Happy Holidays: Server Upgrades and Rule Updates

[schlo]

happy Holidays to everyone.

First I just wanted to say, similar to an earlier poster, holy crap there are people out there who read the credits? I don't read any of rman's stuff other then a few chapters to see if it was interesting. Didn't read the end stuff to even know if he had said anything insulting.

Question: I'm assuming you will, but will you notify the group directly that you have altered their upload? Not just in the general comments.

One concern: People have been provided a tool to block groups. Despite this you have made a change because of them. It seems like you have now provided them a second tool. If they complain enough you will change for them. Maybe not initially but you've taught them if it is repetitive and enough you will change. Maybe not much, just an inch, but still a little closer to the slope.

 

[RonBWL]

To all people who argue MD is doubling standard for not dealing with the Anjou-san credit page months ago, and is now willing to deal with (whoever started this)'s credit page. READ CAREFULLY!

When the incident with Facepalm Scans occurred, there was NO such rules regarding credit pages, because we all assume scan groups are adult and wouldn't get buttburt for this kind of stuff. Turns out, there was. So, MD then tweak the rules to allow two things:

1. Chapter comment: Everything regarding the chapter's content, including credit page, is allowed
2. The credit page: A general guideline was added, allowing groups leeway to put whatever they want into the credit page as long as it doesn't cross the line in an obvious way (e.g political...)

Months passed, and we're facing a new problem. Because of #2, (whoever started this) or whoever it is I heard of used it to his advantage to derail chapter comment sections. Because of #1, the mods can't do anything about it, and many readers are being affected.

Why is this an issue? Maybe you're the one who ignores troll credit pages. Maybe you never read comments. But many general readers do, and until you prove to me that the MAJORITY of people on MD don't give a shit about that, I'll say the latter is the case.

The updating 3.2.7 rule now gives the mods some more control over credit pages so trolls can't just exploit the same loophole to, you get it, troll people with. No one's being banned, their chapters stay, just they're subjected to troll pages removal. They can opt to not post, pull the plug and bring the troll comments somewhere else, readers will lose the release yes but there's not much we can do about that if that's their intention to begin with.

TO SUM IT UP
1. Incident with Facepalm Scans was because there was no such rule back then.
2. Incident with (whoever started this) was because the rule that was supposed to prevent it wasn't clear enough.

I should point out that, the rule that seemingly targets a single group or person, will ALWAYS happen because for the most part scan groups are sensible and don't go up in arm to troll people, so only the very minority one who actually trolls people become targeted as a result.

UPDATE: Since people've pointed out I got the wrong name, I'll just use a placeholder here to not offense anyone

 

[Nick86]

@Nitouryu - You explain much better than me the point to remove content from the scanlator work, is just self censorship to not hurt some people and their agenda.
This is how censorship work, you start with something that majority do not care, then they add more things to censor and nobody again care, then they add more and more, is the so called "the boiled frog principle".
Is a very dangerous thing to do, expecially when you are the ruler that decide what people can see or not. If the decision is to edit other people works (scanlators) then i prefer they remove completely the chapter, the last thing i want to see is another Batoto, something i will never expect knowing the md staff (doki fansub).

 

[Exile]

@RonBWL, Why are you bring up Rapeman? It wasnt him that created the current "problem" ... it was this:
https://mangadex.org/title/37074/wakamono-no-kuro-mahou-hanare-ga-shinkoku-desu-ga-shuushoku-shite-mitara-taiguu-iishi-shachou-mo-tsukaima-mo-kawaikute-saikou-desu/
Just look at Rapeman uploads and comment counts ...
https://mangadex.org/group/303/rapeman-scans
Largest one is Himenospia Vol. 5 Ch. 25 - Lie at 59 comments and lets look at this ...
https://mangadex.org/chapter/763185/comments
Now thats 273 and a dumpster fire ...

