Imasara desu ga, Osananajimi wo Suki ni Natte Shimaimashita - Ch. 41 - Everything, Falling Apart

[GennArc]

A different perspective is that if you're in different classes and different clubs you're not spending much time during the day w/ each other anyway. In most high school manga, a good chunk of the time the couple spends together is after school/on weekends, where living right next door makes it much easier to see each other.

I am not talking about a random high school manga, I'm talking about this particular one where they have always been together since their childhood, both at school and after, but then Hikari just casually drops the bomb that she chose a top school and got a recommendation already, and she doesn't seem to care if they are gonna be together or not.

Plus, from Hikari's perspective Yuu has already started distancing himself from her in middle school

Where does this come from?

It's not endless twisting to interpret a character who masks their feelings and communicates indirectly to be masking their feelings and communicating indirectly.

It is. Because whenever she says something with a clear hidden intent, it's followed up by a line of her own thoughts, at least in the novel version and when it's her POV. In this case there's no such follow-up.
I agree that interpretations are necessary when we talk about human interactions, but saying "Hikari is direct so there's no need to search for hidden meaning in her words, and Yami is indirect so let's interpret her every phrase as if she means something else" is just a wrong approach, people are never exclusively direct or exclusively indirect.

Aya can treasure that the boy she's madly in love with genuinely loves her in the moment

Well, we've come a long way from "she doesn't believe it":

I don't think she believes it all that much in 29 b/c she explicitly asked who he's in love, b/c she's already decided to ghost him, & b/c she's locked into the idea that he loves Hikari.

to "(she believes) he genuinely loves her in the moment".

Yami almost kisses Hikari when teasing Hikari about having never been kissed.

That's why I suggested rereading it. She doesn't tease Hikari at all in that chapter, she is being absolutely serious in both versions.

 

[story645]

but then Hikari just casually drops the bomb that she chose a top school

This is less bomb more the first time they talked about it and again not a big deal from Hikari's POV b/c they live next door.

Also Hikari is a top student while Yuu is apparently not, she may have just assumed they wouldn't be going to the same school just like Yuu assumed they would be - mismatched expectations are not an uncommon theme in this manga.

Where does this come from?

Doesn't it come up in like this chapter or a previous one that Yuu has started distancing himself from her?

In this case there's no such follow-up.

The follow up is her feelings spilling out as bold reckless words & in manga Yom not showing her expression.

Which throughout, Yom is pretty intentional about showing or cutting off the expression, the eyes in particular. Look at how in 28 her expression is earnest when she's asking him to move in but then her reaction is shaded.

ETA: also the sum of my claim is that the conversation going "are you lonely? yeah, I love you, you're drunk, you're pent up,[more on sex them], beach" is showing that Aya thinks Yuu is lonely b/c he's pent up b/c that's the order of the conversation. Her teasing doesn't negate her thinking this is true b/c this is the thing she's choosing to tease about right after asking that he's lonely & up to this point she's only teased Yuu about things she thinks are true.

we've come a long way

Meh, in the first instance I was talking specifically about the forever kind of love that would break her resolve to walk away from him (given everything that follows the b/c) & in the second I was explicitly talking about momentary love.

She doesn't tease Hikari at all in that chapter,

And so, after being thoroughly teased and played with by the three of them,

 

[GennArc]

This is less bomb more the first time they talked about it

Sure, from an outsider perspective. But for him it's definitely a bomb: his best friend and crush already got a recommendation for a high-end school, which he has no hope to enroll in, and it's the first time he ever heard about it. So she decided on it and went for it without ever discussing her choice with him, his hopes to be together with her in high school are sunk before even coming to the surface.

Doesn't it come up in like this chapter or a previous one that Yuu has started distancing himself from her?

Nothing I can remember.

The follow up is her feelings spilling out as bold reckless words

Yes, her sexual innuendo? What about it? She even explains that she's doing it more for herself

I wasn't drunk. I wasn't high, either.
But still, I'd get caught up in my own provocations, letting them excite me as I piled on.

Using dirty talk to get myself hyped up, trying to ignore everything else.
And why did I need to hype myself up so much? Well...

since she is missing him and has all the family drama surrounding her at the moment, so she needs to "ignore everything else" and distract herself from it.

is showing that Aya thinks Yuu is lonely b/c he's pent up b/c that's the order of the conversation

It shows that she is teasing him in her usual way, which she enjoys a lot, while including some sexual jokes, see above why.

Her teasing doesn't negate her thinking this is true

We've been over this already - going by this logic, she must also think he is going to betray her by publishing revenge porn.

And so, after being thoroughly teased and played with by the three of them

So can you find an instance of Yami teasing Hikari?

