Isekai Kenkokuki - Vol. 3 Ch. 21.1
- Thread starter MangaDex
- Start date
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- May 31, 2018
- Messages
- 1,954
Dammit, Raymond! Ya're not going gay for Almus? @.@
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2018
- Messages
- 3,542
What @greyhud90 said. That plan is tricky, right from the start. If you side with the people, you turn against the nobles. If you aren't part of the problem, there is a chance you are part of the solution and we can't have that! It might work, if the people are right about to behead the nobles and that plan might be seen as a last resort. But even then, many nobles would chose to slaughter their own population into submission before yielding. And if that happens you've got yourself a civil war, followed by invasions. You somehow have to tempt the nobles into turning themselves in. What MC said: The nobles with bad lands and debts (no perspective, no future) might give up what they have for some "real" power. But the really influential ones would just side with the friendly enemy next door.
I see only one way how this might work out and you won't like it. (I certainly don't.) The hostile, influential ones have to lose their ability to act in the right moment, at the same time and their is one realistic way to achieve that. Simultaneously murder them. Sadly all of them and their families. Even if you kill the family heads, their sons, wives, daughters, brothers, nephews, niece, uncles, aunts, brothers and sisters in law, ... , gardeners, ... , newly appointed 13 years old guard, ... or least favorite pet would just become the new head and stand against you, right the next moment. (Okay, the chain will be severed somewhere before gardener, but still....)
And you can't even honey some family members beforehand, to replace the old head after his dead and join your side, because their are too many people involves and someone WILL talk and that's that.
I see only one way how this might work out and you won't like it. (I certainly don't.) The hostile, influential ones have to lose their ability to act in the right moment, at the same time and their is one realistic way to achieve that. Simultaneously murder them. Sadly all of them and their families. Even if you kill the family heads, their sons, wives, daughters, brothers, nephews, niece, uncles, aunts, brothers and sisters in law, ... , gardeners, ... , newly appointed 13 years old guard, ... or least favorite pet would just become the new head and stand against you, right the next moment. (Okay, the chain will be severed somewhere before gardener, but still....)
And you can't even honey some family members beforehand, to replace the old head after his dead and join your side, because their are too many people involves and someone WILL talk and that's that.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2018
- Messages
- 5,716
@ninjadork
Its still a better system than the retarded centralization plan hes got.
@givemersspls
Its still a better system than the retarded centralization plan hes got.
@givemersspls
Its a Japanese author, of course they want a goverment with complete power that regulates everything, they cant seem to function properly as individuals and the mere notion of it keeps being foreign to them.
I agree whole heartedly.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2018
- Messages
- 1,018
@boag @givemersspls
My two cents
My two cents
We aren't dealing with an education population without restrictions on information travel here. Centralization makes a lot of sense for an ancient civilization where it takes a lot of time for communication to travel from one government entity to another. They've even mentioned that in this chapter. Take a look at world history. The most successful old nations were ones that centralized their decision making. In the context of the world in this manga, it could mean a matter of survival.
This is nothing to do with morality. Certainly a centralized government would be far more likely to become autocratic. However, for a nation with clear communication issues and governing nobles with their competing interests at heart, it might be the best way forward.
I would also like to note that oppression can happen with any form of government. Oppression by the majority happens just as often as oppression from an autocratic leader. A certain amount of selflessness among leaders as well as institutional checks and balances are necessary to keep any government fair and it's people free.
This is nothing to do with morality. Certainly a centralized government would be far more likely to become autocratic. However, for a nation with clear communication issues and governing nobles with their competing interests at heart, it might be the best way forward.
I would also like to note that oppression can happen with any form of government. Oppression by the majority happens just as often as oppression from an autocratic leader. A certain amount of selflessness among leaders as well as institutional checks and balances are necessary to keep any government fair and it's people free.
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2019
- Messages
- 253
Can someone explain what's Almus is trying to achieve? Compared to the 'current' system(manga, not the reality). Is he trying to create some sort of Senate system? He is suggesting giving the common people some power(decentralization) but somehow the end goal is centralization?
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2018
- Messages
- 1,018
@givemersspls well I apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying. I would like to hear more about your position if you wouldn't mind elaborating.
Just as a side comment:
Just as a side comment:
Almus's goals are keeping this king happy and protecting the people of the Griffin Village. This King wants to hear how centralization will work for him, not necessarily how it would actually work. It is in Almus's best interest, therefore, to be the king's conformation bias. Not to say that the author thought that far ahead or that the characters are that complex. Just saying Almus doesn't need to tell him what works. In fact, it benefits Almus to weaken that king who, while his benefactor, is also his greatest existential threat. Also and unless I'm mistaken, Almus's previous life did not have any exposure to political theories or ancient history. Once again: I don't believe the author thought that much about it but at least it is some sort of justification for his advice.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2018
- Messages
- 1,018
@givemersspls
You can use it the Spoiler Tags to shrink long posts for others
You can use it the Spoiler Tags to shrink long posts for others
I see your point about the likely chance of corrupt advisors blinding the ruler to what is really going on. I would surmise that a smart ruler could counteract being manipulated through an intelligent network the ruler controls, some sort of citizen representation, or just going incognito every once and a while. I wouldn't think that it would happen in this manga because the world-building and realism in the context of character interaction isn't as thought out as one would like.
