about the whole thing. Not every trans person fits into the box of what is deemed to count for being a trans person and not every "expert" uses the same box to judge people, some just say "not trans" no matter the case since they don't believe trans people exist.

It really sounds like you could stand to learn more about gender dysphoria, trans healthcare, and what it is to be trans in general.

 

[BorkBork]

@rfki I was left-handed as a kid, but my sister forced me into the other direction. And by the time I was even aware of it I was already right-handed. Now I can't even imagine myself being a lefty. Was that a bad choice? Probably not.

I think a lot of things could be made for the better if kids weren't thought to fool around or thought pointless garbage in school, but that's just how it is And no one really wants to go against the flow because that would be a bad thing.

As mentioned in the manga, lettings kids be who they are without forcing them upon things is one step in the (somewhat) right direction. Both parent and child needs to be educated on this further for this to even work out long-term. And as you mentioned, forcing them a permanent change they may regret later on is not a good either, especially if they have no idea what they're doing or what it'll mean later on in life. This will sadly keep being a catch 42 until we've moved on from our current technology. Transhumanism is where we want to be but that's so far off right now.

The first obstacle is really to stop with this enforced sexist gender normality, But who's gonna take that seriously? People have had this idea ingrained into them for thousands of years. We even have religions based on this very concept. it's simply second nature like child prostitution/slavery or marrying your cousin and having kids even if they're (what we consider) underage. But that's the norm in some places, because someone though: That's my fetish, and some people agreed. And so it became, and carried on to the next generation. You can't simply undo this very simple idea that is rule (reality) and law in many places.

Now I know hormone blockers exist, but how far you really (really) wanna go with that really depends on the person taking them. And if they haven't figured out anything by 16-18, then I don't really know what to say. Time is finite and the longer you wait the harder it's gonna get. You have people who transition well into their middle-age, but for what reason? Peer-pressure as in our social and gender norms we're so "proud off"? Or for simply not being true to themselves even when the same option has been there for almost a decade? That's all on them in the end. From what I've read then some wanted to have kids and such things but that's still on them in the end if they waited that long. It's the same taboo topic like how some people divorce until AFTER their kids grow up and leave the next that THEY decide to split. So you're telling me in those years that a compromise couldn't be made? Because people are lazy and ignorant enough to let it drag on for 10-20 years? That's still on them for being like little children.

It's the same with people coming as out as bi or homo. It shouldn't be a thing yet it is (ignoring societal norms here). And somehow the norm is that you have to act a certain way because of it. Bye hey, stereotypes aren't born outta of nothing after all. And the people who follow these "stereotypical behaviors" are only doing others a favor in the end and keeping the torch from fizzling out. This is is simply how you normalize "bad behavior" for yourself and others in a similar position and people aren't even aware that they're doing it, because they can't really think for themselves. Just because I started drinking coffee doesn't mean I had to believe that pigs could fly but that's pretty much how the general human reasons, and why I don't simply understand. Maybe because I never had that cool-aid everyone keeps talking about.

Again, there are no solutions, only compromises. And that is fact. yet people like to act as if the opposite is true. Now imagine if the former was actually commonplace. What a world we would live in! Humans are extremely hypocritical creatures in the end just like how they're inherently evil by nature. And this is simply a fundamental thought everyone should know and/or be taught if anything.

 

[refki]

@Orangechrisy oh, thank you for explaining it to me. So, you said: Gender dysphoria is a state/defect/disorder when someone born in the wrong type of body. Like their minds dont really accept/feel comfortable in their sex-assigned role/gender. If it is yes, then that's what i really mean.

And to add: did you said that trans is the state of people AFTER they receive sex-change surgery? If yes, then it explain many things. For once:

1) Trans is not a disease/disorder/defect, Gender dysphoria is.
2) The proven cure for Gender dysphoria is sex-change surgery, that is, in other words, by being trans.
3) To take that sex-change surgery or being trans, (I suggest, and at the same time i hope your government do too) you must first diagnosed & examined by (at least) an expert. You can ask more for more opinion, because not all expert is always 100% right all the time. This is so you dont regret it later.

If all of that is true, then i support it. If, in scientifical means it is applicable & can be proven (if there's exist a tool or method like psychological test & questionnaire, or even something like specific pattern in brain wave signal, or hotmonal difference, etc) like when they diagnose another mental and health related illness/conditions, then I as one of the health-related professional, specifically as an pharmaceutical expert, accept it.

You know, i really like this kind of discussion, it give me more opportunity to exercise and gain more material to learn. This is a good discussion, please feel free to correct me and my summary above.

