Genjitsushugi Yuusha no Oukoku Saikenki - Ch. 60 - The Arrival of the Saint (2)

[dmbase]

Which dictionary are you using?
Simple Google search similar but significantly different results. (Google "define harem")
1. Is the same
2. Is very different "the women occupying a harem; the wives (or concubines) of a polygamous man." (Says nothing about mothers, sisters, entertainers or servants)
3. a group of female animals sharing a single mate.
While, technically, the third definition from wherever you got it from does drive my point, the second definition is explicitly different. Your source allows for platonic relationships, Google's (or, more accurately, Oxford's) doesn't... And, that, my friend,is exactly the problem.
"Reverse harem" isn't a problem (by definition) as it is (generally) one woman in a romantic relationship with a group of men. The problem is when the relationship of a so-called "harem" is in no way romantic.

But, by all means, cite your source so we can critique the dictionary you are using. Mine, again, is a Google function which pulls results from the Oxford English Dictionary.

Not that it really matters, but I used the Collins Dictionary, and I pulled it straight from the source, not Google.

Typically, when a person has to resort to attacking the validity of the source, and not the meat of the topic, that's a good indication that you have no footing. Rather than refute the fact that a reputable dictionary completely invalidates your opinion, you instead choose to cast aspersions towards said dictionary.

You are welcome to your opinions, but generally most people, and dictionaries, consider a harem to male leaning.

One thing I am confused about though. You seem to accept the fact that a "reverse harem" is generally one woman in a romantic relationship with a group of men. Why do you have a problem with the opposite being true? Also, in the case of manga and other literature, harem is not defined in such a firm manner. It's generally used when there is even a hit of romance between a male character and several females, often in stories where perhaps the only requited love is between the male and a single female, and other side characters express interest, but is not considered a true romantic partner. It does not necessarily mean the MC will be banging multiple women at the same time, just the implication that they possibly could.

 

[YamiRi]

Spoiler

in reality June will be the next one to get pregnant, given that the other girls will have sex with souma only after marriage

Spoiler: WN

oh you are right! I forgot that they want to make sure Liscia is the one that get pregnant first so the rest can only do it after marriage.

 

[Aricitic]

One thing I am confused about though. You seem to accept the fact that a "reverse harem" is generally one woman in a romantic relationship with a group of men. Why do you have a problem with the opposite being true? Also, in the case of manga and other literature, harem is not defined in such a firm manner. It's generally used when there is even a hit of romance between a male character and several females, often in stories where perhaps the only requited love is between the male and a single female, and other side characters express interest, but is not considered a true romantic partner. It does not necessarily mean the MC will be banging multiple women at the same time, just the implication that they possibly could.

Because my problem is exactly that. A lot of so called harem manga are not about one male in a "romantic" relationship with multiple females. Therefore: "You seem to accept the fact that a "reverse harem" is generally one woman in a romantic relationship with a group of men. Why do you have a problem with the opposite being true?" becomes an invalid statement.
Additionally a "romantic relationship" isn't simply "I'm interested" (or, worse, "potentially interested") but actually actively in a relationship. One could actually argue that a male being in multiple romantic relationships with multiple females who don't actually know about one another is still a harem. I would be "ok" with this argument for the most part, but would prefer A: the relationship between known amongst all participants, and B: it be a physical relationship. However neither of these are specifically required (a romantic relationship that "will become physical" is still one that is "not physical").
Really, my problem is with everything after "Why do you have a problem with the opposite being true?" and it's because the relationship between the male and females isn't romantic, but one of friends (at best, or of family as another person commented). If it's a group of "friends" then the classification of "harem" loses all meaning because it then contains literally any group that contains "at least" one male and "at least" more than one female. Effectively a group of two married couples going on a double date (or simply "hanging out") would fall under this category.


Finally, I wasn't trying to be offensive nor combative, the sole reason that I called your source into question is merely because you didn't cite something that should be fairly easy to cite (i.e. a link to the website, etc) which is often done by people who are simply stringing together a group of words that "appear to" prove their point, but if it can't be verified be a third party is effectively meaningless. I didn't want to just accuse you of doing this (that would be unfair) so I requested the source.
Since we are on the topic, ... Well, I was about to link Oxford's own page on the word, but it requires a subscription, which I have no need for and see no reason for you (nor anyone else reading this, for that matter) to pay for for the purpose of this argument. At the top of the Google function of "define [word]" they claim it's from the Oxford Dictionary. I will have to follow that assumption unless someone who has a subscription can screenshot it to prove this incorrect.