I know why this is about, this is about Koolio having put such "credit pages" in the last 3 chapters of the manga series I linked as Rapeman really havent changed at all (and yes, I noticed the call out because I checked his credit pages just now, just so I wasnt making up crap) and for what? 2 years there been no real "incidents" about him ... why exactly did you bring up Rapeman? I mean you arent even sure (as I am because I was in that dumpster fire) as you even said, and I will quote, "Rapeman or whoever it is" yet at the end you are saying this rule is because of him.

Edit:
Also, in case someone wants to Je Accuse me of being Rapeman fan or whatever, the last thing I read from him was Murenase! Shiiton Gakuen that he dropped due to a DMCA a long time ago, I dont even read his other stuff but I do remember what happened in Batoto when all his uploads were deleted, that was the entirely of that series ... no reason was given despite being asked repeatedly including if they could be uploaded without the credits page.

 

[RonBWL]

@Exile Like I said I don't remember who sparked this problem. Will edit my post.

Case in point, my post was for people who blamed MD for doubling standard. Just to clarify

 

[Nick86]

@AbyssalMonkey - Agree, fix the people, do not censor scans and adding more rules that restrict the freedom of speech (the easy way), to avoid people to bitch. If MD staff think that they are understaffed to handle this issue they can simply hire more moderators. This is how you manage such things. Well, i'm happy there is people with common sense.

 

[Exile]

Look, if MD said "extra pages have to be related to the manga series or directly related to the group" that is one thing, what happened is someone is putting completely unrelated things on the uploads that been causing problems, I understand MD would delete pages if I started putting Playboy pin-ups pages in the middle of a manga upload and similar stuff but I also rather they refuse the upload until it complied with the rules.

However this is coming across as "we will delete pages if we dont like their content" because that is what it is, no matter how its written it comes across as "if a mod decides that a credit page making fun of the Dutch is wrong he can delete it" and I do believe its better to simply not allow the entire chapter be uploaded that do it and just remove the "offending page" because as I said, even if I dont like those pages its still the group work and its up to then to decide, not allow mods to delete specific things because all that achieves is going to piss everyone off.

 

[Renko]

Guys over at Kissmanga and other manga aggregator sites are now licking their lips to all the opportunities that will come at their way because of this issue.

What a shame.

I wonder what's going to be banned next because some folks got offended by it.

Loli content perhaps?

The whole Hentai catalogue?

Manga with offensive content?

Man, what a year!

😂

 

[Yatsuki]

The mods have explained several times why they decided on the new rules, with guarantee that they will be transparent about it, not to mention the bar for them to actually involve is pretty high.

People who apparently have no reading comprehension: Booo, our free speech gone, everything mods disagree with will get removed, "snowflakes" reporting "good" scanlators and will make them leave multiplied by 7+ pages

 

[Renko]

@Yatsuki

Anything can happen after this.

There is a possibility that something will go wrong.

There is a possibility that everything will be fine.

People tend to get offended and overreact easily.

There is no telling if something is going to be banned the next time!

Look at Reddit!

For a site that promotes ideas, discussion, and free speech, it sure banned and removed a lot of stuff that are too "problematic" for the masses to handle.

This rule might become the domino block that may lead to future "rules" and "regulations" for the "benefit" of MD's users.

Just saying.

 

[Pauan]

The supposed reason for this change is to make moderator's lives easier by avoiding the heated political debates, correct?

But if so, then shifting those political debates from manga comments to the forums won't help, because the heated debates will still be happening (just in a different place), so the moderator workload will be the same.

So, given that this is a temporary solution which won't help in the long run, this doesn't seem like the right solution to me.

* If the problem is people making lots of false reports, take away those people's ability to make reports.

* If the problem is a particular user repeatedly violating the rules, ban that user (permanently, or for a long time, like a month or year).

* If the problem is a particular thread being overheated, put that thread in "timeout mode", so nobody can post in that thread for a set period of time (e.g. a week). You could even have a "supporter perk" which would allow supporters to post in timeout threads (similar to "sub-only mode" in Twitch).