On that note: It is my opinion that the Almus is a bit of a Mary-Sue for the author and his advice is going to be great for the king because the author wills it to be.
I should mention that I didn't think that Almus was trying to weaken the king. Just that, from a strategic perspective, it's best for the Griffin Village that the king is occupied with issues not involving them. Having him worry about foreign invaders or political bickering between his soon-to-be many advisors is preferred to him being overly concerned about his new neighbors in Griffin Land.
On that note: It is my opinion that the Almus is a bit of a Mary-Sue for the author and his advice is going to be great for the king because the author wills it to be.
I should mention that I didn't think that Almus was trying to weaken the king. Just that, from a strategic perspective, it's best for the Griffin Village that the king is occupied with issues not involving them. Having him worry about foreign invaders or political bickering between his soon-to-be many advisors is preferred to him being overly concerned about his new neighbors in Griffin Land.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2018
- Messages
- 11,248
oh boy politics. the comments section's gonna LOVE this.
you guys are discussing it actively like discussing porn
you guys are discussing it actively like discussing porn
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2018
- Messages
- 11,248
@givemersspls yes i know. i'm just giving a friendly jab since some people DO discuss politics as heated as that one steamy porn vid you fapped to once, i heard.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2018
- Messages
- 9,299
What is this uncle saying out of the blue.
Group Leader
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2018
- Messages
- 894
Holy crap the comments on this chapter are good.
I wasn't as well informed on the Japanese historical political systems, but this made me research it, and it's a pretty interesting fucking mess of a subject.
Now I understand better why Almus is giving such bad advice to the King.
With his modern knowledge, even if it's just basic world history, he should be able to think of a better way to do things.
I wasn't as well informed on the Japanese historical political systems, but this made me research it, and it's a pretty interesting fucking mess of a subject.
Now I understand better why Almus is giving such bad advice to the King.
With his modern knowledge, even if it's just basic world history, he should be able to think of a better way to do things.
If he wants a strong and stable government that will last for a long long time, I think that Switzerland's political system would be the best, a confederation (federalism) with a large parliament and direct democracy.
The problem with this is that the King would pretty much lose all power. It would strip the power from the nobles and monarchs alike.
But I really can't find in History a monarchic system that would be sustainable indefinitely. As your population becomes more and more knowledgeable, apt and richer, democracy is going to happen, sooner or later. You either keep your people well, giving them education, healthcare and liberty... or you keep the reigns tight, oppressing your people and crushing dissidence as soon as it rises to maintain power.
Maybe the Spanish or English systems would be acceptable, where the Monarchy still exists, but has pretty much no political power.
I still think that the best way for this King to make sure his name isn't forgotten, and to be certain that his descendent don't end up as "the reason we created the guillotine", is probably to create a strong democracy and give back the power to the people. Almus will probably NEVER even mention that, seeing that his views seem to be very Japanocentric, but I still think this would be the best way.
The problem with this is that the King would pretty much lose all power. It would strip the power from the nobles and monarchs alike.
But I really can't find in History a monarchic system that would be sustainable indefinitely. As your population becomes more and more knowledgeable, apt and richer, democracy is going to happen, sooner or later. You either keep your people well, giving them education, healthcare and liberty... or you keep the reigns tight, oppressing your people and crushing dissidence as soon as it rises to maintain power.
Maybe the Spanish or English systems would be acceptable, where the Monarchy still exists, but has pretty much no political power.
I still think that the best way for this King to make sure his name isn't forgotten, and to be certain that his descendent don't end up as "the reason we created the guillotine", is probably to create a strong democracy and give back the power to the people. Almus will probably NEVER even mention that, seeing that his views seem to be very Japanocentric, but I still think this would be the best way.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2018
- Messages
- 5,716
@PlanOfInaction
@aFFi
Depending on the geographical size and location, it worked well for Switzerland because they a sorrounded by Alps, which have made them literally impossible to invade, and has kept a tight nit culture.
honestly the best way for the King to hold power, would have been to pump out a bunch of kids and form political marriages with the strongest of the families/houses, its what worked for hundreds of years in Europe.
On the nose,
@aFFi
Depending on the geographical size and location, it worked well for Switzerland because they a sorrounded by Alps, which have made them literally impossible to invade, and has kept a tight nit culture.
honestly the best way for the King to hold power, would have been to pump out a bunch of kids and form political marriages with the strongest of the families/houses, its what worked for hundreds of years in Europe.
