Gal Can't Be Kind to Otaku!? - Vol. 7 Ch. 47 - Otaku & Gyaru & Supporting Faves

[Scipo0419]

Did you see me using Mr. or Ms. and stuff like that in the manga?
I knew some people will try to argue with that point, I just didn't bother to go into details, because its quite obvious what I meant after writing the example in my opinion.


Right, imagine trying to cater to a larger number of people and try to give the term some proper meaning for a better reading experience instead of assuming everyone knows what oshi means.


Once again, it's true there are terms that are widely known in the west already, and I do think those things are also better left untouched (see honorifics, or otaku, etc.), but my example wasn't that, and you all read the translation, we kept honorifics and the word otaku and some more terms I can't really remember right now, so not even sure why is everyone going off on me about that.

I can't really fact check you on the "Oshi is becoming a more commonly known word as well", but I personally never really heard it anywhere else except the more recent Oshi no Ko manga/anime, but outside of that I haven't seen anyone ever mentioning the word oshi. I heard IDOL, but not OSHI.

Plus, why do you all assume everyone is like you guys, that "readers must surely know what OSHI means if they read an OTAKU manga?!" The answer is no, not everyone knows that, and I know this because I get a lot of feedback on translations.

I tried my best to localize the word OSHI, and I know its not perfect, but its better than writing OSHI, assuming everyone knows what it means, and then adding a note for each wordplay they make to explain to readers what's happening.

P.S. I guess it was my mistake trying to include all groups of people.


Edit: Sorry if I seem passive aggressive, I was pretty annoyed while writing this comment.

Look, I get it, it's frustrating when your hard work and effort seemed to backfire and I can promise you that the overall consensus is: we appreciate you and your team's hard work in providing these chapters to us.

That being said, the first time I came across "oshi" in a Manga, the translator put a single line note in the margin to explain what the word means the first time it came up, and a more detailed explanation in the afterword pages. I also disagree with your note about "itadakimasu" as "thanks for the meal" isn't really a good translation and it's better to explain what the intent behind this word is than use a ham-fisted localization.

If Oshi was as simple as "idol" or "favorite character", I'd agree that you should just translate it. But it's more nuanced than that. I genuinely thought the word they were using was a slang for "favorite" so you localized it to "fave", but now that I know it's "oshi" I know it's way more nuanced than "favorite".

Ultimately though, you're the translators and you're the ones who make the final call on localizations. I'm just giving my two cents as a reader. Again, I appreciate your hard work and efforts.

 

[Exile]

If Oshi was as simple as "idol" or "favorite character", I'd agree that you should just translate it. But it's more nuanced than that. I genuinely thought the word they were using was a slang for "favorite" so you localized it to "fave", but now that I know it's "oshi" I know it's way more nuanced than "favorite".

Bit it is, its not that nuanced .... its really just a term.

Its not the same as honorifics that have a deeper connection because they indicate the relationship just like the use of first name and surname, it used to be a thing in the west as well.

The problem is more that this is Japanese media created for a Japanese audience and naturally will have Japanese idioms and non-Japanese readers should familiarize themselves with it, I would say this is more of a American problem as they got used to a cultural supremacy were everything they consumed was related to American culture, its only good manners to try to understand Japanese culture instead of asking translators to "localize" it so they dont have to make the effort.

I would even leave Oshi instead of Jav even if anyone should understand what that means at this point because, its really not that hard.

 

[Bornsinner]

Happy Birthday, Otaku-kun!

 

[guygarelard]

Thanks for the TL as always

 

[stephen01king]

Bit it is, its not that nuanced .... its really just a term.

Its not the same as honorifics that have a deeper connection because they indicate the relationship just like the use of first name and surname, it used to be a thing in the west as well.

The problem is more that this is Japanese media created for a Japanese audience and naturally will have Japanese idioms and non-Japanese readers should familiarize themselves with it, I would say this is more of a American problem as they got used to a cultural supremacy were everything they consumed was related to American culture, its only good manners to try to understand Japanese culture instead of asking translators to "localize" it so they dont have to make the effort.

I would even leave Oshi instead of Jav even if anyone should understand what that means at this point because, its really not that hard.

I don't know if you're serious or just being sarcastic, but if you need a whole book to define that one term, as well as the manga making the joke that the term oshi cannot be simply defined by otakus twice now, it clearly shows that it's not just a simple term.

 

[Scipo0419]

I don't know if you're serious or just being sarcastic, but if you need a whole book to define that one term, as well as the manga making the joke that the term oshi cannot be simply defined by otakus twice now, it clearly shows that it's not just a simple term.