 

[BorkBork]

Take the US as an example, a relatively young country that has Christianity so ingrained into its society more so than any other western country (laughs in Eastern European). It's even printed on their money that "in god we trust". That's one way to breed lunacy not to mention what happens when you put all your eggs in one basket and call it a day. Same reason as to why US the is only western country with systemic racism just like how systemic alcoholism is an issue in Russia.

Christianity (as any other Abrahamic religion) is the one of the top-tier forms of indoctrination, more than so any ideology because it's so old. You don't simply change peoples mind on things when over 50% of the population believe in lunacy. You have a book of dumb logic and facts that some people take as face value and if that book says being gay is bad and raping your wife whenever and and she has no rights and it shall be so (hello patriarchy because women are just goods nothing else). This has tacked on til now and will continue to do.

We're gonna have to wait at least 25 more years if we want actual positive change because then your biggest obstacle, the boomers (the legacy) will be gone. After that it's pretty much anyone's game.

edit: What I'm getting at is that most religions have always been gatekeepers for pretty much anything that they don't or can't control. This is obviously bad for anything you want to improve, like general knowledge, technology or even science (remember that one?). Why I specifically picked the US is because that legacy strongly lives on there even to this day. Feel free to mention any other country that follows the same "standards" in the west if you know any.

@refki: You are diagnosed with Gender dysphoria (umbrella-term) and become/identify as transgender/non-binary (or whatever) as a result. The "sex-change operation" is not the result but a step in that way (like hormones or hair removal), often for biological and/or legal reasons such as being allowed to change your name and gender on your birth certificate or social security number that is often identifiable by what gender you are stamped as.

Nowadays you can do those things in some countries without having to go through all steps which has its pros and cons. Changing your name is as easy as paying 100€ and switching over your cards for new ones. Same with social security/equivalent in other countries.

Depending on where you live, a lot of psychiatrists and psychologists can be quite the gatekeepers just like religion as I mentioned earlier. In the worst case scenario you really don't have anywhere else to go but to play their waiting game until they drag your and their time long enough that they hopefully give in and commit to the cause. Most of these types are actually pretty incompetent at their work (field) but you can't really say that to them now can you? Most of these gatekeepers were actually boomers and have since moved on and I hear it's better these days compared to how it was before.

There is no "cure" per say for Gender dysphoria even if people like to say so. There are only compromises that are hopefully for the better for your continued well-being. Most women who go the other way don't really have any "real" option so to speak and only do top-surgery and continue onwards because "turning" a vagina into a "functioning" penis isn't exactly possible right now, while the opposite is more true because a penis and the scrotum is pretty much just an "extended" vagina fused together so you'll only be lacking the proper plumbing so to speak.

 

[moikkai]

@refki
Damn, it's nice to see discussions about trans issues ending in some form of understanding. I've been following the medical consensus for a while so I thought I'd chime in on that front:

- Gender dysphoria unfortunately doesn't totally go away for most, but it can be severely lessened by transitioning. However, transitioning encapsulates both medical and social procedures; some may be helped by simply performing gender differently (using different pronouns, clothes, changing their name, etc) whilst others may need to transition medically (HRT, surgeries). Most do both, but it depends on what the person and their medical support decide is best. This is why, if you've ever seen people talking about this stuff in media, you might've heard some medical professionals say it's "okay for kids as young as X to transition". Some people might get angry at that, thinking they're talking about medical transition, but they're not. The most they might suggest is something like puberty blockers, because they are reversible and severely reduce suicidality down the line.

-Tests for trans individuals are usually done through multiple in-person sessions with an expert. This is further complicated by the fact that some trans individuals can experience little to no gender dysphoria at times, despite checking all the other boxes. It seems that, in the same way social expectations/forces can often differ depending on time and place, so do the experiences of trans people and their dysphoria. That's probably why there's no one (accepted) standardised questionnaire or anything. Attempts have been made to use brain waves and such, but they were ultimately determined to be (mostly) unreliable for common use. There seems to be some merit to it (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm, titled "Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age.") but it's inconsistent first and foremost (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0149763415002432). It's not dissimilar to how patients with PTSD or other disorders get diagnosed; while it's possible to detect some form of distress or certain patterns, that's not usually the determining factor.

-In some of your earlier comments you alluded to the fact that trans people should not self-diagnose and, although I suspect your perspective might've changed already, I thought I would mention it anyway: they aren't necessarily self-diagnosing their dysphoria, but rather affirming the identity which feels correct to them. This is unique to transgender individuals, in this sense. They might "self-diagnose" in the same way that someone with PTSD might recount their trauma, looking more at the factual ramifications of dysphoria (self-harm, self-hate, etc) than the particular medical diagnosis. It's also important to understand that many trans individuals do not self-actualise their identities through their dysphoria, either because it's not always present or because it's not the driving force. The current consensus (according to every major health organisation and all recent meta-analysis on the subject) is that there's utility in trans individuals self-identifying, because it reflects positively on their mental state and they seem to be generally truthful in their assessments. There's also social benefits, I'd argue, but that's not something medical consensus is all that preoccupied with, haha.

