Honzuki no Gekokujou ~Shisho ni Naru Tame ni wa Shudan wo Erandeiraremasen~ Dai 2-bu 「Hon no Tamenara Miko ni Naru!」 - Vol. 3 Ch. 11 - The Orphanage …

[ninjadork]

@flameshadowwolf That's the point I'm trying to make: You go to any actual communist / fascist / socialist country in the world, and those programs don't exist. Only capitalist countries have enough free flowing wealth that Marxists can afford to spend other people's money with such wild abandon. In a Bastard Marxist Trio country you might put in an application for government assistance, but no amount of paperwork changes the fact that you don't get a damn thing unless you're in bed (literal or figurative) with the right official because there's nowhere near enough "assistance" to give even a shred of it to every poor bastard who walks in the door.

@Chrona I don't quite understand what you're getting at - are you defending communism and trying to tell me that facism and socialism are a-okay to hate? Is it the other way around? Or is there some other thing you're trying to say?

Regardless - I didn't just read the books; I've lived in a BMT country. And it only took me three months to see how fucked it was from top to bottom, and get the fuck out. Their organizational structures and exact hold over the economy might differ but all three of the BMT structures elevate the same ethos to a quasi-religious standard, right down to their own catalogue of heresies and rhetoric - "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs". Which when put into practice translates to "Rob everyone else blind and stack the bodies high so we can die in comfort, and screw all the easy marks who thought we actually wanted to help them."

 

[Doodads]

@Up_to_no_good the way I said it did make it sound like I thought capitalism made it worse, but that's not what I meant. It's just that saying nobody was starving after capitalism was re-introduced is just wrong. Capitalism alone didn't and won't get rid of starvation, although you're probably right that it helped a lot (I'm not informed enough on the matter to judge on the specifics).

 

[Salfaro]

Of course, now that Gil's been reformed, there needs to be a new Gil.

There must always be a Lich King Gil.

 

[Chrona]

@ninjadork
You use the term "Bastard Marxist Trio" or "BMT" which, when googled, turns up nothing, so I am assuming either you pulled that term out of your ass, or had someone else tell you that facism is at all associated with the other two. You can equally hate facism, socialism and communism, my critique isn't whether or not those systems are good, it's the fact you describe facism as being Maxist, on what grounds do you do so?

 

[Doodads]

@MasterLillyclaw yeah, tbh I was cringing at myself as I was writing a comment earlier responding to another's political/economical comment, but sometimes it's hard not to. Though at this point, most of the comments aren't even about the manga itself anymore. Just pretend like this isn't Bookworm's comment section and it's suddenly not so bad anymore

 

[AbuHajaar]

Imagine being an ideologist
This post paid for by the pragmatist gang

 

[RevereShin]

A short but straight-to-the-point chapter. Thank you for the translation!

 

[Purplelibraryguy]

Frankly, while I'd be a lot happier with the idea of giving kids who didn't help a bit less rather than nothing, that's not what bothers me about this scenario. And also, I don't think simple Skinner-style reinforcement works as well with humans as either Myne or the mangaka thinks it does, but that's not what bothers me either.
What strikes me as sort of weird, and manipulated a bit so that the mangaka can do their little parable, is the idea that there were any (able bodied) kids who didn't work, and the idea that anyone had the guts to talk back like that. This is a fairly authoritarian society, and one in which people expect to have to work hard. Half-starved orphanage kids do not normally rebel when they're told to work, or talk back to the well-dressed people. So the scene is frankly kind of contrived--it doesn't ring true to me.
In real life, everyone would have done what they were told, she would have had nobody to withhold food from to make her point, and if there was anyone, they would not have had the audacity to loudly challenge the bosses like that. Also a lot of those prayer poses would have been a lot droopier made by kids with malnutrition who'd been doing physical work all day.
I also find myself wondering, what about the kids who were starved enough that they had no energy and could hardly do anything. She not feeding them?