Exactly this. A term can be nuanced. A basic off the top of my head English word example is the word "sad". You can be sad for so many different reasons. you're sad because you lost someone (grieving). You're sad because you did bad on that test (disappointed). You're sad because someone called you a name (hurt). You're sad because you got rejected by your crush (heartbreak).

What if a translator took those words (grieving, heartbroken, disappointed, hurt) and localized them to "sad". All the nuance is removed.

Oshi is a bit different because, like schadenfreude, it's more of a term that arose out of necessity to cover a large base and hasn't been broken down into individual words for each nuance (like how sad has been broken down), but localizing it (or itadakimasu) removes any of the remaining nuance because it's a word that can mean different things depending on the context. An music fan may have an oshi from a band. An Otaku may have an anime oshi, Manga oshi, and game oshi. Waifus could be oshis, but not all oshis are waifus.

 

[PreStoneX]

Look, I get it, it's frustrating when your hard work and effort seemed to backfire and I can promise you that the overall consensus is: we appreciate you and your team's hard work in providing these chapters to us.

That being said, the first time I came across "oshi" in a Manga, the translator put a single line note in the margin to explain what the word means the first time it came up, and a more detailed explanation in the afterword pages. I also disagree with your note about "itadakimasu" as "thanks for the meal" isn't really a good translation and it's better to explain what the intent behind this word is than use a ham-fisted localization.

If Oshi was as simple as "idol" or "favorite character", I'd agree that you should just translate it. But it's more nuanced than that. I genuinely thought the word they were using was a slang for "favorite" so you localized it to "fave", but now that I know it's "oshi" I know it's way more nuanced than "favorite".

Ultimately though, you're the translators and you're the ones who make the final call on localizations. I'm just giving my two cents as a reader. Again, I appreciate your hard work and efforts.

The frustrating part mostly comes from how people are not even trying to understand what I meant by my note, and think I included honorifics in it. Where did honorifics even come from? Did we ever use Mr. or Ms. and such in the manga, or use the word nerd instead of otaku???

Also, why do people assume Oshi is such a widely known term?
I've also been in the anime/manga scene since 2006 yet I barely heard that word, never seen anyone else talk about it either, so why do people think everyone knows about it? (I assume the reason is because they are very active in these communities so they often come across it, but for god's sake, other people exists too beside them)

Not gonna lie, at this point it kinda feels like since they know about the word and how nuanced it is, they think that localizing it is already like a sin. Translation comes with responsibilities, and that responsibility is to make the translation understandable for a much larger audience than just the ones who already "know", which I had that in mind. Some translators don't care or think differently, but yeah.

I tried my best to make it understandable, added a note to explain a bit more just in case, yet people are so nitpicky they jump at me the moment they disagree with something, simply because "they know".

Same thing with the itadakimasu thing... though this word I also assume most people know about, why would I keep a japanese word in an english translation? It makes no sense to me even if others know about, plus I always thought its cringe when other translators kept these japanese words...

 

[JJTheWeeb]

I think that leaving words that don't have a direct translation as is isn't a bad thing. I mean, we're keeping Otaku instead of calling him Nerd. We're also keeping the honorifics. Oshi is becoming a more commonly known word as well as Japanese and Korean idol groups continue to gain traction world wide. Also, with the joke that Otaku can't really define what an oshi is, fave doesn't seem right to me, because that's pretty easily defined.

Also, if you know what "Gal can't be kind to Otaku" means, you probably know what an oshi is. In fact, is imagine there aren't a lot of people who have found the scanlation of a manga like this who aren't familiar with the term.

Just my 2 cents as a language nerd.

also wanna add, pretty sure he's "Otaku" because "se-o Taku", there's no way the wordplay there wasn't intented

also will add: seeing oshi translated as fave actually made me understand what oshi meant, so yea terms do be funny

 

[DirkHardpeck]

Reposting from a couple chapters ago:

God, I absolutely HATE people using the term "Fave" for Oshi, because at the end of the day you're still doing TL notes and explaining what Oshi is, because Fave doesn't mean anything. It's not a western concept. You're just making up a term nobody uses instead of using the term that has actual history. And you're not even making it any easier to understand.

 

[PreStoneX]

Reposting from a couple chapters ago:

God, I absolutely HATE people using the term "Fave" for Oshi, because at the end of the day you're still doing TL notes and explaining what Oshi is, because Fave doesn't mean anything. It's not a western concept. You're just making up a term nobody uses instead of using the term that has actual history. And you're not even making it any easier to understand.

Ok dude.

