GATE - Jieitai Kanochi nite, Kaku Tatakaeri - Ch. 88

[SlurpNoodle]

@Wilhelm_Stenvall
"My question is whether they had trouble taking out those big troll thingies with the 20 mm metal plates. Realistically, a .50 caliber would be EXTREMELY effective at taking out them, considering how their plates will active the fuses inside the 12.7mm rounds, causing the rounds to explode INSIDE the trolls. If you were efficient with how you aim, you could take them out with one bullet."

12.7 x 99mm is too small to have an active fuse. The best a military (non US) will typically have on hand is the Mk 8 API-T (Amor Piercing Incendiary Tracer) All the crazy Mk 2xx and Mk 3xx series ammunition is fairly recent and typically used by special forces or specialized vehicle-mounted weapons systems. A typical ground combat ammo belt typically has a mix of AP or just plain ball ammo with every 5th round a tracer.

20mm of iron plate doesn't sound like much, but add in a shield and angling and even AP rounds may bounce. Add in the fact that these are 5 meter tall ogres...and 12.7mm may only be marginally effective.

 

[Kaarme]

@SlurpNoodle Those ogres are living things, though. Unlike a vehicle, which would only stop if a critical part within was hit, an ogre would stop for all manner of reasons, as long it's not a relatively simple flesh wound (like a simple flesh wound for real, not Monty Python flesh wound). They would keep going a little better if they were pumped full of some mushroom, but then it's possible they would be useless for anything but random rampage and they might rip off their own armour by themselves. So, I'd say 12.7mm would be highly effective.

 

[ninjadork]

@alidan Yup. One of the most important bits of 20th century history is the interplay between the small group of major America-based Radio / TV News companies before dozens-of-channels cable alternatives came along. Legendary names like Walter Cronkite and Walter Duranty are still considered "Honest Journalists" by many people who lived through their bullshit because they were smart enough to realize that being openly dishonest and jackassed would drive tens of millions of customers away to one of the other major competitors. Duranty is (kind of) debunked now because of his pro-Soviet propaganda during the Holodomor and similar atrocities, but Cronkite is still widely believed even after his rampant horseshit during the Vietnam War and later events.

@Ruhrpottpatriot @alidan Related to my point above; the Tet Offensive is legendary for the fact that, over the incredibly brutal months-long fighting, resulted in some 60,000 casualties (killed, wounded, and missing) for the American Coalition vs 200,000-ish casualties for the NV-China alliance; over 95% of NK-C's total available fighting strength. Strategically, the American Coalition was in an excellent position to push forward and take a hell of a lot of ground in relative safety. But in large part due to the propaganda of Cronkite and other leftist journalists, public opinion back in Australia and the States fucked up the war effort when they could least afford it. It is reasonably factually accurate to say that the primary reason the American Coalition lost the war is domestic political interference and backstabbing back home, propagated by the media.

 

[Wolvenworks]

@SlurpNoodle yes but they do produce a more anti-JSDF biased report back in japan IIRC due to the actually true anti-war stance of japan

 

[schuyguy]

@SlurpNoodle

Everyone in the SDF is innately good, their ends are just and their means are fair. They are not only selflessly fighting for their country, they also are improving the lives of the country they are at war at. Their enemies are pure evil so all the violence is justified. The SDF never allows innocents to come to harm.
Anyone who criticizes the SDF is wrong. Pacifism is not a valid point of view, it's the result of deliberate propaganda by selfish journalists and dishonest politicians who deliberate misinform the public in order to advance their careers. The noble men and women of the SDF are constantly held back by the weak and venal civilians who oversee the military.
The only good politicians and journalists are the ones who always support the military without question, and these few individuals are presented as selfless martyrs fighting against the decadent dominant power structure.
The mainstream politicians are not only foolish, cowardly liars, they are also foreign stooges, willing to sell out their country's interests to Japan's international rivals.

Essentially, this is a story that uncritically parrots all the talking points of Japan's far right.

It's not alone in that. Military sci-fi and fantasy has a long history of promoting far-right or even fascist ideas. This tendency has been so prevalent in English-language media that there were several major books as early as the 70s that acknowledged it for criticism or satire. I think Starship Troopers is probably one of the best examples of this. It's a very enjoyable and well-written book, but there are several points where the author (speaking through a wise mentor of a character) spends several pages extolling the virtues of fascism and criticizing the follies of democracy.

You don't have to look very deeply to see this stuff. I'm not reading between the lines here; these are the obvious messages of this work. To deny them is to deny the author's clear intentions in creating this story.

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@schuyguy

"these are the obvious messages of this work. To deny them is to deny the author's clear intentions in creating this story."

Wow, just wow. Can you thump that manifesto any harder? Sure, I see the socio-political slant of the story, but is that all you can see? Your argument reads like a McCarthyesque witch hunt complete with a railroaded trial and straw man verdict. Be careful when you point that fascism label, it can just as easily be pointed back at you, just look at antifa.

