Gokufuri Kyohi Shite Tesaguri Start! Tokka Shinai Healer, Nakama to Wakarete Tabi ni Deru - Ch. 33

[Intrigbagarn]

But that's not what he was saying. He is saying you should take a few scratches or small injuries. The kind of armour you're talking about is full plate armour, which means you won't take any damage unless it's a very strong hit or something that hits a weak point, and those you'd try to avoid.

The logic he's using doesn't make sense in any way that's been shown in the manga so far. He's basically saying you'll open yourself up to getting hurt if you don't open yourself to getting hurt. The only way that would make sense would be if you're fighting a low level creature that can't hurt you badly, as well as a stronger creature that can, at the same time. But that situation hasn't occurred, and wasn't something he trained for.

But they do get hurt. Ever taken a blow with a helmet on? It still hurts you. It is just not anything life threatening or even a wound that would weaken you. As you said

few scratches or small injuries

A broken lip. Bump in the head. A scratch on the arm. It's nothing. But in unarmored combat you dont just get small injuries or scratches, it really is 1hitKO unless you are just graced. So martial arts focused on unarmored combat takes that into account.
The dwarf's logic is more like "You will open yourself up to getting the dead if you dont open yourself up to getting a small injury".

 

[AnotherDuck]

But they do get hurt

Do you try to avoid them? Is it better to just tank them? As in, against an opponent that can do at most that much, rather than one that can severely hurt you.

 

[Intrigbagarn]

Do you try to avoid them? Is it better to just tank them? As in, against an opponent that can do at most that much, rather than one that can severely hurt you.

How i understand it in context of the story is that the MC has some "real world" training in a Yari martial arts that focuses on one touch win/1hitko. Think modern fencing rules. The dwarf noticed that saying something in the line of "your style seem to be for some 1 hit dead combat". Then he goes on to explain that in real combat in this world you first have some sort of innate lowgrade protection and that in real combat you have weigh a few scratches vs victory (being alive at the end).

 

[AnotherDuck]

Think modern fencing rules.

This is an aside, but modern fencing rules tend to be far more suicidal from the perspective a real combat scenario. Many of the styles don't punish doubles, and encourage you to hit first and don't care if you're hit a millisecond later. That style could work if the enemy can't hurt you significantly, but you can kill them.

Then he goes on to explain that in real combat in this world you first have some sort of innate lowgrade protection and that in real combat you have weigh a few scratches vs victory (being alive at the end).

But at the same time he never gave any examples of not winning. Just about the "efficiency" of it. The tradeoff was winning slightly slower and not getting hurt at all vs winning faster and getting a little hurt.

 

[Intrigbagarn]

This is an aside, but modern fencing rules tend to be far more suicidal from the perspective a real combat scenario. Many of the styles don't punish doubles, and encourage you to hit first and don't care if you're hit a millisecond later. That style could work if the enemy can't hurt you significantly, but you can kill them.

Yea that was just an example from the top of my head of a well known combat sport with 1 hit rule. The 1 hit rule was the point not the martial art itself.

But at the same time he never gave any examples of not winning. Just about the "efficiency" of it. The tradeoff was winning slightly slower and not getting hurt at all vs winning faster and getting a little hurt.

In real combat you get bumrushed to hell if you only try to dodge hits(MMA). Tank the hits you can tank, block the hits you cant tank, parry the hits you cant block, dodge the hits you cant parry.
I think something like this was the generall point and message the dwarf was trying to teach. Maybe it was poorly explained by the author or the translation from japanese made the point more diffused i don't know. Maybe its both?

 

[AnotherDuck]

Yea that was just an example from the top of my head of a well known combat sport with 1 hit rule. The 1 hit rule was the point not the martial art itself.

I understand. I was talking about how many different weapon-related combat sports count scores. Olympic fencing, with their electronic extremely exact scoring system, is one of the most egregious, but even in some sports that try to avoid it, it's still there, like in HEMA (in various amounts, depending on what competition and year you're talking about).

I think something like this was the generall point and message the dwarf was trying to teach. Maybe it was poorly explained by the author or the translation from japanese made the point more diffused i don't know. Maybe its both?

That's the vibe I'm getting. There was no mention of hits you can't tank, nor was there any talk about prioritizing stronger attacks, since it was only about single attacks. A brief mention about treating all attacks equally is the closest, but that doesn't suffice.

 

[Grikath]

This is an aside, but modern fencing rules tend to be far more suicidal from the perspective a real combat scenario. Many of the styles don't punish doubles, and encourage you to hit first and don't care if you're hit a millisecond later.

The medieval fencing club I'm part of is very particular about doubles. They're not counted as points. Do them too often, and you get penalised, since you're obviously not defending properly.

We also count an after-strike, where the "loser" will get to finish his counterstrike/movement and which must be guarded against, lest you still lose a point yourself if it connects..
Which makes suicidal lunges... well... inadviseable.

Both are specifically meant to get as close to true Blosfechten as possible.
In both cases both combatants would have been seriously injured or dead..

 

[kikix12]

There's a significant piece of logic missing from the discussion here, that makes the story different than real life with armor.

In real life, putting on armor does not make you superior to your opponent. The opponent is still as dangerous (or not) as he was.
In this fictional world, you can be superior to your opponent. If you are so superior that their strike will not do much to you, then in the first place, them being in a position to land that strike is already proof of you doing something bad. Especially when using a spear. And even then, dodging an attack from something that is much weaker/slower than you is also significantly easier than dodging an attack from something that is comparable to you in agility.

This power imbalance is entirely ignored here. The question isn't whether to dodge an attack or tank it. The question is...why even let the other side make that attack in the first place. In any case you are unable to prevent the opponent from attacking, one of two things are happening:

1) They are somewhat weaker, but use a reckless rush attack. In other words, tanking that attack is foolish. Even if the damage is not significant, it will put the enemy in a position THEY want to be, and you in a position you cannot fully control the flow. For example with that fungus...By tanking that charge, you're going to be unbalanced, very close to it and unable to exert full force of attacks at all. But by dodging, they are going to be the ones exposed.
2) They are comparable or stronger than you. At this point, if you don't dodge it won't end up as a mere scratch. If you can, you should dodge. Unless you are desperate and you know that tanking something will open up the opponent for a deadly counterattack, tanking any hits you don't need to tank is just killing yourself slowly. Remember that the fight doesn't end when the opponents are dead. A fight ends when you manage to rest and heal up, because you can get found by more monsters at any moment. Stamina heals much faster than wounds, and likely also faster than mana in case of healers.

Armors are different because they don't have any 'cost' to them. The damage on them doesn't really boggle you down long term, and for weaker attacks, they won't get damaged to begin with. They still won't help you get into a better position to strike though, while making you more prone to punishment if you don't get out of the way of those reckless rushes.

 

[Flanyl]

"Sacrifice the flesh to cut the bone"

Sounds like something that would be told to a WWII kamikaze pilot. Still, outside of propaganda, if it does come from bushido it was probably advice given should you be facing a stronger opponent, not a weaker one. A delay tactic to be used until another plan can be enacted. An example from anime/manga is from Naruto, in his fight with Kabuto when he used the rasengan in battle for the first time. Kabuto tried to stab Naruto with a kunai, but Naruto caught the blade and fist with his right hand while a clone formed the rasengan in his left. Without that ace up his sleeve, Naruto would have died that day unless some other magic McGuffin deus ex machina thing came along and saved him. The principle stays the same in that he sacrificed the use of his right hand as a delay.

 

[NotALewdGuy]

Makasih mas

 

[W1770W]

Thanks for the update !