Guild no Uketsukejou Desu ga, Zangyou wa Iya Nanode Boss wo Solo Toubatsu Shiyou to Omoimasu - Ch. 23 - Personal Principles

[nanimuwu]

What is this bullshit

 

[kiero13]

This is... so anticlimactic...

 

[xylerepiques]

This manga is so cliched and chapter 23 really sent it home. No more of this I'm dropping it

 

[Hatyna]

Happy for the mangaka that this is getting an anime but... please fix up the writing before release...

 

[isoycrazy]

Problem is the flow of these two chapters. (Actually three. Chapter 21 also had her struggling.)
She struggles against an even opponent. She overwhelms a clearly inferior opponent.
There is no transition aside from that last panel in the previous chapter that shows her activating her skill.

Nothing in the story has shown her being a slow-starter. Nothing about her skill needing activation conditions or build-up.
The whole previous chapter is her struggling against what is actually a much inferior opponent. So it's just there to build false tension. Some mangas give "build-up" abilities to their characters so they can struggle and there is tension as the character in question attempts to stay alive long enough for his skill to get ready. But nothing hints that it's the case here. She just got beaten up for no reason, as she's never been shown to be the type to enjoy fights either... in fact she's been established as the exact opposite. Someone who hates fighting, but does it reluctantly to reduce her overtime work and does it as quickly as possible because this too is overtime.

So the whole previous two chapters are a complete contradiction to either every chapter that preceded them or the one that followed them.

Going from chapter 20 straight to chapter 23 would actually work better in terms of consistency. The tension already existed in the form of "will she be on time to save Mr Tank?". Adding the two chapters of "even fight" sequence breaks the flow for cheap additional tension that prove completely artificial in chapter 23.

Or go the opposite direction and make Mr Demon God a true opponent on equal grounds. Show that there are actual threats out there that even the one-punch receptionist struggles with. Other than overtime, that is.

(Edit: then again, you can also establish that her Divine Skill is a build-up type. This can work, but must be done or at the very least hinted at.)

I didn't mean drawn out as a time of use until the next power is achieved. I meant that she herself tapped more power because of a change in mindset.
It's like, her focus to save people, her noble focus allows her to draw on more of this divine power. At the start, she was powerful yes, but using it selfishly. She fought for her own business and not others. Helping them was incidental to her taking out dungeon bosses. Here, she wants to protect her friend, to protect the others from the demon. That change in mindset allows her to unknowingly draw out more power.

It's like a Sword of the Cross in the Dresden Files. A normal person can swing it about, but it takes a person in the right mind and intentto draw out its full power. The heroine is moving in that direction.

 

[Wyrm]

I didn't mean drawn out as a time of use until the next power is achieved. I meant that she herself tapped more power because of a change in mindset.
It's like, her focus to save people, her noble focus allows her to draw on more of this divine power. At the start, she was powerful yes, but using it selfishly. She fought for her own business and not others. Helping them was incidental to her taking out dungeon bosses. Here, she wants to protect her friend, to protect the others from the demon. That change in mindset allows her to unknowingly draw out more power.

It's like a Sword of the Cross in the Dresden Files. A normal person can swing it about, but it takes a person in the right mind and intentto draw out its full power. The heroine is moving in that direction.

I get what you mean now. Instead of a power build-up during battle, it's a character development over the course of the story that triggered it. Which can work... in other stories.

Here, I still feel they pulled it out of nowhere. Even worse, there was precedent of her hammer activating to some extent when she was on a completely different mindset. Like venting on the corpse of an already dead dragon while rambling about overtime. (One panel on Chapter 1, page 40.) Even her getting the divine skill was because of her frustration about overtime work. (Flashback in chapter 11.) Nothing points out to this skill growing up by the power of friendship or whatever. If that's what the author wants it to be, it needs to be hinted at beforehand or confirmed afterwards. Anything else is a random Deux Ex that people will rationalize with headcanon. Like you're doing here.

(Edit: I'd add that it would have worked perfectly if she initially got her hammer from the traumatic experience of losing her mentor figure in the other flashback. Being in a similar situation of being on the verge of losing someone else would have been the logical trigger for a power-up. But it's all setup backwards.)