This stuff is interesting to me probably because I'm trans myself and wanted to understand it, but if you're interested and maybe want a more "pop" introduction to this stuff, look up ContraPoints on YouTube! Have a nice day.

 

[BorkBork]

Also anyone not lucky with early help will usually self-medicate once (I hope) mentally old enough to make that decision. That's also pretty much what I would consider when you're mentally prepared for what's to come. Especially when you're fighting puberty unless you're lucky to be physically androgynous or one way or the other depending on your goal. For some that can simply mean an early death if things aren't going in their direction. This is also a taboo topic which is where the fear mongering partly comes from.

Hormone blockers have their function at an early age, but it's still a ticking time-bomb. Wanna grow tall? Might not happen. Wanna be short? Might not happen. Hips or shoulders might not grow the way you want because you waited to long because epiphyseal closure kicked in. This is more concerning towards people with inborn errors where options are less viable.

We all have our genetics but you simply can't delay puberty forever unless you want permanent side-effects. Something that isn't really talked about because decisions are usually made in a few years when it's still a viable option. You wouldn't wanna wanna delay your puberty til your 20s if you understanding what I'm getting at.

If you're unlucky and your dad looks like a playstation character, chances are you're gonna be one as well unless you do something about it very soon. Assuming that isn't your end goal. Because no amount of surgery is ever gonna fix that.

You can can have low overall circulating hormones but still have enough growth hormone where the above mentioned becomes a thing. Genetics and inborn errors still play a large roll in that. And when you block gH then you really gotta start thinking unless you or your child wants a negative outcome when it still matters.

Then you got the whole problem with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development which is a hot topic in itself. Or those with defective estrogen alpha receptors or vice versa.

 

[Orangechrisy]

@moikkai has the good stuff. Thank you for saying all that

@refki
Probably best not to refer to both being trans and gender dysphoria as a defect or disease, it is neither. Gender dysphoria can be considered a disorder (and I for one would probably put it in that category), but generally when people refer to it as such they are trying to pathologize it so you gotta be careful, most people don't tend to speak about it in the strict medical terminology which is probably the only context dysphoria would be talked about as a disorder.
Being trans is just having a gender that is different from the one assigned at birth (and gender dysphoria is the distress someone has due to their gender not matching the rest of them), having sex reassignment isn't what makes someone trans. As moikkai said, there's a number of different parts and paths to transitioning, sex reassignment surgery is generally the biggest one to undertake. Most trans people don't have sex reassignment surgery mostly because it costs a huge amount a trans people are generally poorer than the average person. Most trans people do however socially transition and medically transition through HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy), but again, transitioning isn't what makes someone trans.
In order to get sex reassignment surgery or any trans surgery, a trans person needs to speak with an expert because its a huge surgery and it's not something anyone can do without ample preparation and whatnot. In order to get on HRT pretty much everywhere a trans person will need to see a psychiatrist or gender therapist in order to "diagnosed"/given the okay to get on HRT. There is starting to be more places that offer informed consent, which is a practice where if someone is of legal age and fully consent to it, they can get on HRT (because an adult can kinda do whatever to their body that they want, that's their right). This isn't widely available at all and not the most common. The vast majority of trans people have to go through a number of evaluations and therapy meetings and the like in order to begin HRT. The requirements to get sex reassignment surgery is a fair bit more than to get on HRT, but I am not close to that point in my own transition so I haven't yet checked exactly what is needed to do.

I'm glad you're liking this discussion and are willing to learn, there's too many people in these comments that aren't willing to do that.

 

[AverageDudeWithAveragePenis]

@BorkBork:

All this could be quickly solved if "diverging sexualites" and "diverging gender norms/roles" stopped being treated as a disease/disorder.

I don't see them being classified as a disorder or disease.

A man can be feminine or gay. That's fine.


But I think you're talking about the weird term area.

Like "pansexual" isn't really necessary when you have bisexual. And a bunch of the other sexualities/identifies that ultimately already have a name for themselves.

But this is the snowflake generation where they have to feel special don't they?

It seems like every other day a new sexuality/gender drops. No one really cares.

 

[IllyasvielHime]

My heart melted, this is what I was yearning for. This is great !

 

[moikkai]

@AverageDudeWithAveragePenis TL;DR "I do not know what these terms mean, but would very much like to complain about them anyway."