* If the problem is a thread having a lot of off-topic posts, have a system where a moderator can very easily create a new thread on the forums and move those posts into that new thread (similar to how StackOverflow moves off-topic comments into Chat). Then have a link from the old thread to the new thread (so people know where they are supposed to post). This can be automated to make it very easy for moderators (only a few clicks).

* If the problem is a particular group "pushing the boundaries" (which isn't a problem by itself), mark that group as "controversial" and have a user option to allow users to choose whether to view "controversial" groups or not (similar to the hentai toggle).

* If the problem is too much workload, hire more moderators (and pay them a decent wage). I know you don't like this solution, but it is unavoidable as the site grows.

There are no easy solutions, and there never will be, but these new rules won't fix anything, they will only cause more division and drama because of people arguing over whether a credit page "deserved" to be banned or not.

Quite frankly, I'm shocked that MangaDex is making such a change without asking the community first. This is very different from how the previous situation was handled, where MangaDex actually made a poll (despite a vocal minority, the overwhelming majority chose to *not* change the rules): https://mangadex.org/thread/90179

Reddit is a very poor metric, because upvotes and downvotes are not symmetrical. And a lot of MangaDex users (including myself) don't even use Reddit. So a proper poll on MangaDex itself (similar to the previous situation) is much more accurate.

I'm also shocked at how MangaDex has treated any criticism of these new rules. I understand you've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and you've clearly made up your mind, but the responses seem very dismissive and patronizing. Especially given the results of the previous poll.

It's true that we aren't directly affected by this (since we're not moderators), but that doesn't mean that our opinions don't matter. After all, we are the customers of MangaDex (in some cases literally, as donators). If we don't understand the behind the scenes aspects of moderation, then *help us to understand*. Nobody here *wants* to make the moderator's lives more difficult. But we also don't want bad rules (which won't even solve the problem).

 

[HeroicPasserby]

I don't like Rapeman shit-credits, but I absolutely hate this censorship rule. Political correctness is a cancer. If this rule will apply I demand to remove all Yuri/Shojo ai/Yaoi/Shonen ai, because they are very offensive to me - I blocked them, but who cares, let's start censorship like on Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft (Santa hat issue was just ridiculous), Twitch (you know n-word, etc).

PS. I really like how many users didn't buy this bs rule. I am glad that I started to make a replacement for md.

Merry Christmas for all free people.

 

[InvitedGuest]

Fear mongering is right. Holy shit.

This isn't fucking China. This isn't Twitter. This isn't Facebook. This place is a manga aggregating web-site run by some folks that would rather not sift through tens or hundreds of potentially inflammatory comments caused by a single credit page. (That's not even about the manga, mind you)

There's a time and place for political or controversial discussions and if the manga in question contains neither, then why even incite it? I don't personally know what this Rapeman did, nor would I like to know.

But some people seem to view him as almost like a martyr for free speech. Which is hilarious. Rapeman, the hero who fought the tyrannical rules of MangaDex. We carry on his spirit and seek his guidance. We forever call ourselves the Rapenians. Just amazing.

Anyways, It's always nice to see rules that support official translations. May everyone enjoy their Holidays.

 

[Yatsuki]

@InvitedGuest I wish Mangadex has an upvote system so I can upvote you a thousand times more XD. Lol this part

But some people seem to view him as almost like a martyr for free speech. Which is hilarious. Rapeman, the hero who fought the tyrannical rules of MangaDex. We carry on his spirit and seek his guidance. We forever call ourselves the Rapenians. Just amazing.

struck me so hard. Best statement I've seen so far.

 

[Nick86]

@Renko - Some people already tried to ban hentai and lolis, even if they can block or hide such content. You see, who complain are often minorities or single folks.
If Doki staff want to enforce censorship (i call this in this way because remove something, no matter the content, is censorship), at least they can try 1) hire more mods and 2) before remove any form of content then maybe they should ask what the community think as a whole, using a poll can be a good start. Let the whole community have a voice since such rules can affect everyone, even if you do not care.

