Hagure Idol Jigokuhen - Vol. 8 Ch. 52 - If You Love Me The Strongest

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@Ironclad What? Why?

@ugo7281 No one disputes that Rui is an absolute boomer, but in this case okama is the most universal Japanese insult for gay men. Anyway, otokonoko is not so much a gender thing, basically it is just a man of any sexuality who lives according to a female role model. I'm more interested in how easy it was to get it printed, as it quickly led to a scandal in the US.

@pihip I could say that Japan is very conservative in this regard, but heck, even our holy trinity thinks it is pervert, which is especially funny.
 
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@SuperOniichan What are you basing this on? The term appears in children's media without anyone batting an eye. It seems pretty synonymous with drag queen as a general term for the subculture.
 
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Since no one is talking about them, I liked the references. Since they named a Baki character I wonder if it played out intentionally like a Baki fight, interviewing a bystander after the event and replaying a video.

@lamadre Thanks. It wasn't really an over the shoulder hit as the one Nosaka used. I wonder if that one is actually against sumo rules, since the narration calls it "forbidden".
 
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@Ironclad It all depends on the context. When it comes to an eccentric character, this is a literary word. But to the queer character, especially as offensive, this is an analogue of fag.

@lomez Rui is a fan of Baki, not to mention this Yuri Baki arc, so who knows lol.
 
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reading this manga is the equivalent of watching somebody just teeing off on hornet's nests, like BOOM BOOM BOOM one after another. I love it.
 
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It's actually neat that the author thought to including a passing trans woman in the series.

I mean, realistically, the author's original thought process was almost certainly something like "well, I hear some people are into traps and I want every fetish under the sun to make it into my manga", but to portray a trans woman so positively is definitely highly progressive relative to most of Japanese culture. So good on Takatou-sensei.

And wow, your translation notes really do cover everything. As soon as I saw "crossdresser" I was going to ask if the word you translated was "okama". But then you went and covered that and even explained okama in modern usage....

@SuperOniichan There are self-identified okama in Japan just as there are self-identified drag queens in the US. I don't think there are any self-identified "fags" except for gay dudes that are being sarcastic with their own personal friends. So I feel like calling them a drag queen as an insult would've been more correct than "fag" (but crossdresser seems fine to me).
 
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@Thelilwitch I have no idea if your deliberately misrepresenting me or just didn't understand a thing I said. I don't mind gay people nor trans people otherwise I wouldn't read this type of manga, doh. But hey, pretty pathetic try at low blow, guess I hurt your feelings by criticizing the cult.
 
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@Myorn and @ others.
I specifically translated okama as "fag" on my earlier comment since it's a *very* offensive word in Japanese, from the point of view of LGBTQ+ Japanese people. Just watch Japanese media from early 80s to mid 90s and see how people use the word and just how many times it's used in an offensive way.

Now, how offensive is it though? That's not set in stone since different people view it differently and since Japan tends to be TURBO conservative a lot of people know that it's offensive but not that offensive (example, the okama people in One Piece got introduced in early 2000), for most young people nowadays this term is mostly a no-go though.
Today in TV shows and variety programs in Japan these people are mostly referred to as おネエ (read this as onee, yes, it's the same word as big sister but do not use honorifics with it otherwise it mostly means big sister. In context it should be seen as "miss/lady" as in a young adult female or an adult female.)

Like the word queer, there's in Japan a micro side to it that actually likes the word okama so uses it without a negative connotation but it's so minor it doesn't help the discourse.

There's no difference between drag queens and ostensively gay people in Japan, these people are mostly "used" as comedic relief on Tv shows and are only accepted by society because they are seen as "being weird" in a non provocative way.
They being so present in today's Japanese TV shows actually reinforces that you should not be like them, because they stick out too much.

Unless you're a member of LGBTQ+ in Japan and possibly are Japanese yourself, there is a good chance you're not going to be super knowledgeable when it comes to this world.

In the anglosphere there are several terms to identify different characters in media that overall gravitate to the same topic: crossdresser, trans person (MtF), femme boy (gay men who like to present themselves in a feminine way).

What about in Japan? Just 男の娘 (otokonoko, at being very vague and inclusive you could translate that as "young man who has a feminine aesthetic".)

Japan only having one word which is vague and also a sort of umbrella to include all the subgenre within it causes a lot of confusion in your average anglophone speaker.
Most Japanese people actually never mean to provoke or hurt others when they use whatever word they want, it's part of their culture to not be blunt so here as well Rui probably threw the character in for variety but he's likely not really super knowledgeable on this and just used the word he knew.
 
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@Ironclad Dude, you intentionally want to provoke a conflict?

@ugo7281 @codetaku Well, it's the same with queer or n-word. It is still considered a powerful insult from an outsider, but gay folks and African Americans love to use it. Therefore, I find otokonoko the most appropriate option, especially after Futari Ecchi used it for the same context.
 
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@SuperOniichan I just want to understand your point. You said "okama" is offensive depending on the context. Was this context offensive?
 
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@Thelilwitch
It could be fragile sexuality, or it could be sheer ignorance. Not everybody is fortunate enough to live in places or communities where they're exposed to the LGBTQ+ community and it's not very hard to be afraid of or hate(?) something foreign.
 

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