Josei Danshi - Vol. 5 Ch. 32 - Last: Into the Sky So Vast

[smolbaka]

@nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv

Why do you care so much for this little detail.

They probably weren't all that too big about it anyway if they casually accepted there was a guy among them last chapter.

Grow up dude.

 

[diablo43]

@nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv

Did you ignore the bottom panel of that page? Kotori first asks if Pochi has a boyfriend because if "she" did then he would sometimes be in the club room watching them or whatever. In bottom-most panel, Kotori explicitly says that they hate men for their own reasons so a guy joining is a serious matter. There was no mention about empowering girls. Pochi only knows about empowering girls through Ageha while they were in the karaoke booth.

We actually do not know Tsubasa's or Kotori's motivation for being in the band. Yes, they also agree to make music for the sake of girls everywhere (Ch. 6 Pg. 20) but the actual backstory motivation for that is unknown. Like what arimarenji said, only Ageha was the one shouting the girl band for girls line when they were in the showers. The other two said sure thing. (Ch. 1 Pg. 13)

You are confusing their reasons for not accepting guys into the band (their backstory) as an actual motivation. However, I will concede that it can be an actual motivation for Ageha but she already accepted Pochi as a team member early in the story so that point is moot anyway. I just realized that they do not mention anything in chapter 30 or 31 about having a guy in the team because it doesn't matter to them if Pochi is in the band. The no boys rule was because they hated them. No other reason was stated by Tsubasa or Kotori. In dealing with situations like this, would you bring up things that didn't matter? Of course not.

Edit: You know, if the whole reason for the band existing was to empower girls as girls, why was there no mention of this to Pochi? Even the empowering girls part was never mentioned again. If it was a core ideology of the members, they should have at least mentioned it and at the very most tried to get Pochi in on the idea.

 

[nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv]

@smolbaka Wow, your comment was stupid. It just shows bad writing. And you're like herp derp, I'm going to make excuses for the author that never existed. Oh, it's a small detail because I say it is, herp derp.

@arimareiji I would've cited if someone first asked. If no one asks, then there's no point in me citing. It's not hard.

Tsubasa and Kotori accepted that statement and supported it. They may not have said it directly, but they very explicitly supported that statement. At least one of them shouts "SURE THING!" in response on that panel. Give me ANY other source of motivation for them. Anything. In the absence of anything else, that is the best explanation for motivation.

Why wait until now? Because Pochi's sex was only just revealed recently! His gender being incompatible with their goal was just revealed one chapter ago. Plus, I give the manga until the last moment to tie up loose ends. There are no more moments. It's the end, and the ends are loose.

@diablo43 Same thing. Even you have a citation that supports what I said. The clearest explanation for Tsubasa and Kotori's motivation is that they wanted music for girls by girls. Unless someone can give a better citation, all the evidence points this way.

Ageha did mention to Pochi the goal of the band. I can give a citation if you want, but as I explained above, no point if no one asks.

And if anyone still wants to say something like their motivation isn't clear, that's just a new reason for why the writing was bad. Despite them being MAJOR characters, the author either gave them initial motivation that was never addressed at the end or never explained their motivation properly. Either way, it is bad writing.

Everyone here is trying to excuse the author and say their motivation isn't what I'm saying it is. I've set up my case. All the evidence points this way. There is nothing else that was explained as a possible motivation.

 

[Chizan]

@nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv

Tsubasa and Kotori accepted that statement and supported it. They may not have said it directly, but they very explicitly supported that statement. At least one of them shouts "SURE THING!" in response on that panel.

That may as well be as vague a statement as "Sure, bro". Your insinuation that they explicitly supported it has no basis.

The clearest explanation for Tsubasa and Kotori's motivation is that they wanted music for girls by girls.

It would help your case if you provided any proof for that.

I've set up my case

What case?

All the evidence points this way.

What evidence? An offhand 'Sure, bro' doesn't count.