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@Wolvenworks

"yes but they do produce a more anti-JSDF biased report back in japan IIRC due to the actually true anti-war stance of japan"

Yikes, and here I thought you were just talking about their behavior when they were embedded with the troops.

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@Kaarme

"Those ogres are living things, though. Unlike a vehicle, which would only stop if a critical part within was hit, an ogre would stop for all manner of reasons, as long it's not a relatively simple flesh wound (like a simple flesh wound for real, not Monty Python flesh wound). They would keep going a little better if they were pumped full of some mushroom, but then it's possible they would be useless for anything but random rampage and they might rip off their own armour by themselves. So, I'd say 12.7mm would be highly effective."

Your Ogre/vehicle analogy needs some work.
12.7 x 99mm would certainly be more effective than any of the smaller calibers like the various 7.62 and 5.56mm rounds. But that's a very situationally relative thing. I point to the current chapter where the soldiers ran out of ammunition for their 12.7mm machinegun. What conclusion did you draw from that?

 

[Kaarme]

@SlurpNoodle

where the soldiers ran out of ammunition for their 12.7mm machinegun. What conclusion did you draw from that?

It's very easy to run out of ammo on your 12.7mm machinegun. Been there. I just wanted to comment on it because I often find myself annoyed by how living things made of flesh, blood, and bones are often depicted as so tough monsters in fiction. Like Jurassic Park. I won't even talk about games. In reality they will experience the same kind of shock when hit as a human would. Their bodies are endlessly full of places that, when hit, would stop them sooner or later.

I wasn't trying to argue with you about anything specifically, though.

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@Kaarme

"It's very easy to run out of ammo on your 12.7mm machinegun. Been there. "
Exactly, and how effective do you think that 12.7mm machinegun was after it ran out of ammo? Back on to your original subject of the armor vs 12.7mm ammunition. Looks like that armor was pretty effective against their 12.7mm machineguns. It bled them dry of ammo and forced them to use light antitank missiles.

"I just wanted to comment on it because I often find myself annoyed by how living things made of flesh, blood, and bones are often depicted as so tough monsters in fiction. Like Jurassic Park."
I hear you and I feel your pain, but this is a fictional fantasy setting with magic where even the small flying 'dragons' (wyverns?) grow scales tough enough to shrug off 12.7mm machinegun fire. These guys aren't hunting dinosaurs with anti materiel rifles

 

[Kaarme]

@SlurpNoodle Yeah. This is a pretty weird mix of trying to be realistic and then having flying tanks like the dragons.

 

[Ennchan]

I'm actually impressed that after all that carnage, the monsters still aren't scared of taking on the JSDF. You'd think, with their humanoid builds and the fact that they seem to be capable of language, that what's left of the survivors won't run back to their tribal clans to tell them the horror of taking on the JSDF, therefore discouraging more participants for the empire to hire.

 

[schuyguy]

@SlurpNoodle

I don't see what this has to do with McCarthy or antifa. If McCarthy were convinced some major author were promoting communism through their stories, he would haul him before HUAC and use the threat of imprisonment to get him to reveal his supposed comrades, and also try his best to end the author's career. Did I say I wanted this guy to stop writing, or that he should suffer legal penalties for his views? No.

I don't actually know if antifa goes after authors they consider to be promoting fascism; maybe they do. But they're a bunch of clowns, so all they'd do is complain on twitter, demanding a boycott, or maybe send a mean message or two. Perhaps some brave soul would show up to a book-signing and pour a milkshake on the author, ruining his day, and probably his shirt. All of them are either too stupid to realize that their actions actually hurt their cause, or too self-righteous to care. In any case, you won't see me sending mean messages to the author calling him Hitler or trying to beat him up.

I know why you compared me to "antifa" and "McCarthy", but that's an empty rhetorical devices and has nothing to do with this discussion. I'm just trying to analyze the story that I am reading. And in this case, one major meaning is obvious. The author has constructed a world where every argument of the Japanese far-right is legitimate and based in fact. The SDF is good. Their critics are bad. Militarists are righteous and selfless. Pacifists are cowardly and venal. Japan would be stronger if the SDF were unhindered by the cowardly, self-serving politicians and lying journalists who deceive the public.

That's not the only thing going on in this story. Like I said, I find the rest of it interesting enough to keep reading it. But this would be a better story if the author weren't so obvious in promoting his political agenda, or at least wasted fewer pages beating on caricatures of his own private bugbears. The problem isn't that it promotes militarism or the Japanese far-right, the problem is that it lacks nuance.

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@Kaarme
"Yeah. This is a pretty weird mix of trying to be realistic and then having flying tanks like the dragons."

It wouldn't be fantasy without dragons and elves and swords and sorcery.
Seriously, writing fiction with elements of realism and fantasy is tough, especially maintaining some level of internal consistency. You can easily write yourself into a corner. I feel the mangaka did a really good job adapting the original WN/LN story into a visual format. The old phrase of "a picture is worth a thousand words" applies to this mangaka. The level of detail and things going on in each frame is almost excessive, and not just for people familiar with military details.