 

[story645]

his hopes to be together with her in high school are sunk before even coming to the surface.

Yeah and? We went down this rabbit hole b/c I said the Yuu/Aya vignette had the same structure as all their other encounters, you countered that that the Yuu/Hikari encounters then also must have the same structure. I don't disagree - Yuu gets his hopes up and flames out, Hikari gets her hopes up and flames out.

going by this logic, she must also think he is going to betray her by publishing revenge porn.

Yes she's worried he'll betray her (if not revenge porn specifically) b/c Aya has all the trust issues.

t shows that she is teasing him in her usual way, which she enjoys a lot,

Again, the things she teases him about are all things she thinks are true - him being sad about the exam, him liking Hikari, him being a virgin. By this logic, she thinks it's tough for him to not see her b/c he's not getting laid.

so she needs to "ignore everything else" and d

You know that using sex in this way is self medicating right? It's basically the same thing as getting drunk or high. Which Aya is turning to sex 'cause her mom does & Yuu isn't offering Aya a healthier alternative.

Hell Yuu recognizes this in the vignette when they're both using sex this way, but in the follow ups it's unclear if he's oblivious (which Aya's POV seems to indicate) or trying to not push her b/c she's been through so much (which Yuu's POV seems to indicate). What we know from Aya's crash out is that she wants Yuu to call out her lies, which I think includes her using sex as deflection. Which to come back to wtf we're even discussing - I think this comment is part of a larger pattern of Aya having a complicated relationship w/ the role sex is playing in her relationship with Yuu.

So can you find an instance of Yami teasing Hikari?

Her use of idiot as an affectionate nickname b/c she thinks Hikari is a bit of an optimistic idiot in the best way possible.

 

[BotchoRanallo]

Everything is falling apart indeed, just like the author's sanity & mental state. Hope you have a nice break author, you maniac.

 

[GennArc]

We went down this rabbit hole b/c I said the Yuu/Aya vignette had the same structure as all their other encounters, you countered that that the Yuu/Hikari encounters then also must have the same structure.

It was less about the structure and more about what impression Maruto was trying to give. And yeah, going by this logic, Hikari is shown as totally insensitive and their friendship as quite shallow, because she didn't ever care to talk to her best friend before deciding to go for a school that's totally out of his league.

Again, the things she teases him about are all things she thinks are true

And she's also seriously considering sending him a sexy video of herself?

You know that using sex in this way is self medicating right? It's basically the same thing as getting drunk or high. Which Aya is turning to sex 'cause her mom does & Yuu isn't offering Aya a healthier alternative.

This psychoanalysis is going off the rails, really. It has absolutely nothing to do with her mom, and we don't even know what kind of relationship she had with that new husband/Yami's step dad, yet you keep bringing her up as if it's a well known fact.
Healthy alternative, self medicating, it all just has nothing to do with the situation. They didn't meet for a couple of weeks because Yami was dealing with her family situation and didn't want to involve Yuu in that. I know, you're going to bring up things like she doesn't trust him etc, but please just try to understand that there are people who don't want to involve others, especially those they care about, in their own mess, who prefer to solve problems on their own.

Her use of idiot as an affectionate nickname

If saying "baaaka" qualifies as teasing in your book, okay, but it feels like this is just for the sake of argument. Like I said, when you go through every chapter where Yami and Hikari interact, the former is always giving her opinions straight, without joking or even joking tone.

Sorry if this sounded harsh. I just find it hard to deal with points that don't come right from the source material, which I can't check myself. All these interpretations are almost impossible to refute because they rely less on the source material and more on what's missing from it. It's impossible to prove something doesn't exist.

 

[Ar2009]

Anyone have an idea when the next chapter is?

 

[story645]

people who don't want to involve others, especially those they care about, in their own mess

Folks I know who don't want to involve other people keep their mess locked down tight.
Aya spilled about her family at the hotel & the first lie she tells Yuu is that she's lying about her family & in the phone conversation she's lying about the noise & in her crash out she desperately wants Yuu to not believe her lies. I dunno, I think it adds up to she wanted Yuu to realize that she wanted his support.

And she's also seriously considering sending him a sexy video of herself?

Yes? What in Aya's characterization leads you to believe she wouldn't?

f saying "baaaka" qualifies as teasing in your book,

I think it's every bit the same as calling Yuu a virgin. Hikari's narrative says the three girls were teasing her, which means Aya was definitely included. The almost kiss is also teasing unless this manga has become yuri.

with points that don't come right from the source material

They do come from the source material, I'm just filtering them through the tropes and genres I'm familiar with. Like take Aya's crash out - I see that and immediately connect it to the romantic fantasy found in everything from Austen to AI slop: for her boy to see her (don't believe the lies), fight for her (chase her), & choose her (the snark about Hikari).