There is nothing else that was explained as a possible motivation

Just because you can't find anything else on the wooden floor, doesn't mean everything revolves around that single straw of hay in the corner...

 

[RC1138Boss]

Happy ending...*_*

 

[diablo43]

@nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv

I know Ageha told Pochi the goal of the band, at least her goal. However, Tsubasa and Kotori don't know that he knows. So, they should have said something about that when he first joined but they didn't. Just because they agreed with Ageha in chapter 1 during her rant in the showers does not mean they they are gung-ho about the whole music by girls for girls. Their response in chapter 6 to Pochi's voice just expresses their support of Ageha's goal. All you are up and arms about is what you see they do and say and didn't do or say. You are disregarding what isn't shown. This isn't a novel where each character's inner thoughts are spelled out.

Ageha got a chapter (Ch. 16) about how she got saved by music and wants to do the same for other girls. That same chapter even lays out her goal again (Ch. 16 Pg. 4). She wants to make music that can cheer the hearts of girls everywhere. Going back and reading chapter 3 where she told Pochi her goal, Ageha never once mentioned that the band can only be comprised of girls (Ch. 3 Pg. 11-12). Continuing on in chapter 4, when Ageha mentions the possibility of a guy joining the band, Tsubasa and Kotori never once outright denied the notion and were only concerned about Ageha going crazy and made some jokes (Ch. 4 Pg. 7-8).

And yes, please cite all your sources.

 

[nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv]

@Chizan Wow, that's really bad of you. You just want to reduce that to a "Sure, bro" statement. That's on you wanting to ignore it.

@diablo43
Anyone disagreeing is in a bind. Either the author wrote badly because they failed to explain very important motivations for two main characters or the author did explain the motivation but then just dropped the ball at the end with resolving those motivations.

Okay, let me say this. Is it unreasonable for me, as a reader, to think that Tsubasa and Kotori had the motivation of "music for girls by girls"? Is it unreasonable for a reader to think that's why they made a band? I think it is not. I think this is the most straightforward reading of the story. Given that, it looks lackluster to see that the author didn't address that at the end. That's the basic end of my position.

 

[arimareiji]

@Chizan That may as well be as vague a statement as "Sure, bro". Your insinuation that they explicitly supported it has no basis.

Not to mention that there's a vast gulf between "their goal", "their motivation for being in a band" (both claimed repeatedly)... and agreeing with someone's offhand comment, made in a moment of exuberance. By this logic, if someone yells "I like ice cream!" and I shout "Yeah!" in response, that proves I spend every waking moment plotting to get ice cream and if I ever eat anything else I'm a failure.

Just because you can't find anything else on the wooden floor, doesn't mean everything revolves around that single straw of hay in the corner...

Chekov's straw. XD

And it's not even true. There are repeated references to the other two being unwilling to accept a guy in the band because they hate guys.
4:7-9 Ageha suggests a guy joining and they joke about killing him or castrating him. She thinks "It's obvious they can't stand guys either!" - as opposed to "Of course! It would ruin our sole motivation of making a girl band to empower girls."
4:25 (Ageha to Pochi) "But... you're a guy, and both the other members of the band, Kotori and Tsubasa, hate guys... or rather, that's what makes us get along with each other..."
8:12 (Kotori to Pochi) "The three of us all hate men for various reasons, though. It'll be a serious matter if a guy joins us."

Funny thing is, if someone were to contend that the writer frequently paints themself into a corner and then just walks out, tracking paint everywhere? I'd agree. Specifically with respect to this subject, no less. The writer invents godawfully-contrived circumstances to doom Ageha's original plan (to get Kotori and Tsubasa to accept Pochi as a guy - which could never happen according to ghdjsdfskfgb, who somehow knows them better than Ageha) to failure. First <They both separately mistake him for a molester on the same day she's going to introduce him, but somehow find out the truth, but he doesn't know that>, then <They run into a stranger in their club room, suddenly decide to strip in front of 'her' not knowing it's Pochi, and snuggle him in their underwear>. (>_<)

(And that's not even mentioning the giant WTF? of Ageha flying to America and her parents don't care because reasons, running into caricatures of 'America is a crime-ridden wasteland' who are about to do awful things to her, fleeing into the one building in New York City she happened to be looking for, and learning the True Meaning of Music. Or anything about the super-loli megastar "Mikay".)