 

[MasterLillyclaw]

@Purplelibraryguy It has already been established that the orphanage has problem children - see Gil. The orphanage teaches the importance of listening to adult nobles, but a child commoner that's younger and smaller than most of orphans doesn't really inspire authority. We don't know the full details of what the life of the orphans has been like thus far, but there is a repentance chamber used for the punishing of both orphans and attendants, so clearly some of them do step out of line on occasion. Whether or not it's believable that some orphans don't always listen to rules is up to you, but there's certainly a precedent for it in this story.

And in case you've forgotten, other commenters already pointed out that the food in the orphanage is given in a trickle-down nature, more or less from oldest to youngest. The ones starving to death were the unbaptized children at the bottom of the totem pole, due to the fact the orphanage doesn't consider them human (Vol 2 Ch 8) as they might die (high child mortality rate) and they're too young to work. The unbaptized children (who you can distinguish from those baptized as they don't wear the grey robes) were not the ones working for 'reward' (aka extra) food this chapter; the baptized and older children, who have always had better access to food and were never malnourished to begin with, were the ones working to earn the reward. Those older orphans have survived properly off of the gods' grace as a regular meal, so they already have the energy to do work. And Wilma, the lady Myne praised this chapter, was shown eating with the unbaptized children, so those previously starving kids - who have started getting regular meals since Vol 2 Ch 9 anyways and are no longer malnourished to the point of lethargy - are eating just fine too.

 

[Purplelibraryguy]

Meanwhile, wow there are some people here commenting like they're authorities who clearly do not have the faintest clue about socialism, communism, Marx, Marxism, fascism, or capitalism, what any of them are, how they work, or what their relationships with each other are. Not to mention apparently believing that simplistic, counterfactual slogans accurately represent decades of Chinese history. It's all just too far into la-la land for me to engage with.

But one point I can't resist--just so everyone knows, the idea that fascism and socialism or communism are somehow mirror images of each other is not only false, not only bankrupt, but is in fact right wing propaganda--the originators of the idea know it's not true, but they also know everyone hates fascism as much as they hate communism and they don't want people to get the idea that there's something as bad on the rightwards end of the political spectrum as there is on the leftwards end . . . pushing fairly far right (but not fascist, or at least not quite) ideas is easier if people can be persuaded that all the evil is actually left wing. But both the ideas and the practical economic functioning of fascist states is very different from those of socialist or communist countries; they are actually about as opposite as their huge hate-on for each other would suggest.
Even at the most basic philosophical level--one thing that's interesting about fascism is that it almost refuses to have ideas. To the extent that there has been fascist thought, it is deliberately irrational: It appeals to emotion, devalues reason. It's why the parable of the bumblebee, which supposedly scientists claimed wasn't able to fly (but obviously did anyway), struck such a chord with the Nazis; the idea was that with will you could overcome reason, even physical laws. Socialism and particularly communism on the other hand are very rationalist; they tend to start from a few basic, mostly pretty solid ideas and then try to logic their way from there to the perfect society, often without adequately looking at the mucky ground it's actually happening in, let alone stepping in it. There are flaws in both these approaches, but they are obviously very different.

 

[Purplelibraryguy]

@MasterLillyclaw Put it this way: I can well imagine some children having shirked their work--gone through the motions but tried to get by with the minimum. I cannot buy the idea that priests' representatives told them "Do this" and they just didn't. It strikes me as implausible--and, as I say, I think it was just done that way so the mangaka could make a point.
And yeah, I already found it hard to buy how rude Myne's other assistants were to her at the beginning. I can well imagine them quietly grumbling that she's not a proper noble so they shouldn't have to serve her, or when she's not around not bothering to follow through on her instructions, but the whole loud, direct talking back thing has struck me all along as really weird and not at all how strict religious hierarchies work. But this is weirder--these kids are the lowest of the low. They are at the very bottom of society's totem pole; no matter if Myne is a proper noble or not, she's still way above them. They might have been socialized a bit oddly, but it's not like they're feral--they can talk, after all. And there is no way in hell the temple would have socialized them to talk back rudely to their betters. It is an absolute certainty that that kind of behaviour would have normally met with severe punishment. The one thing we can bet these kids would know is, if someone above you does something you think is unjust, you knuckle your forelock and take it. All rebellion happens only when you won't get caught.
So, sorry, but the scene really feels stage managed to me.

