Just before I reply to all the replies to my post, I have to say I can't wait till inline quoting is easier. Scrolling up and down the page to reply to everyone is pretty tough so if I miss something or fuck something up I'm sorry.
@Teasday
Believe me, it would be lovely if we could just ignore the whole issue. We've been trying hard doing that for a long time. It's just not working so great anymore.
Understandably so, these things aren't exactly cut and dry and if I made it seem like I wasn't understanding of the issue then that wasn't my intention.
From the way you're talking, I do have to wonder where you would draw the line for the extra content. Why is/isn't removing ads, for example, unacceptable censorship? Should people be able to insert unrelated image dumps to otherwise one-page chapters because it's part of the work?
So I'm not entirely sure of the point you're trying to make here? Is it that you're construing that my initial defense of expression in credit pages is equivalent to posting a single page with an ad or some such? I don't think anyone is making the argument that you can just post total garbage, clearly ignoring the purpose of scanlation in general. Like I sad, I'm really not sure what you're trying to ask so I don't exactly know how to respond.
@plykiya
Our announcement on reddit received well over 700 upvotes. Obviously there are no upvotes here so people reading the thread and people who agree are less likely to reply, but a majority of people do agree with the changes. Lack of upvotes is an intentional decision to avoid an echochamber. Doesn't mean there aren't people who disagree with it, but we've answered them.
Right on, I guess there are metrics that I was unaware of. I just don't think that's indicative of any real consensus on the issue, or is a dismissal of those who would have a dissenting opinion, unless mob rule is the end-game of this thread, in which case I'd prefer what I said earlier: That this is a hard and fast decision and the admin/mod team won't be swayed. In all fairness reddit will upvote anything. It's true you've answered the posts disagreeing, so here we are, continuing the discussion. Like I said, if this is a closed case, then make it so.
@DLRevan
It's equally deluded to think the vast majority are against it.
Never claimed it was so, don't strawman me.
The vast majority just want to read manga. They are not here to read political commentary. They barely care what is on the credits page.
Of course, I've never claimed otherwise. In fact that is my position exactly. But that's the point of the block function or being mature enough to ignore these pages: just read the manga.
With that being said, MD is certainly not the place for such things and I think it's generous at all that you can discuss such things at all in the general forums. It's not about censorship. It's honestly about, why the heck are you even doing this here. It's manga. We're here to read manga. We're here to maybe discuss manga. Why does it have to be so complicated and why does there have to be so much angst about how it's done?
You're absolutely right about that. MD is indeed generous that you can discuss such things, and in my previous post in this thread I expressly noted my thanks that there is transparency from the MD team about these rule changes. I've not once made the argument that what happens in the comment sections doesn't get out of hand. That's neither here nor there. I just expressed that the comment pages aren't, in my opinion, to blame for what users in the chapter comments say. I personally feel that this rule is putting the cart before the horse, and are creating a bad precedent of potentially(!) overbearing moderation.
I'll be honestly very frank, if you don't like how it's done on this site, do it yourself, as cliche as it sounds. Because that is literally what many people have done, both now and before, instead of pontificating about censorship and freedom of speech/choice. That is a lot of gall for the lot of you who benefit off pirated grey content, as if you have some indelible rights here. This is a privately maintained site, done practically out of charity, and even contributors are not "customers" who can demand anything.
This is just silly. I don't mean to be dismissive, but the whole "if you don't like what's going on just do it yourself" argument is so beyond the pale at this point. Discussion is what this thread is for, and if you don't think that dissenting opinions have place in this thread, then, well, I hope no one ever stifles your ability to speak your speech.
I will also add, discussing it and suggesting changes is fine and all. But the admins don't have to take it. And just because they disagree doesn't mean they didn't consider it. That already assumes you are right and they are not. That's well and good, but if anything goes wrong, you're not the one who has to fix the problem, they are.
I never once assumed anything. You sure did though.
@Teasday again
Our rules obviously aren't set in stone, but until someone has a better idea that amounts to something more substantive than "just allow everything, people should have the tools already" and/or addresses our actual problem with something other than "just get more mods (and replace them when they burn out)", there's not really much to grasp there. I would love to make this rule unnecessary so for the love of god give us an actualizable reason.
Thank you for giving me a substantive answer on where this rule will end up in actuality going forward, and I do appreciate that you're indulging in the discussion on this topic. However, it seems that this is a mountain out of a molehill situation. I understand that the MD team has to deal with many issues, on top of these reports on certain chapters, and I appreciate the work you do truly. If I didn't I wouldn't bother to speak my mind on this issue. However, I still believe that the agency of the users of the site is their own, and babysitting them when they pitch a bitch fit over things they don't like only hurts the other users that don't have to have their hands held. Now, I understand completely that I'm not in your position and I don't exactly have a better solution to this problem, but I don't think that these kinds of potentially misinterpretable rules serve anyone well.
This rule has nothing to do with "you don't know what you want", and if that's really what you think, it seems to me you're fundamentally misunderstanding why we had to make it despite presumably reading our reason. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that having to remove credits pages isn't just the lesser of two evils here.
I fully disagree. This rule has everything to do with the moderation team deciding what users can't see, even if that's what they want. That's literally the writ of the rule. Beyond that I don't need to be condescended to with that whole "and if that's really what you think, it seems to me you're fundamentally misunderstanding why we had to make it despite presumably reading our reason" bullshit. The circumstances are plenty cut and dry, and in my previous posts I expressed that I completely understand that the MD team can do whatever they want with the site. I also don't think that this is a "lesser of two evils" argument. The filtering and blocking systems work, as they were designed to. If the chapter comment pages aren't up to standard, that's a whole different issue.
@Holo
If someone can make a convincing argument as to why a scanlator has a predetermined right to insert any page they want, regardless of content, into a chapter, that's completely unrelated, then I'm all ears.
That I can't honestly give you. Although, I can tell you that this will drive scanlators and users from the site to other aggregators that don't respect the industry as much as you do. This is a fact.
Until now, all arguments have been unconvincing:
1. Policing scanlation - At a casual glance, it may seem like we're policing scanlation, but if you think about what scanlation actually is (taking raws, cleaning, translating, typesetting, etc), clearly adding extra pages is not part of scanlation.
2. Censorship - If we were indeed doing censorship, then we wouldn't allow political discussions anywhere. Political discussions are allowed in the appropriate forums, and if the chapter itself contains no political content, then chapter comments clearly are not an appropriate place.
Ultimately, the primary purpose of this place is to read and discuss manga, and these rules simply amend a loophole that's existed up until now. It's taken us two years to do it, showing that it really is a last resort.
I would disagree with your first point in that scanlation is an interpretation to begin with. We all know that translation (especially with Japanese) has nuances that aren't exactly cut and dry. Denying that credit pages are part of scanlation is like denying that adding a new paint job to a model airplane isn't model making. Were that really the staunch position of the site, then wouldn't it be prudent to deny all uploaders their credits/extra pages? If scanlation is just what you described, then apparently nothing other than what is in the chapter/volume should be allowed.
As to your second point, I don't have any qualm with that. Like I said, your site your rules. You can make sure certain discussion goes where you want it to.
All told, I can't stop you, and I agree with the intention of the rules you're trying to amend here. I love MangaDex, and I hope to see it flourish.