 

[Scipo0419]

The frustrating part mostly comes from how people are not even trying to understand what I meant by my note, and think I included honorifics in it. Where did honorifics even come from? Did we ever use Mr. or Ms. and such in the manga, or use the word nerd instead of otaku???

Also, why do people assume Oshi is such a widely known term?
I've also been in the anime/manga scene since 2006 yet I barely heard that word, never seen anyone else talk about it either, so why do people think everyone knows about it? (I assume the reason is because they are very active in these communities so they often come across it, but for god's sake, other people exists too beside them)

Not gonna lie, at this point it kinda feels like since they know about the word and how nuanced it is, they think that localizing it is already like a sin. Translation comes with responsibilities, and that responsibility is to make the translation understandable for a much larger audience than just the ones who already "know", which I had that in mind. Some translators don't care or think differently, but yeah.

I tried my best to make it understandable, added a note to explain a bit more just in case, yet people are so nitpicky they jump at me the moment they disagree with something, simply because "they know".

Same thing with the itadakimasu thing... though this word I also assume most people know about, why would I keep a japanese word in an english translation? It makes no sense to me even if others know about, plus I always thought its cringe when other translators kept these japanese words...

Yeah, I do think some of the complaints came off too harshly. You're offering a free public translation and I know many of us appreciate it. I only think honorifics examples and the examples like onee/onii and Otaku came up out of a reference to groups who do localize those and cause them to lose the nuance.

I once again disagree with itadakimasu, as it's not just "a Japanese word in an English translation". It's not as simple as "thanks for the meal" even if we accept that as the "best" possible translation. As another commenter used, Schadenfreude is a German word that literally translates to "harm-joy" and is the psychology pleasure of other's harm or misfortune. They're called "loanwords" because there's not really a good direct translation so we just borrow the word directly from the original language. Café (lit. The French word for coffee) and Kindergarten (lit. German for children's garden) are two other examples of loanwords we use regularly in English. It's okay to use loanwords. Itadakimasu is (or should be) one.

 

[DirkHardpeck]

Ok dude.

Ah, great point!

 

[Chronigan]

Did you see me using Mr. or Ms. and stuff like that in the manga?
I knew some people will try to argue with that point, I just didn't bother to go into details, because its quite obvious what I meant after writing the example in my opinion.


Right, imagine trying to cater to a larger number of people and try to give the term some proper meaning for a better reading experience instead of assuming everyone knows what oshi means.


Once again, it's true there are terms that are widely known in the west already, and I do think those things are also better left untouched (see honorifics, or otaku, etc.), but my example wasn't that, and you all read the translation, we kept honorifics and the word otaku and some more terms I can't really remember right now, so not even sure why is everyone going off on me about that.

I can't really fact check you on the "Oshi is becoming a more commonly known word as well", but I personally never really heard it anywhere else except the more recent Oshi no Ko manga/anime, but outside of that I haven't seen anyone ever mentioning the word oshi. I heard IDOL, but not OSHI.

Plus, why do you all assume everyone is like you guys, that "readers must surely know what OSHI means if they read an OTAKU manga?!" The answer is no, not everyone knows that, and I know this because I get a lot of feedback on translations.

I tried my best to localize the word OSHI, and I know its not perfect, but its better than writing OSHI, assuming everyone knows what it means, and then adding a note for each wordplay they make to explain to readers what's happening.

P.S. I guess it was my mistake trying to include all groups of people.


Edit: Sorry if I seem passive aggressive, I was pretty annoyed while writing this comment.

I think it's right to try and make things as accessible to as many people as possible, and there is no right or wrong answer. Except for calling an onigiri a jelly donut. We all know that was wrong.

It really comes down to a personal preference and striking a balance between localization and keeping the original flavor behind the text.

For the record I have no strong feelings on Oshi to Fave one way or the other. I just wanted to provide my opinion on when I thought localization can take away from the translation and enjoyment of the work.

I also want to thank you for translating this manga and for the happiness and joy you bring me every time it is updated.

 

[PreStoneX]

Ah, great point!

You've seen me argue my point with several others in the comment section, yet you still felt the need to share that while acting all rude about it, so like, what can I say to that? You are blind to your own bias lol

Edit: I've answered to your comment in the v2 chapter's comment section...

 

[PreStoneX]

Yeah, I do think some of the complaints came off too harshly. You're offering a free public translation and I know many of us appreciate it. I only think honorifics examples and the examples like onee/onii and Otaku came up out of a reference to groups who do localize those and cause them to lose the nuance.