 

[yannickq]

@RonBWL yeah but she's banking on other (poor and hungry) kids to selflessly give up their meal. Sure they might, but that's still no argument for purposely depriving someone of a meal when you have plenty to go around.

Like I said, I don't think she'll be doing this more than once. But if she does then it's not very ... humane of her.

Not to mention it seems to go against what that church teaches so it might bring unwanted attention

Also, whoah this comment section is getting out of hand

 

[MasterLillyclaw]

@Purplelibraryguy

And yeah, I already found it hard to buy how rude Myne's other assistants were to her at the beginning.

In that case I find your argument on the orphans backtalking valid, as you're being consistent. I could probably sit down and try to draw together all the points I can gather about orphan treatment in the LNs to try and observe their behavior more thoroughly - for example, we know there's the repentance chamber and restricted food as punishments, but nothing corporal, so maybe temple punishment is simply ineffective for those who don't have the dangling carrot of "live a better life as a noble's attendant" since they can't escalate punishment? That sort of thing - buuut I don't feel like it right now lol.

I can well imagine some children having shirked their work--gone through the motions but tried to get by with the minimum. I cannot buy the idea that priests' representatives told them "Do this" and they just didn't.

Okay I'm sorry I know this is being pedantic, but the definition of "shirk" is literally "to evade the performance of an obligation" and I don't know what to call the behavior of 'sneaking out' or 'pretending to go out on a task while evading their job' (which is how I would describe their behavior from the little snippet we see on page 20) if not shirking lol. But regardless, I understand your point that they could have possibly done the bare minimum, and if you think their behavior is implausible, I accept that.

 

[FullDiver]

@Purplelibraryguy, in case you've already forgotten, Gil was completely unaware that children were starving in the orphanage. He was already out of there and a gray priest by the time the orphans were essentially abandoned. If you actually paid attention to the chapter, you'll see that the orphanage kids are still wearing rags. The person in question wasn't, and is therefore presumably in the same situation as Gil.
Regarding the temple hierarchy, all the other blue priests (the people the gray priests obey, serve, and probably subconsciously emulate) consider Myne to be lesser than them and not worth any respect, so why should the gray priests respect her? The brat also mirrors Gil's sentiments from earlier in the manga by saying it outright: "you're just a dumb commoner," implying that disdain for commoners is prevalent enough among even gray priests to explain his behavior.
If a person you absolutely had no reason to respect (or even disdained), were put in a position of authority over you, how likely would you be to listen to them, especially when the people you directly answer to seem to look down on her enough to actively sabotage her?
As we've already been shown, the chief priest (and by extension, Fran) is a special exception, and she had to earn Gil's and Delia's respect and adoration. And now she's earned Wilma's and that of the other people who've wanted to help the orphans for a while but had to answer to people who didn't care.

 

[Pandoot]

@aFFi honestly makes a lot more sense PHEW. I was focusing more on their expressions which didn't seem keen on getting tomatoed though I can imagine Maine's not use to that sort of culture and Lutz worried about Maine.

 

[Alrange]

*sheds tear*
Praise the sun

 

[ninjadork]

@Chrona That's a better answer than I was expecting.

However, you've fallen victim to what might well be the single greatest propaganda campaign to ever be manufactured by humanity; the idea that there is a major ideological difference between facism and communism. When I call communism / facism / socialism the BMT, it's a self-made label designed to emphasize both the propaganda campaign in question and the reality that there is very little difference between the three. All of them are functional variations of Marxist sociopolitical theory, and all of them are wholeheartedly devoted to using the government as a tool to ramrod said theory down everyone's throats.