 

[Wyrm]

As I was reading back on the story, I realized something.
A lot of the MC's overtime work is her own fault.

A lot of the normal overtime work to begin with is mostly her letting the other employees leave on time and accepting all their leftover work. Her deal with the guild master won't help if she continues with this mindset.
And the Chalk Tower quest and dungeon started because she broke a relic just to make a point, revealing the "hidden quest" and the new dungeon.

She can't win against overtime when she basically inflicts it on herself.

 

[W1770W]

Thanks for the chapter

 

[ForTheJerusalem]

Oh no, not the "I'M JUST THE WEAKEST DEMON GOD!!!"

 

[Rex_Nichts]

So you mean to tell me that an entire civilization didn't figure out the hidden power of their technology during a war, a WAR, with the demon gods? But some random girl from bumblefuck nowhere could within hours?

 

[pab101]

Thanks for the chapter

 

[Grikath]

She seems fairly bad at fighting overtime, though. She keeps losing to it.

"It's a process." ......

 

[AnotherDuck]

If that's what the author wants it to be, it needs to be hinted at beforehand or confirmed afterwards. Anything else is a random Deux Ex that people will rationalize with headcanon. Like you're doing here.

So why doesn't the same requirements apply to the villain's powerup? You're stomping on one side while giving the other a free pass.

 

[Wyrm]

So why doesn't the same requirements apply to the villain's powerup? You're stomping on one side while giving the other a free pass.

There are reasons for this double standards. First, a villain generally has a short lifespan in the story. So you might not want to spend a whole chapter setting him up completely. Second, the viewpoint of the reader is generally that of the protagonist (which is most of the time the MC). So we can discover power-ups as the protagonist discovers them and be surprised in the same way as the protagonist.
Then again, if he's going to have a long term existence in the story, he will also need some rules and setup. Not as complete as the MC still, but something to understand roughly how much of a threat he is.

The point is, you need to understand the long-term impact of the main character's power to understand the stakes. Same for any other long-term character in the story.
If your MC has no rule, there is no stakes because literally anything goes.
For example, she might encounter an enemy that is invulnerable to blunt damage, so her hammer turns into a sword.
Or the enemy is invulnerable to all physical attacks, so her hammer shoots lasers now.
Or the enemy is immune to all attacks from this world, so the hammer summons an alien. Complete with a spaceship.
Does any of this seem off?

• If so, you might start to understand why the MC needs rules. Preferably established before they come into play.
• If not, you expect nothing and you just want a random power fantasy without proper setup and payoff. I don't mind that you do, but I have different standards.

 

[AnotherDuck]

First, a villain generally has a short lifespan in the story.

This means that the only reason why a villain would power up in the first place is to show off that the hero can also do that to keep up. It means it's the entire point to it, and it's not that the author wrote herself into a corner and had to deus-ex-machina the hero out of it.

Second, the viewpoint of the reader is generally that of the protagonist. So we can discover power-ups as the protagonist discovers them and be surprised in the same way as the protagonist.

And then when readers are surprised they complain about ass pulls because they didn't see it coming. Source: comments here.

But honestly, that's the point I don't really get. The very nature of the villain getting a power up shows that the hero will also get one. That's not a surprise. And sure, I'd still summarise it with "magic", but there are still enough explanations for it to not be a deus ex machina.

Does any of this seem off?

I mean, you're using extreme examples there that are obviously constructed to be off. Then again, I can think of at least one manga where it's true. First his sword started to level up from killing enemies. Nothing too big. Then it turned into a bow. Then into a gun. Then into a girl. Then into a motorbike. That manga's weird.

 

[Wyrm]

tl;dr I mostly repeat or develop the same point with more examples to make it across. Because my point still stands.
You are free to disagree, but you should at least understand why me, and apparently several others, think that the ending was cheap.

It means it's the entire point to it, and it's not that the author wrote herself into a corner and had to deus-ex-machina the hero out of it.

Yes, it is. A good author would have established the possibility of a power-up. (I'm discussing this in details below.)
Not establishing it is the very definition of a Deux Ex.

And then when readers are surprised they complain about ass pulls because they didn't see it coming. Source: comments here.