EDIT: Ok, I found a way around requiring a subscription. Oxford "Learner's Dictionaries" doesn't, but is still Oxford's Dictionary. Additionally Collins Dictionary includes both the American meaning and the British meaning. The Cambridge Dictionary. Dictionary.com provides the same information you did. And Merriam-Webster Dictionary includes "a group of women 'associated' with one man." One might ask why I looked it up with various different dictionaries (other than for the 'flat' comparison) and that's because there is a notable difference between "American" English and "British" English (Also called "Common Wealth" English). Again, why is this important? Two reasons: distribution (which, and how many countries, use which), and the second one I can find literally no documented reference to, but based upon the timestamps from the forums (among other circumstantial evidence) it is most likely that it originates from Europe (i.e. British English). I spent somewhere in the upper tens of minutes trying to find an official statement to confirm this (I know there are servers in the US, but the origin appears to be Europe), but I could not. I could easily be wrong, but the time stamps strictly do not even remotely match the US (Eastern, Central, Mountain or Pacific - Or Alaska/Hawaii). I'm in Central and it's literally multiple hours difference for me. Additionally, and I had to look this up, while some countries automatically use the 24-hour ("military") time format, the UK doesn't "automatically" do so, nor (like some countries) do they use the "year/month/day" format. The reason I looked this up is because if they did and either this website did not; or if they did not, and this website did, it would irrefutably prove me wrong (which, I would be ok with). Also, in the event anyone is actually still reading this, if anyone knows how to change the timezone for timestamps on Mangadex (forums), please, for my sanity, tell me...
So, the entire reason I even brought this up is because your first reply states: "American English" before providing the definition. That's all well and good, except most countries that speak English don't use "American" English (see "distribution" above). All of the dictionaries I used had the origin of the word: "the separate part of [...] house where the women live." All of the dictionaries had some equivalent of "women or wives [...] man" or the non-human animal equivalent of that statement. Only Merriam-Webster, Dictionary.com and Collens (which was specifically under "American" English) mentioned multiple women and one man without either explicitly citing the first definition or those women being romantically tied to that man. And, again, that's my point: one male with multiple females tied to him romantically == harem (or the part of a building housing women), anything else isn't a harem.

 

[ultrabread]

bro literally used post nut clarity to plan a coup

 

[rinzly]

i'm guessing he's gonna use him to discredit the church but honestly stupid move, should have just put down a firm NO and stopped any church involvement and threatened to join another church if they keep pushing or interfere/incite the populace against him.

Actually, a complete rejection would be a stupid move.

They said it in no uncertain times that if Souma doesn't play ball, they'll just "wait" for another opportunity and try again, a.k.a, "We will foment a lot of trouble for you, cause an uprising and have your own people oust you. Whoever replaces you will then be given the same offer, with full cognizance of what happened to their predecessor when he turned us down."

Given the church's near global reach, it wouldn't be difficult to destabilize Friedonia. One way to do this, for example, is to create a rift between humans and other races. For instance, the emergence of a human supremacist cell that specifically targets and terrorizes other races, while also covertly supporting an anti-human cell that goes after humans in retaliation for the former's attacks. The church, meanwhile, will then milk this by pushing propaganda or spreading rumors that the heinous acts are actually state-sponsored repressions of those who don't accept Souma's rule, for example. As the two groups keep going at it, the church can then position itself as a stabilizing influence and a sanctuary, of sorts, for the persecuted. Of course, any relief or aid is given to those who renounce other faiths or atheism and take up Lunarianism.

Meanwhile, as talented as Souma is, once fear, paranoia and hysteria settle in, a deep mistrust develops fueled by the well-executed, well-resourced and well-managed subversive ops such as mass killings, sabotage (remember, Friedonia is still undergoing reforms) to incitements to riots and even spilling of state secrets (plenty of those), etc. Given such crises, it will be very hard to lead, command sufficient respect or loyalty among key personnel, let alone restore order and reassure the public. At least not without resorting to force, which can easily backfire... playing right into the church's hands.

Long rambling aside... degrading the church's influence was the far better option here, and very much like Souma.