Said that i have nothing more to add or will be redundant, happy holidays everyone.

 

[Riztard]

👍👍

 

[Teasday]

_{@Pauan posted:}

But if so, then shifting those political debates from manga comments to the forums won't help, because the heated debates will still be happening (just in a different place), so the moderator workload will be the same.

...It's not anywhere near the same. Moderating comments and dealing with reports associated with them specifically is much easier compared to dealing with actual manga chapters and their comments, not to mention the general fallout. Seemingly no matter what we do, we're got people screaming in one ear that we're SJWs and people in the other screaming we're Nazis. It's fucking absurd. There's more load on cognition and morale here than just shifting through some reports and comments.

* If the problem is a particular thread being overheated, put that thread in "timeout mode", so nobody can post in that thread for a set period of time (e.g. a week). You could even have a "supporter perk" which would allow supporters to post in timeout threads (similar to "sub-only mode" in Twitch).

We could lock threads, but it would be against our other chapter content discussion rules, and we'd just get accused of the same censorship again. It doesn't matter.

* If the problem is too much workload, hire more moderators (and pay them a decent wage). I know you don't like this solution, but it is unavoidable as the site grows.

Nobody is getting paid here, my dude. We do this and then we're getting accused of being for-profit and it'll be even worse than before for the site. Our staff is picked and chosen among trusted people so we can avoid data leaking, inconsistent moderation and so on. Just picking new moderators willy-nilly is going to jeopardize that, and I hardly expect you would like it either.

I'm also shocked at how MangaDex has treated any criticism of these new rules. I understand you've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and you've clearly made up your mind, but the responses seem very dismissive and patronizing.

Sorry that you were so shocked, but unfortunately this tends to happen with me when I can't spend my time productively. I find it hard to take too seriously people who are - in actual effect - ardently opposed to us encroaching on people's right to circumvent forum rules by using the credits pages to vocalize their distaste for "innately repugnant [trans people]", accuse others of being white supremacists and so on. Material that would get their post moderated at best if it were in the forums. I don't know what way people mean their criticism, but from my point of view that is the practical result.

 

[Holo]

Even if, say, we introduced a user setting that allowed users to view controversial credit pages, similar to how we deal with moderated comments, how would comment moderation work?

Allowing people to comment on the controversial credit page, while on topic, would defeat the goal here, which is to stop chapter comments getting derailed. Not allowing people to comment on the controversial page would generate excessive moderation because no doubt people will comment on it (those who would have enabled the setting).

Also, as a rebuttal to people advocating that the scanlator has an inherent right to plaster whatever they want in the credit page simply because they translated the chapter: really? Have they not considered that it is incredibly disrespectful to the author, who most definitely would not want alt-right memes/leftist propaganda tacked onto the end of the chapter? Notwithstanding the fact that most scanlation happens without author's permission anyway. The very least the scanlator can do is respect the original work and not add irrelevant political memes into the back of the chapter. Am I being unreasonable here?

 

[Kanami-chan]

@holo
The very existence of scanlation itself is already extremely disrespectful to mangaka. "at least respect xxx" moral brownie point doesn't make any sense and has absolutely no point at all.
It's unreasonable to control what scanlators can/can't say in their afterwords, whether it's about personal stuff, life issues or... politics that they care about.
It's far more reasonable just to straight up ban donation begging pages altogether because it's extremely disrespectful to profit off mangaka's works.
Actually... I want that. Let's just do that while we're at it. I hate scanlators like k*rei cake and other for-profit patreon-based groups so much.

 

[Teasday]

@Kanami-chan Hang on, how do you go from "it's unreasonable to control what scanlators can/can't say in their afterwords" to immediately promoting banning certain types of afterwords