ETA: Which to get meta, a major theme in this manga is how events get filtered through the characters different perspectives.

Like the going to different schools thing; both their view points are totally understandable given their characterization. Hikari feels secure in the friendship so is not worried about not seeing Yuu since he lives next door, while Yuu is insecure in the friendship so sees this as evidence that she doesn't care if they see each other.

 

[wtfsigma]

Has this been canceled? Why is there no chapter for 2 months now.

 

[GennArc]

Folks I know who don't want to involve other people keep their mess locked down tight.

If they keep it tight, you never learn about the existence of a mess to begin with.

Aya spilled about her family at the hotel

Yeah, before they even started dating and in an outburst she immediately regrets about. After that she consistently fends off his attempts to learn more, which is a direct contradiction to "she wanted his support".

Yes? What in Aya's characterization leads you to believe she wouldn't?

That, despite her bold words and actions, she is actually a much more gentle person when it comes to love? Even the way she hugs her phone (with Yuu on the other end) in that chapter shows that.

Hikari's narrative says the three girls were teasing her, which means Aya was definitely included.

Despite that chapter not having any teasing from Yami, yeah.

I'm just filtering them through the tropes and genres I'm familiar with. Like take Aya's crash out - I see that and immediately connect it to the romantic fantasy found in everything from Austen to AI slop

Isn't this perfectly described by "don't come right from the source material"? Like, I see this situation, and I saw some similar situations in other books/movies/..., so the rationale behind it must be also similar - this kind of thinking? Well, that's exactly the part I find hard to deal with. What if it's just not the same, what if the tropes you mentioned are actually not used here or played in a different way? I'd rather just look at tropes used a posteriori, after the situation plays out already, instead of trying to guess what characters are thinking by applying experience from other works from the same genre.
Besides, it's like the 7th work by Maruto I'm reading or watching, and while I see similarities to some of them, so far most of my "predictions" went wrong because I was subsconsciously basing them off of past works.

Like the going to different schools thing; both their view points are totally understandable given their characterization. Hikari feels secure in the friendship so is not worried about not seeing Yuu since he lives next door, while Yuu is insecure in the friendship so sees this as evidence that she doesn't care if they see each other.

Or you could read it differently: in middle school Hikari was taking him for granted and wasn't really worried about them going separate ways (which changed in the first year of high school when she fell in love with him), while he always had her in mind.

 

[GennArc]

Has this been canceled? Why is there no chapter for 2 months now.

It's on a short hiatus. Should return either on August 25 or two weeks later. They were taking their time preparing for comiket volume release + official manga volume release + official LN volume release.

 

[story645]

If they keep it tight, you never learn about the existence of a mess to begin with.

Yup that's the point - you end up hearing about it second hand years later. We're in Aya's head so she never needed to tell Yuu for the reader to know anything. Also she tells her friends all the sordid details. Which if you try to argue "but it's all done now", she still held back that info in her crash out.

After that she consistently fends off his attempts to learn more,

He makes like one attempt that she deflects, never anything of the stubborn sort that, going by her crash out, is what she would read as him being interested. Dumping family stuff on someone who doesn't care about it is very much something a teenage girl would see as being inconvenient.

That, despite her bold words and actions, she is actually a much more gentle person when it comes to love?

These aren't mutually exclusive? She's also extremely sexually forward.

 

[story645]

Despite that chapter not having any teasing from Yami, yeah.

🤷‍♀️, from Hikari's POV it was unequivocally teasing.

in middle school Hikari was taking him for granted and wasn't really worried about them going separate ways

Yes, that's the way someone insecure could read the actions of someone who feels secure in the relationship? Like you take someone for granted when you feel secure that they're not going anywhere.

so the rationale behind it must be also similar - this kind of thinking?
<snip>
so far most of my "predictions" went wrong because I was subsconsciously basing them off of past works.

I'm always basing my interpretations based on what's happing on page, something like"ok, so Aya's behaving like a manic pixie waifu...wait she's spiraling, little bit desperate...seems to be a deconstruction of the manic pixie waifu" which not having read Maruto's previous worka, does Maruto usually play tropes straight?

Like I have yet to be surprised by anything except the twist (which I do agree was kinda foreshadowed) b/c I think Maruto has been really consistent in characterization and super diligent about structure. Also, I've been reading this very much as Hikari and Aya are the protags & not Yuu.