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@schuyguy
"I don't see what this has to do with McCarthy or antifa"
Same tactics, figuratively tar and feather your opponents using appeals to moral/ethical reasoning. You could apply it just as well to the SJW crowd. I could have chosen different groups but "McCarthyesque" and "antifa" were what sprang to mind immediately.

"I don't actually know if antifa goes after authors they consider to be promoting fascism; maybe they do. But they're a bunch of clowns,"
Yes, agreed, they are a bunch of clowns, that's why their political power is waning. However, they're also a bunch of hypocrits, resorting to violence and intimidation in addition to appealing to moral/ethical authority which tends to backfire on them, because that's the same tactics fascists use.

"or at least wasted fewer pages beating on caricatures of his own private bugbears"
See, I knew you caught that. You and I both realize that they are caricatures, very obvious caricatures. I'm assuming you didn't mention it before because it weakens your argument. The "political far right" in Japan is different from the label applied to the western socio-political movement of the same name.

"But this would be a better story if the author weren't so obvious in promoting his political agenda,"
There we go, the crux of your argument you took pains to conceal. Your complaint is that the author doesn't write with your preferred specific flavor of socio-political agenda, so he is deserving of your scorn. To me, your argument sounds like a complaint that the mangaka is not catering to your specific tastes. I see the politically right-leaning sentiments of this story, but I have no problem with discussing political positions that do not match my own, as long as they are not extremist views.

Just to confirm, do you realize that this manga is based on a WN which was eventually serialized into a LN? It's been over for just about a decade (since 2009). The target market was not the general public. The way it was written and learning the origins of the original story, it sounds like a story written by a JSDF serviceperson (possibly ex-JSDF) for other otaku in the JSDF. A story to relieve the boredom of JSDF service and to give it meaning. It's no different from any of the other Japanese fantasy stories out there. What was unexpected was how this story blew up outside of it's intended audience. There has even been speculation that some of the financial backing came from the government. It's certainly helped JSDF recruitment, which hasn't been doing well in the current millenia.

Demanding the mangaka focus less on "his political agenda" is asking the mangaka to change the story, to edit and censor a work that s/he is working on. The story has already been written. The mangaka is only adapting it to a graphical format. The anime got rid of a lot of the political back story and prettified the characters and the situation quite a bit, perhaps that is more to your tastes if you can stomach the "all the JSDF are inherently good" trope.

 

[saladofstones]

I'd be more accepting of the author's political beliefs if he was capable of good writing. The shit with the Chinese/Russian/US Special forces was comical and the artist is incapable of conflict beyond "Look at how wrong the other side is!"

 

[SlurpNoodle]

@saladofstones
"I'd be more accepting of the author's political beliefs if he was capable of good writing. The shit with the Chinese/Russian/US Special forces was comical and the artist is incapable of conflict beyond "Look at how wrong the other side is!""

Are you talking about the onsen battle? I had to suspend my belief a bit there. They didn't seem very "special forces". I can't speak for the Chinese or Russians, but the idea of the US military running a covert ops mission in an CLOSELY ALLIED country, especially a snatch of VERY IMPORTANT, VERY PUBLICIZED, FOREIGN DIGNITARIES sounds utterly ridiculous, just because of the likelihood of political blowback. But I also realize I'm being nitpicky. Shakespeare, this isn't. What you may be forgetting is that this IS a comic. There are characters here at the level of superheroes. I will take the author's depiction of those chapters as an opportunity to show Rory off as a badass, blood-thirsty demigoddess who don't care about bullets. I still don't get what you mean by the "Look at how wrong the other side is!" comment though. Whatever political commentary I may have had before that fight got washed away by all the bloodshed. The JSDF SF unit didn't even need to be there. What I got from that arc is that everybody going against Rory was wrong, because they ended up dead.

 

[Dr_siegbert_dirk]

Genres: Isekai, fantasy, romance...
Themes: Harem, Magic, Monster Girls, Supernatural...

...yet you people still argue about some nonsense politics anyway

 

[cullinaire]

@Dr_siegbert_dirk to paraphrase Rambo, "...arguing about nonsense on the internet is as easy as breathing"

 

[Serenata]

@Ennchan they're made stupid on purpose just to show them being destroyed by guns of the special forces I think, because just as you said, even the soldiers should've been discouraged after an army was wiped out in a single night ...this has happened multiple times all around the empire, and now they've lost ALL the monsters but they're happy just because they managed to get a single hidden monster? that at best could kill like 3 or 5 soldiers...And these are humans being this stupid, so is not really a surprise that the monster are even more stupid in this world, or more like, they sense of survival was removed and they just jump to the flame like mindless zombies knowing very well they had no chance.

Anyway I'm a little tired of the empire pity struggles to keep fighting, they are not a real treat, always using dirty tactics for small accomplishments and they're all rotten... and on top of that, the soldiers are surrounded by people who are a pest all the time... Is getting hard to enjoy this massacre that jumps from one battle to another but without end in sight.