 

[BorkBork]

@AverageDudeWithAveragePenis it has nothing to current trends. I'm strictly talking about anything that isn't hetero and has been treated as either death or destruction. I don't care about marriage and never will. But if you are punished to death for being gay, then you are essentially killed for wrong-think. Let that sink in for a moment.

You know what, I don't like what you're saying so I'm gonna get you helicoptered.

 

[kenhugh]

@AverageDudeWithAveragePenis Wow, gatekeeping gender identity/sexuality, that's hilarious. Just because you don't identify as a certain gender/sexuality doesn't mean other people don't. People are just as entitled to their feelings as you are to yours.

 

[citrus3301]

still no trans lesbian rep :feelsbadman:

 

[Raven_Sloth]

@refki how the fuck is an expert going to know my gender more than me tho? I am the only person who lives my experience. I have known since high school I was nonbinary and we don't have much if any research on why nonbinary people are nonbinary. What my therapist did wasn't tell me that "yes you really are agender" but to help me fight my anxiety and depression and come out to my family and friends. My gender witch asked me what I wanted to do with my body, made sure that I didn't think the drugs would do more than they do and gave me my drugs. When I do go into surgery they won't give a shit about my gender, just what they are cutting out. Also lots of nonbinary people don't medically transition at all because of their gender.

I started medical transition with the goal of reducing arm and leg hair and redistributing my fat to how I would like to look. Now I know that T also makes my skin feel disgusting. After a while I decided I wanted to cut off my balls, but guess what, I have to wait another 6 months(altho I probably won't be able to get it then either because of covid). Like I can understand not letting children have body altering procedures, but I am an adult. I already have had unalterable change through hormones, so that isn't the reason (altho if I was trans masc I might not? I don't know enough to say for certain). If I was transitioning to womenhood it would only be more.

It doesn't really make sense to force people to wait a year of doing hormones before you allow them to have surgery. It doesn't make sense for someone to get the ok from multiple therapists if they have known their gender since childhood. There are transphobic medical professionals, as well as clueless ones who despite saying that they are an ally, just don't understand trans issues at all. I wouldn't even have to really convince them, the bigger issue is convincing the insurance company to actually pay for it. Do any of them count as experts enough to decree my gender? Fuck no. I am the only person who can tell people my gender and sexualty because I am the only one who has experience as me.

Edit : I also think that you should look into cochlear implants a bit. Sure there are deaf people who don't want people to get them, but all of the deaf and hard of hearing people are perfectly fine with it as long as it is the decision of the individual. If you get one knowing that it will break in 10 years without maintaining it, and that it is permanently going to stop you from ever scuba diving, then sure. But insurance companies will only pay for it once when given to children. At some point that kid won't be able to hear, and I can only imagine how traumatic that would be if they weren't taught asl, which isn't common among children of hearing parents. Also as most of the issues are social it makes more sense to deal with them at a social level. Deaf people wouldn't need to mostly interact with other deaf people if we just taught everyone ASL. Disabilities are when your environment does not match your circumstance, not when you are not part of a narrow group of "normal people".

 

[Narehate]

How the fuck are you guys still arguing in this comment section? Jesus Christ. Throw essays at each other in PMs or something.

 

[CallMePlez]

Puts on helmet and gas mask
alright, I'm heading into the comment section.

 

[Orangechrisy]

@Narehate
Cause transphobes keep posting stuff and if you only respond to the transphobia in PMs then it doesn't help counter the transphobia to any third party reading the comments.

 

[Louveen]

Hi

 

[xuesteria]

this manga,, definitely deserves a higher rating. it's rare to find an lgbt+ positive story that truly tries to explore different aspects and perspectives in the community, with all it's identities. japan might have a wealth of BL and GL stuff, but rarely does it actually cater to the demographic it supposedly depicts (let's be real, it's usually hetero-fanservice).

it's certainly not perfect--for instance, the childhood lesbian friend's extreme disgust of men and mild terf-ish behaviour--but it really does try to create an inclusive and educational space.

i know some people might have thought, "ehh it's the 21st century, why are they like a charicature?" when we encounter people like mogu's dad. but trust me, in asian society, or just any conservative space they really do think and say things like that even now. it's not an exaggeration, and i appreciate that the author depicted like that.

it's especially insightful to highlight how people, lgbt or otherwise, can hurt each others feelings, but also learn to understand and accept each other.

also tetsu and mogu are so cute together TT

 

[Orangechrisy]

@xuesteria
If you check out the stats of the manga, it's been review bombed with ones. If you remove just the one votes then the rating jumps to around 8.8 or so. Imo, the only reason it has that many ones is due to people who don't like the contents of it (aka positive depictions of queer people), since there isn't much of a reason to rate it that low otherwise.