 

[Greinhmorf]

That's why I suggested rereading it. She doesn't tease Hikari at all in that chapter, she is being absolutely serious in both versions.

I think that is the only thing I disagree with U as a Yami supporter, Yami did tease Hikari with that kiss attempt, although I don't know if she ever teases Hikari about "Ta-kun"

 

[Greinhmorf]

Hey, I have been thinking about this for quite a long time, but don't any of you also think that Yami is like a senpai version of Rinko Kobayakawa, but with a more complicated household?

 

[GennArc]

We're in Aya's head so she never needed to tell Yuu for the reader to know anything. Also she tells her friends all the sordid details. Which if you try to argue "but it's all done now", she still held back that info in her crash out.

She tells Yuu in an outburst and immediately regrets it. And to friends she only told "this is the apartment which my step dad used to cheat on her mom", or at least that's what we have seen. She told Yuu much more than that.

He makes like one attempt that she deflects

He asks in chapter 27 and then in chapter 28. That's more that one attempt.

She's also extremely sexually forward.

When she's with him, yes.

from Hikari's POV it was unequivocally teasing.

Yami did tease Hikari with that kiss attempt

I didn't want to go to deep into this, but basically my initial argument was that the manner in which she talks to Yuu is very different from the one she does with Hikari. When she is talking to Yuu, teasing is always a part of communication. In that chapter 5 we're discussing, she keeps giving straight serious answers to Hikari's most embarassing questions. She doesn't tease her about being a kissless virgin or whatever else, while with Yuu she'd never let go of opportunity to tease him about it.
So whether you consider that kiss "attempt" teasing or not is just arguing semantics and has nothing to do with what we were initially discussing.

ok, so Aya's behaving like a manic pixie waifu...wait she's spiraling, little bit desperate...seems to be a deconstruction of the manic pixie waifu

That's what I try to never do. Once people start framing a character as belonging to some archetype or trope, they stop seeing the whole picture, instead focusing on "hah, that's typical tsundere behavior" or "oh, she has some yandere elements in addition to being genki" as if the character is borrowed from some archetype rulebook. Meanwhile two characters of the same archetype can be so different that trying to call them both archetype_name loses all meaning.
So when you ask if Maruto plays tropes straight, I kinda don't know how to answer. Like yes, Mitoko, Himeo, Kazusa and Eriri all qualify as tsundere and do the normal tsundere thing as in hiding feelings/embarassment behind a harsh attitude, but they all go in different directions with it. Same with plot tropes.

Hey, I have been thinking about this for quite a long time, but don't any of you also think that Yami is like a senpai version of Rinko Kobayakawa, but with a more complicated household?

I never read/played Love Plus, but tags on vndb look very similar indeed.
Btw, I'm surprised someone is still following our conversation. We need to stop this surely

 

[story645]

She told Yuu much more than that.

Both are major family drama, as her friends point out.

He asks in chapter 27 and then in chapter 28. That's more that one attempt.

What I mean is he asks once, gets a deflection, immediately drops it. Hell he acknowledges she's probably lying to him but doesn't push her on it (which I think the crash out supports the idea that it bothers her that he doesn't). Compare to Hikari, who's basically a dog w/ a bone in ch 33.

When she's with him, yes.

Which sending him a video would include yes.

When she is talking to Yuu, teasing is always a part of communication.

I think they're good comparisons of Aya engaging in playful teasing as a communication style. I agree that she does it less w/ Hikari, but I think that supports the reason we went down this rabbit hole, which was my claiming Maruto is compare/contrasting the two: I think a lot of Aya's teasing w/ Yuu is deflection and distraction (we've had this argument so not gonna rehash) which yes I agree is just not a thing she feels she has to do w/ Hikari. Like how you pointed that she's sincere w/ Hikari, Aya also doesn't tease Yuu when she's being vulnerable with him.

while with Yuu she'd never let go of opportunity to tease him about it.

But she doesn't tease him for it - she laughs at him for liking Hikari but she's outright pissed at him for not being able to go through w/ sleeping her. In neither her nor Yuu's pov does she tease him for his inexperience.

Once people start framing a character as belonging to some archetype or trope, they stop seeing the whole picture

Meh, I'm mostly trying to see Aya and Hikari as teenage girls, b/c I was one. For all you disagree w/ my interpretations of all the things, I think that events that came later have (mostly?) not thrown a wrench into my original arguments. This is not to rehash all our old fights, this is to make the point that I think Maruto, to his credit, is writing teenage girls that I (as a girl) find fairly realistic.

ETA: This is not to say that all girls are the same of course, but that there are things that read more or less real b/c of how common they are/general socialization. (Also I could swear we've had this conversation before )