I once again disagree with itadakimasu, as it's not just "a Japanese word in an English translation". It's not as simple as "thanks for the meal" even if we accept that as the "best" possible translation. As another commenter used, Schadenfreude is a German word that literally translates to "harm-joy" and is the psychology pleasure of other's harm or misfortune. They're called "loanwords" because there's not really a good direct translation so we just borrow the word directly from the original language. Café (lit. The French word for coffee) and Kindergarten (lit. German for children's garden) are two other examples of loanwords we use regularly in English. It's okay to use loanwords. Itadakimasu is (or should be) one.

A loanword is a word borrowed from another language and incorporated into a new one. Itadakimasu is not commonly used in English like kindergarten or café, so it's not a loanword but just a japanese word... (same with oshi for now, maybe in the future it will be more known and will be incorporated into english, but not at the moment)

As I mentioned quite a few times in this comment section, I do think there are some terms that should be kept as it is, for example, someone commented the jelly donut = onigiri thing, and I don't think we ever translated it as that?? If so they should've mentioned it and I'd have fixed it, or maybe it was just an example, not sure, but we also never translated Otaku as nerd, never wrote English honorifics...

Everyone read the manga, so I really don't know why is everyone acting like we did?

 

[Scipo0419]

A loanword is a word borrowed from another language and incorporated into a new one. Itadakimasu is not commonly used in English like kindergarten or café, so it's not a loanword but just a japanese word... (same with oshi)

As I mentioned quite a few times in this comment section, I do think there are some terms that should be kept as it is, for example, someone commented the jelly donut = onigiri thing, and I don't think we ever translated it as that?? If so they should've mentioned it and I'd have fixed it, or maybe it was just an example, not sure, but we also never translated Otaku as nerd, never wrote English honorifics...

Everyone read the manga, so I really don't know why is everyone acting like we did?

No one is acting like you did those things. They're examples of bad localization is all. Onigiri = Jelly Donut is a meme from the first season of Pokémon where the official dub had Brock say "how about some donuts! The jelly filled ones are my favorite!" (or something like that) and he was holding an onigiri.

Yes, a loanword is commonly incorporated into the receiving language, but do you think Kindergarten or Café were commonly used right off the bat? Language is a constantly evolving thing, especially with how connected our world is these days, languages are constantly trading and sharing words between them. Just because it's not commonplace now doesn't it mean it can't be in the future (though, I admit that cultural words like itadakimasu are far more unlikely to become commonplace as the concept of thanking everyone involved all the way back to the farmers who raised the animals/grew the crops isn't exactly something most cultures do.)

As I said in my initial comment. You all are the translators and ultimately this is your project that you're kind enough to share with the rest of us. You could translate "sayonara" to "peace out bitches" and I would have no right to stop you lol. I just wanted to share my two cents as a reader.

I appreciate all you do, keep up the great work.

 

[the_Bear_from_Bearcave]

Bit it is, its not that nuanced .... its really just a term.

Its not the same as honorifics that have a deeper connection because they indicate the relationship just like the use of first name and surname, it used to be a thing in the west as well.

The problem is more that this is Japanese media created for a Japanese audience and naturally will have Japanese idioms and non-Japanese readers should familiarize themselves with it, I would say this is more of a American problem as they got used to a cultural supremacy were everything they consumed was related to American culture, its only good manners to try to understand Japanese culture instead of asking translators to "localize" it so they dont have to make the effort.

I would even leave Oshi instead of Jav even if anyone should understand what that means at this point because, its really not that hard.

I don't think it's American problem, it's actually normal everywhere to localize during translation, and manga/anime fan community is an outlier when it comes to translations due to being already niche community that's very engaged in the Japanese culture. When I read XIX century translations of English poems or literature into Polish, they sure as hell localize a lot instead of keeping English words. And frankly, the idea of reading translation full of "okaeri" or "itadakimasu" feels awful to me.

I really disagree with @Scipo0419 and other people here who think it shouldn't be translated just because it has a slightly expanded meaning, you might as well refuse to translate "ganbare" and so on. Besides, if you know full cultural meaning of "itadakimasu", then you know what Japanese character in manga means when reading text bubble "thanks for the meal", just like you know what they mean when reading "goodbye.. no, sorry. See you again". And if you don't, then itadakimasu just visual clutter, while reading "thanks for the food" give you 95% of original meaning anyway. I've read slightly onee-shota manga once where scanlator refused to translate "shota" into "boy", that was painful to read.

 

[MaCl0wSt]

Thanks for the chapter!