Remember, the Nazis were National Socialists. The distinction between facism & communism / socialism didn't exist in any meaningful fashion until Operation Barbarossa, when Hitler betrayed the non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. It was then that the Soviet propaganda machine swung into overdrive and began spinning "facism" as "right-wing".

Disentangling the entire thing is an endeavor worthy of a PhD thesis all on its own, but here's the quick rundown; facism and communism both adhere to a strict and bloody-minded insistence on state control over the means of production, as well as an insistence on using the various kinds of force to "improve" society. These are both classic calling cards of Marxist philosophy. The difference between the two, and the major source of contention, is the exact method of control over economics. Communism insists on total state control over the economy; every single major economic entity is a government position and is staffed with government employees. Facism allows a measure of control to independent economic entities - so long as said entities have political "advisors" in command positions and are perfectly obedient to the government's demands.

A real-life example to consider: China's communist period from post-WWII to the 1980s (ish), and its transition over to a facist economic model from the late 1990s onwards.

 

[Chrona]

@ninjadork

However, you've fallen victim to what might well be the single greatest propaganda campaign to ever be manufactured by humanity; the idea that there is a major ideological difference between facism and communism. When I call communism / facism / socialism the BMT, it's a self-made label designed to emphasize both the propaganda campaign in question and the reality that there is very little difference between the three.

Alright so you did in fact make it up yourself to associate the two ideas, got it.

All of them are functional variations of Marxist sociopolitical theory, and all of them are wholeheartedly devoted to using the government as a tool to ramrod said theory down everyone's throats.

You've read Marxist sociopolitical theory then? What parts?

Disentangling the entire thing is an endeavor worthy of a PhD thesis all on its own, but here's the quick rundown; facism and communism both adhere to a strict and bloody-minded insistence on state control over the means of production, as well as an insistence on using the various kinds of force to "improve" society. These are both classic calling cards of Marxist philosophy.

Why is application of force a calling card of Marxist philosophy?

A real-life example to consider: China's communist period from post-WWII to the 1980s (ish), and its transition over to a facist economic model from the late 1990s onwards.

This would imply that China's economy improved rapidly by switching to facism over communism, which seems to indicate that there is in fact a difference. If they were the exact same, wouldn't the economy and power of China maintained instead of increase? Unless the current Chinese economy isn't also a good example of fascism either. If anything, China went from something very similar to what Marxist described in sociopolitical theory, to something else entirely. Are you perhaps just using "Marxist" as a synonym for "Authoritarian"?

 

[NerdViking]

as someone that have read the WN i will hold myself and not comment on this themes (economy/political) because "ascendance of a book" isn't a piece of fiction that dive in this merits not even as marginal themes.

some things that seems being missed for many people
1-blue priests disdain towards myne(hatred on the case of the HB) being informed/hinted to the orphanage.
if you remember the Myne attendants themselves are passed as "problems" to her and the orphanage is the same.
2-Myne position is very unique. She is not a noble. Has mana and money that they(temple) desperately need. Wasn't subservient even threatened with the her life or of her family. Is fragile enough to any "mistreatment" could lead to direct death leaving the hopes and concessions to ashes.
the general position of the blue priests becomes "let her be until we have mana and money spare so we can get rid of her and pretend that this never happened" and also"let's create minor inconveniences to gain a favor from the High Bishop that hate her". And in the middle of all that the grey priests are not sure of who treat her.

 

[Keansor]

Searching through the comments for people talking about the actual chapter and not people @-ing each other is becoming a real chore these days.

I'm sad that there weren't more panels of Myne talking to the people who took initiative on helping, but I guess it makes sense given that Wilma is the only one that actually matters for the story.