Isekai Mahou wa Okureteru! - Vol. 3 Ch. 15 - Demon General Rajas III

[cor3zone]

@MolaCola Guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't talking about what 'is', I was talking about what 'should be'. Authority should always strive to make the best decisions, in order to remain authority. Our history shows that poor choices leads to rebellion/revolution. It's why true monarchy is very rare in our modern world.

The dude straight up admitted to not wanting to lie to the 'Hero', so him getting "caught" is unlikely. Besides, the 'Hero' is not stupid. If he returned to the capital and MC was not there, he would probably raise hell until MC was physically found.

 

[MolaCola]

@cor3zone nah nah mb i only read your last comment as well as gai's response
you get people that say and believe the government has to do "this," met a guy ranting about the wonders of facial recognition tech and how it won't be misused
so atimes i try to take things literally.
i believe history also shows that if you have a strong control over information (be it news, standard education, etc etc)
you can craft a narrative that has people insisting on supporting policies or elected officials that ultimately will not act in their interests
poor choices are all about perception, you can feed someone a shit sandwich if you can convince em its either not a shit sandwich, better than anything else you are going to find, both
orrrr perhaps a more incremental approach sprinkle a lil bacon on it tell em "we cant get you anything better than a shit sandwich but we'll spend decades perhaps getting you something a lil more tolerable"
must have glossed over him not wanting to lie to the hero
its a matter of ignorance, information isn't on the hero's side. If you're going to expose MC left, you don't have to expose the peril you can bend the truth

 

[Nk9bjP4A]

oh no, he put the food on the dirty ground.

 

[trickshot121]

Spoiler

Curse scene when

 

[boogle]

@GodGinrai It's so sad that there isn't any official word on the next volume, it was pretty high on LN sales in Japan as well so I assume there is at least pressure on them on why there is no info (at least I haven't seen anything on JP forums).

For all of you arguing about the decision to send the MC as a decoy, let me just say this. The next 2 - 3 chapters will support one point of you over the other which will become a big plot point later on. Hope we get manga translations to that point.

 

[cor3zone]

@MolaCola Sure, information control can do incredible things. But there's no guarantee the successor will have the same ability. Make poor choices, and eventually the people will turn. Might take generations, but a mistreated population won't forget.

The 'Hero' has already fought the enemy at this point, and the entire reason they were brought into this world is because of the overall danger. As soon as the 'Hero' learned MC left the capital, he would know there was danger.

 

[gaigous]

@cor3zone My intended meaning was not that things are hopeless and to give up trying, but that a person will craft a solution according to what they view as the problem, and that solution will be further limited by various factors(available info and resources, their current circumstances, personal values, etc).

The duke's plan has flaws, I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise, but I do suggest reading up on chaos theory if you haven't already.

Now that I look at the replies, I see that @MolaCola got my meaning.

 

[cor3zone]

@gaigous Then you worded it poorly. I agree with your point now, but your earlier points were absolutes indicating nothing matters. Sorry if I seem rude, I have issues with expressing myself nicely.

Could you clarify which 'meaning' they got right? Is it about the 'perception' part? If so, we have a huge difference of opinion. The nukes were presented as 'just', but so was the Treaty of Versailles. Look what that resulted in. I'm somewhat of a logical idealist, with a historical perspective. I judge actions on their results, not their presentation or intention. The duke's plan failed in the end, and the potential cost was greater than the gain presented so far. Thus, it was the wrong choice. When I'm presented with new evidence, I might change my stance.

 

[gaigous]

@cor3zone Apparently so. Context matters, when I said reality won't conform to that expectation, I was referring to your expecting leaders to be able to make the best decision without regard for other factors, it struck me as childish and unreasonable. And no worries, you're a million times better at expressing yourself than what I see on Twitter.

Yeah, it was the part about perception, and of course, they were presented as 'Just', what victor would paint their cause as wrong or evil? These are world powers with an absurd number of lives in the balance. The "ends justify the means" can be a useful metric. If events did not play out as they did, I would either not have been born or I wouldn't be me as I am now, and I happen to enjoy life quite a bit, so as far as historical perspective goes, I take the good with the bad.

Spoiler

If you're going to judge The duke's plans by their results, his goal was for the country to continue past the conflicts to come, and it has up until the current volume of the LN, so you may very well do so.

 

[cor3zone]

@gaigous I don't expect leaders to be able to make the best decisons. Look at our current world leaders; pretty much all fools in one way or another. But for it to be 'right' I demand it.

To me, 'the ends justify the means' is only a useful excuse if you have cold, hard facts backing up the fact that it was the better outcome. Like your example of Hiroshima. I admit it might have been a necessary evil, based on the projected loss of life in a ground invasion. Nagasaki was not, in any way.