 

[Scipo0419]

I don't think it's American problem, it's actually normal everywhere to localize during translation, and manga/anime fan community is an outlier when it comes to translations due to being already niche community that's very engaged in the Japanese culture. When I read XIX century translations of English poems or literature into Polish, they sure as hell localize a lot instead of keeping English words. And frankly, the idea of reading translation full of "okaeri" or "itadakimasu" feels awful to me.

I really disagree with @Scipo0419 and other people here who think it shouldn't be translated just because it has a slightly expanded meaning, you might as well refuse to translate "ganbare" and so on. Besides, if you know full cultural meaning of "itadakimasu", then you know what Japanese character in manga means when reading text bubble "thanks for the meal", just like you know what they mean when reading "goodbye.. no, sorry. See you again". And if you don't, then itadakimasu just visual clutter, while reading "thanks for the food" give you 95% of original meaning anyway. I've read slightly onee-shota manga once where scanlator refused to translate "shota" into "boy", that was painful to read.

There's definitely a fine line of what should be localized and what shouldn't. Shota is literally just a childlike male character and doesn't have any nuance outside of that meaning, just use "boy." (which can still apply to childlike adult males: "you act just like a little boy" = "you act just like a shota").

Itadakimasu doesn't mean "thank you for the meal" though. It's literal translation is something like "I humbly receive." you can use "itadakimasu" when receiving an award, or asking for help, it's just most commonly used prior to meals as a way to give thanks and express mindfulness of the meal in front of you. So, if a character used "itadakimasu" when receiving a medal for their bravery (lit, I humbly receive this award), would you localize it to "I thank you for this meal" as they're being handed a medal?

You also see it when a "pervy" stalker character is drooling over their interest, or a male Mc walks in on a female changing and says "itadakimasu", they're saying "I humbly receive this view" (which just flows suuuuper awkwardly) but localizing it has people use "thank you for the meal" (as in a feast for the eyes) it works, but loses the nuance behind itadakimasu.

If you don't localize enough you get really cringey shit like your onee+shota example. If you localize too much you lose some of the nuance behind the original text. The delicate balance of a translator (in any media) is capturing the essence of the original work while also making it easily digestible for different cultures and languages. I can't do it, so I appreciate anyone who can lol

 

[Exile]

I don't think it's American problem, it's actually normal everywhere to localize during translation, and manga/anime fan community is an outlier when it comes to translations due to being already niche community that's very engaged in the Japanese culture.

It is a American problem because outside the Anglo-Saxon sphere they had to deal with the cultural hegemony of America. The rest of the world "got used to it".

When I read XIX century translations of English poems or literature into Polish, they sure as hell localize a lot instead of keeping English words. And frankly, the idea of reading translation full of "okaeri" or "itadakimasu" feels awful to me.

There are direct translations that are "easy" and then context, I seen people "localize" Okinawa speech into "Californian" that is simply wrong, when it comes to idioms its just better to leave it as neutral.

There is nothing wrong with leaving terms unstranslated because loanwords exist (even in French) and as much you can have a point with Okaeri, you do not with Itadakimasu since its one of those words that have no real direct translation (it does, its just sounds wrong in English) and localization will also feel wrong.

I really disagree with @Scipo0419 and other people here who think it shouldn't be translated just because it has a slightly expanded meaning, you might as well refuse to translate "ganbare" and so on. Besides, if you know full cultural meaning of "itadakimasu", then you know what Japanese character in manga means when reading text bubble "thanks for the meal", just like you know what they mean when reading "goodbye.. no, sorry. See you again". And if you don't, then itadakimasu just visual clutter, while reading "thanks for the food" give you 95% of original meaning anyway. I've read slightly onee-shota manga once where scanlator refused to translate "shota" into "boy", that was painful to read.

To begin, no ... "thanks for the meal" does not give 95% of the meaning, it does worst because in English that have a religious connection that is absent in Japanese, the direct translation of the word is "to humbly receive" that sounds wrong in english and its one of the cases localization does worst since its a very specific phrase.

Your argument followed to the logical conclusion would also "localize" names, something that happened with characters now being named "Cherry" instead of Sakura, something that did happen, it just shows that people are unwilling to step outside their cultural box and this is how 4Kids happen.

You are taking what is a Japanse product, created for a Japanese audience and set in Japan and remove the Japanese elements, the argument "people that understand Japanese culture will totally understand the meaning" can be turn around and I can ask "why people dont want to learn about Japanese culture when they are reading what is a Japanese product?" that leads me back to the American comment ...

Because they got used to a cultural hegemony were they DONT want to learn about other cultures even when they are reading a product of said culture.