They don't complain about the villain getting new power-ups.
First because the power-ups have been established before the MC shows up. That was the whole point of the fight against the tank's party. This was done remarkably well in comparison to the MC's power-up. We knew the fight wouldn't end without the MC, so everything before she arrives is setup, not resolution.
Second, the power-ups he did pull were consistent with the nature of his character, which is basically a collector of magic weapons... and their respective abilities. The only real "power-up" is the moment he introduces other weapons than the one he started with.
Third, most of the comments complain about one of two things. Neither is the villain getting power-ups but 1. the MC getting this random power-up out of nowhere and 2. the anticlimactic nature of this ending. Which is because the MC just pulled a random power-up out of nowhere. It's not surprise, it's just disappointment. And the MC needs to be established for the reasons I mentioned before and the ones I'll develop below.
And fourth, because the author took two chapters to create the illusion of an even fight and it was a complete lie. Breaking the mirror's power has precedent, so it works fine. Her one-sided beatdown of the "demon god" does not, because it was established as an even fight. I think I mentioned it before, but this would work ten times better without chapters 21 and 22. Remove them completely and this becomes good, because the tension is removed from the artificial "can she win against the demon?" back to "can she arrive before Tank dies?", where it was and was working pretty well.

But honestly, that's the point I don't really get. The very nature of the villain getting a power up shows that the hero will also get one. That's not a surprise. And sure, I'd still summarise it with "magic", but there are still enough explanations for it to not be a deus ex machina.

Yes. That's the common workflow. (Not an absolute rule, but it's a well-known one which works pretty often.)
But once again, the possibilities have to be established beforehand, not pulled out of nowhere. Otherwise, no stake, no tension... and an anticlimactic end to the fight.
If the character can use fire magic to light a torch, it's logical that he can power-up during a fight into setting his enemy on fire. It's not logical to power-up into conjuring a bubble of water around their opponent's head to drown them. Unless you established that he has untapped potential in other elements. Or you established that some rare magicians can awaken a second element. Many mangas do this kind of things when creating their world background. But if this kind of awakening happens after establishing that useable elements are set at birth without a hint that the MC is different in any way (reincarnation, unidentified element, rare title), then this awakening becomes a Deux Ex.

I mean, you're using extreme examples there that are obviously constructed to be off. Then again, I can think of at least one manga where it's true. First his sword started to level up from killing enemies. Nothing too big. Then it turned into a bow. Then into a gun. Then into a girl. Then into a motorbike. That manga's weird.

I think I know that manga. (Can remember the name, but tell me if what I say about it is wrong.)
If that's the one I think about, these upgrades were introduced before the fights where they become important.
These examples are not all that off by themselves. They are examples I took from other mangas.
And my point is not how ridiculous these things are by themselves, but how they are used without being introduced.
But let's continue.

In this example, the ability to change to a bow establishes that it's a shapeshifting weapon... and it doesn't come out of nowhere just as the MC needs a ranged weapon. From this point, we know that it will gain new forms as it levels up. Some shapes feels anachronistic (and even redundant), but it's not as outlandish as a new whole new feature being introduced mid-combat. When in a fight, the MC needs to use only the shape that were established. If they are insufficient as they are, he needs creativity or support. Not new random powers out of nowhere.

What I talked about was features introduced mid-fight, just as they are needed, without anything establishing even the possibility. I thought it was evident from the context, but apparently I was wrong. Sorry.
So, why does it feel cheap? Simple. As I said, no stake. The MC cannot be written into a corner and there is no tension because we know a new power will be added whenever needed. The point of establishing powers before they are needed is that we know what the character can do, and has to work with. Better than pulling random powers out of thin air (staying civil here), a good writer will push characters to their known limits, then make them creatively use what they already have. A bad writer will escalate a situation to the point where the character has absolutely no way out, so something will happen without an established precedent.

For that matter, precedent doesn't always need to be established by the character themselves. Here, for example, if you want to establish that a character can power up due to "power of friendship" or anything even remotely similar, you can establish it through legends, or though a different character getting such a power up. Anything is better than literally making things up on the spot... and it's not even clear what happened here. We're left trying to justify it ourselves without anything to work with. So we can only do exactly what the author does: pulling explanation out of thin air. (Still keeping civil, but it's tough.)