Spoiler

Did the duke have anything to suggest the country wouldn't last unless they used MC as bait? If so, I will reconsider. So far I only have allusions to a vague threat to go on. If he did literally anything else to bait the demons, like send soldiers, he could avoid the risk of the 'Hero' turning but still have pretty much the same expected result. As it stands, he risked making an enemy of not just one, but three (if you count the girl) superpowers.

 

[azerez]

lol how can the hero just forgive the general, this chapter is fucking retarded

 

[lazerus56]

the hero flipped way to fukin hard. At this point Im assuming that the author has this "hero" around as a fuking white knight meme. Cuz even white night chads are not this nieve/nice idk. nonsense.

 

[Reimans]

@azerez the general had nothing to do with the plan... he was just following orders, a rational and beneficial order for them there was no reason to be angry.

The only one at fault was the duke for make the plan without tell anything.

 

[gaigous]

@cor3zone I'm sure you understand how nebulous terms such as 'right' and 'wrong' are.

Here's my view: Anything can be justified, if a person says they don't consider something 'Just' they are stating that as an individual because they cannot speak for anyone but themselves.

I judge actions on their results, not their presentation or intention. The duke's plan failed in the end, and the potential cost was greater than the gain presented so far. Thus, it was the wrong choice.

This seems very close to an end justify the means mindset to me.

Hiroshima was something horrible that happened, it was a shitty situation, war always is, either way, I enjoy being me and so wouldn't change anything.

Spoiler

There are many powers at play in this series, it's different than the usual power scaling in these adaptations, Suimei and the summoned Heroes are weak, the Demon Queen and her round table could glass the planet without breaking a sweat, there are reasons why they don't. The Evil God and Alshuna don't care about the people living on the planet, they're cattle to be milked. The duke was given info by a mage from Suimei's world who was summoned as a hero in a past war, the demon queen is served by a mage from Suimei's world that was reincarnated by the evil god. The duke has likely already resigned himself to what will happen as things escalate.

 

[savris]

 

[cor3zone]

@gaigous Yes, I do. Which is why I wrote 'right' instead of just right. My view: if anything is justifiable, nothing is. I could murder and claim it's 'just', so any punishment would then be 'unjust'. We don't live as separate individuals, so 'justice' on a personal level is meaningless. 'Justice' can only exist as a consensus in a society. The only way to claim 'justice' on an individual level is to be an outlaw or hermit. Being an outlaw negates any claim of being 'just' in society, and being a hermit negates the need for 'justice'.

You're twisting words. I already said I don't have a problem with 'the ends justify the means', so long as it's backed by facts. The duke's 'ends' were neither reached nor worth the cost, judging by currently available information. Thus, his 'means' are not justifiable.

That's a pretty selfish attitude, but to each their own. I assume you are also ok with any current atrocities in the world then? They are, after all, a result of the same history which made a world with you in it.

Spoiler

That does not explain in the slightest why using MC as bait is the 'best' decision. There are huge powers that see you as an ant, so it's ok to risk everything your country has worked for just to gain a little time? BS.

Edit: sorry, just realized we're getting pretty off-topic. This isn't the place for this discussion. Feel free to DM me if you want to continue.😊

 

[savris]

Spoiler

Uh, Wasn't the one to be pulling that damn Duke's string was a so called "Ghost Hide" guy? Definitely not a hero from Suimei & Reiji's world but a real psychotic a-hole who can apparently attack you from a different dimension that necessitated Suimei and the other creme de la creme top rank magicians had to unite just to put him down? Then deux ex happened to send this psycho to this world to the demon's side just to further raise the stakes for Suimei to deal with?

And the damn duke has nothing to fear from the heroes since he's also kind of OP himself (of course, why not?) the he's already taken down one female hero and also recently this pretty boy hero with a nun for a sidekick (from latest LN, I think?) and has the means to put heroes under his (or his master's?) control (in order to also to later sacrifice said heroes in some ritual). Well, at least that's what I remember from the parts about the duke...

 

[TheBlueCat]

I think the author tried hard, but pairing such plot twists with such inconsistent and juvenile behaviour and mindsets is really making this manga lose its impact.

 

[gaigous]

@cor3zone Yeah, might as well continue in DMs.

 

[kilisloe]

@mahtan
I know how war go's. What I'm saying is, even if it's for the greater good it is still cruel. Think about how they're going to die. being tortured or ripped apart. The people who's in command may know they will die, but he won't know how they would die. It's cruelty plain and simple. Try explaining this decision to the family and other citizens. There would be trouble. No justification for sacrificing people who has NO knowledge of it.