 

[Hyqa]

Imagine being an office worker tasked by your king to do bureaucratic work, so you go and sit down on one of the couches to start working only to feel a strange dampness

and then you realize you're sitting where your boss had been fucking his wife raw

No worries, carla and serina cleaned everything up in the morning

 

[Khazar123]

Not that it really matters, but I used the Collins Dictionary, and I pulled it straight from the source, not Google.

Typically, when a person has to resort to attacking the validity of the source, and not the meat of the topic, that's a good indication that you have no footing. Rather than refute the fact that a reputable dictionary completely invalidates your opinion, you instead choose to cast aspersions towards said dictionary.

You are welcome to your opinions, but generally most people, and dictionaries, consider a harem to male leaning.

One thing I am confused about though. You seem to accept the fact that a "reverse harem" is generally one woman in a romantic relationship with a group of men. Why do you have a problem with the opposite being true? Also, in the case of manga and other literature, harem is not defined in such a firm manner. It's generally used when there is even a hit of romance between a male character and several females, often in stories where perhaps the only requited love is between the male and a single female, and other side characters express interest, but is not considered a true romantic partner. It does not necessarily mean the MC will be banging multiple women at the same time, just the implication that they possibly could.

Oh wow look at that, a friend that totally missed the point of a discussion(until the very last paragraph, where they finally talk about the actual discussion point) and gets hit by a fitting reaction for it, goes stalking on my comments to post a reaction back...

What a stable human being.

@Aricitic
P.S. to add to the discussion and summarize it a little: Harem as a story tag/descriptor has been washed so thin, that it basically only means 1 main gender with lots of secondary gender around.(in Yuri/Yaoi stories probably not even that, it's just a bunch of people... lol)
When it actually used to mean that there was some mutual feelings on all sides, with maybe indecisiviness from the people involved.

Now feelings and the type of relationship don't matter, cause internet weirdos.

 

[dmbase]

Oh wow look at that, a friend that totally missed the point of a discussion(until the very last paragraph, where they finally talk about the actual discussion point) and gets hit by a fitting reaction for it, goes stalking on my comments to post a reaction back...

What a stable human being.

@Aricitic
P.S. to add to the discussion and summarize it a little: Harem as a story tag/descriptor has been washed so thin, that it basically only means 1 main gender with lots of secondary gender around.(in Yuri/Yaoi stories probably not even that, it's just a bunch of people... lol)
When it actually used to mean that there was some mutual feelings on all sides, with maybe indecisiviness from the people involved.

Now feelings and the type of relationship don't matter, cause internet weirdos.

Just because you think it's a fitting reaction doesn't make it so. Don't insult someone and not expect them to return the favor.

 

[Knighto]

so anime ended just before we get the segs, goddammit you guys hahaha

 

[Giga]

i'm guessing he's gonna use him to discredit the church but honestly stupid move, should have just put down a firm NO and stopped any church involvement and threatened to join another church if they keep pushing or interfere/incite the populace against him.

Exactly what I thought. In the end, it seems the flat chest seduced Souma after all. What she was sent there for was surely to get Souma to be Lunaria's Saint King, sure, but also to get Friedonia to take Lunaria as its state religion--to have Lunaria's tendrils of influence permeate Friedonia the same way it has the Gran Chaos Empire, no doubt for exactly the same reason: to create a sleeper cell writ large in Friedonia as well. Given the last page, Souma and his strategist obviously have some sort of subterfuge planned and already executed, but--ultimately--Souma still gave that religious order what it wanted by his word, even if only in the most superficial sense. And indeed, a certain someone wanted to be in position to make use of that:

I was actually planning to take that role.

Bet you were, saintboard. The saint would no doubt be trained in the ability to activate the Lunarian believers, being as devout an adherent as she is; Souji Lester is probably so negligent he's nearly an apostate, and thus wouldn't be effective by comparison--certainly not the preferred finger on the Lunarian trigger. The saint said that if Lester does not follow the order and report to Friedonia, she'd install herself instead. Good and well, but Lester already needed protection--what if the Lunarian order really wants the holy panel in? The Black Cats would have to ensure Lester is not assassinated, then, because that'd be a likely next step.

To reiterate, Souma's mistake was giving sanctimonious religious zealots (much more than an) an inch in the way of an inroad into Friedonia's power structure. Of course, it could go any way the author chooses, but Souma seems to have paved the way to give Friedonia the same weakness the Gran Chaos Empire has that the Lunarian order was hoping to tempt him with in the first place.