My own example will be Mash from... Mashle. He has one "power", which is superhuman strength. Granted, he can use it in insane ways, but he never gets new powers. It's just always strength. When backed in a corner, he either manages to power through with perseverance, or uses his body in a slightly ingenuous way (e.g. kicking the air at superspeed to hover). He never suddenly shoots lasers or conjure elements. And we know he trains constantly, so his limits are never clear but we know they exist. He has clearly established powers though their limits are fuzzy. He has clearly established character traits (mostly perseverance and friendliness). And yet, you can be surprised by they way he gets out of some predicaments. (Mostly because it's a full-on magic world, where the laws of physics are... more like guidelines.)

 

[AnotherDuck]

You are free to disagree, but you should at least understand why me, and apparently several others, think that the ending was cheap.

I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying people have a double standard.

The only real "power-up" is the moment he introduces other weapons than the one he started with.

No, he also does the same thing Alina does. He gets more power to use to overwhelm her.

Neither is the villain getting power-ups

Exactly. It's a double standard.

Her one-sided beatdown of the "demon god" does not, because it was established as an even fight.

It also shown that he was shaken when the mirror didn't work, which means she objectively had an easier opponent to fight. That easily explains why she could get behind him and get a clean hit in. Which may have been all she needed in the first place, since that had never been shown. I'm not saying this make is into a good plot, but it's something everyone ignores because it goes contrary to their point.

The rest of what you said is theoretical at best, but doesn't apply to my point. Or the same thing with different words.

 

[Wyrm]

It also shown that he was shaken when the mirror didn't work, ...

Which is chapter 23 so we're already passed the "even fight" stage. This happened because of the difference of power after the power-up. So you basically have it backwards. She doesn't overwhelm him because she surprises him. She surprises him because she overwhelms him. The surprise makes finishing him easier, but the simple fact that she breaks the mirror skill is already caused by the difference in power, which is explicitly said in the chapter. (page 4)
So, breaking the mirror doesn't matter. At this stage, she is so much stronger than him that everything in the previous two chapters is contradicted. She had a few direct hits on his body and they did nothing (at best, one scratch that regenerated instantly). Chapter 23 has her two-shot him (arm then chest), each hit basically disintegrating a body part. After this, he's down, can't regen and gets his core broken as a finisher.

We're back at the problem... Two chapters of "even fight" (demon god even has mostly the upper hand), followed by part of one chapter of her completely overwhelming him thanks to a power-up coming out of nowhere. (She didn't even need the full chapter.) And the conclusion is one of the following:

• She was already stronger than him and just needed to go all out. This is very possible in terms of existing strength, but goes counter to her character. She doesn't want to fight, so she always go all out and finishes as fast as possible. There was no reason for her to act differently, particularly as she had extra-reasons to expedite the fight this time.
• Or she actually got a power-up mid-fight, and that would be a Deux Ex since there was no reason for it. I'm not going to go over all the reasons this is a Deux Ex again. You can read back on my previous comments. And this could have been avoided easily. You might accept it, maybe even like it, but that doesn't change what it is. Several of us here are disappointed because of it.

The rest of what you said is theoretical at best, but doesn't apply to my point. Or the same thing with different words.

I don't get what is "theoretical at best". I'm trying to show what my point is, and I explain it from the facts in this manga and a few comparisons with other mangas.

Also, you neither address nor even acknowledge the main issue: the lack of stake and tension when an author allows himself to just create power-ups on the spot. Is this not a problem in your opinion? Or is there a point where even you would consider it too much?

 

[AnotherDuck]

So you basically have it backwards.

You do you, if it makes you feel better. I don't go interpreting things with the purpose of finding faults, so I'm going to stick with my interpretation.

She had a few direct hits on his body and they did nothing (at best, one scratch that regenerated instantly).

Nothing he wasn't prepared for.

This is very possible in terms of existing strength, but goes counter to her character.

There's a difference between going all-out, and going all-out as if your life depends on it. And mental composure. So no.

I don't get what is "theoretical at best".

It means it's not the problem I'm arguing. Just because I'm arguing one thing doesn't mean I'm arguing everything. I'm not going to start argue something just because you think it's a flaw in the manga if it's something I don't want to argue, especially when it has nothing to do with what I'm actually arguing.

 

[akatsuki_yukito]

define overtime: alina clover