But "the writing is often contrived" would have been one thing, and "the writing specifically makes X their reason for existence" is another.

I don't even doubt that this could be part of Kotori and Tsubasa's motivations. It would make sense if there were any evidence for it. But in a manner reminiscent of "The Blind Men and the Elephant", huirsgheruitheriuds seized on this notion and decided that "This marvel of an elephant / Is very like a FAN!"

 

[nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv]

@arimareiji That was a whole lot of misdirection. At the very least, the ice cream example is massively flawed. Imagine someone shouts "I want to eat ice cream!" then another says "Yeah!". THEN, the second person goes along and actually gets and eats ice cream. The most natural conclusion is that the second person actually wanted to eat ice cream.

Here, it's not only the agreement with Ageha, although that provides the most explicit example. It's how they literally took actions that supported that statement. They formed a supposedly all-female band! They started playing music! In the absence of anything else, it is nonsense to think that's not their motivation when they literally said it in agreement and then took action supporting that.

And then you come in here trying to say their real motivation was what? What else was their motivation for [forming a band] specifically? Because they hate men? So it totally makes sense to join a band because you hate men. That's so contrived. You can hate men without joining a band.

And you make some offhand comment about me knowing Kotori and Tsubasa better than the author. That doesn't even make sense. I'm saying points that are very clear and generally agreed upon by everyone else. They made a band. They wanted to keep the band all female. Kotori and Tsubasa never had very strong characterization about why they specifically wanted to join a band. They expressed agreement with Ageha when Ageha said music for girls and by girls.

All of that is generally accepted because it's literally in the story. The only thing that people disagree with is my conclusion even though it literally flows out of what everyone agrees upon.

 

[diablo43]

@nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv

I never defended the author on their airtight story writing. There are areas where it could have been improved on but that is not the case with Tsubasa's and Kotori's motivation (because they were never mentioned). Their motivation for making the band was meaningless to the story as their backstory was only glanced over. However, Kotori's motivation was stated in chapter 21 where she want to make it big.

Okay, let me say this. Is it unreasonable for me, as a reader, to think that Tsubasa and Kotori had the motivation of "music for girls by girls"? Is it unreasonable for a reader to think that's why they made a band? I think it is not. I think this is the most straightforward reading of the story. Given that, it looks lackluster to see that the author didn't address that at the end. That's the basic end of my position.

Is this your way of admitting you were wrong? I will not defend you for you. I don't know what is in your head. Not all readers are the same. I, for one, and it looks like others too, do not agree with that though.

Edit:

I'm saying points that are very clear and generally agreed upon by everyone else. They made a band. They wanted to keep the band all female. Kotori and Tsubasa never had very strong characterization about why they specifically wanted to join a band. They expressed agreement with Ageha when Ageha said music for girls and by girls.

I don't agree with your points. They became friends through their common hatred of men. Ageha wants to write music to help girls everywhere and it so happens that Tsubasa and Kotori know the drums and bass(?), respectively. They bar men from joining the band because they all hate men. That, to me, is how they formed a band.

 

[nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv]

@diablo43 "There are areas where it could have been improved on but that is not the case with Tsubasa's and Kotori's motivation (because they were never mentioned)". If they were never mentioned, then that's a reason why the story could be improved upon. They are literally major characters in this story. Despite that, it's apparently okay to have them be basically empty and not have any motivation? That's bad writing in and of itself. "Their motivation for making the band was meaningless". Pause right there. If you admit that, then you're already admitting that a lot of this story was meaningless, and that is why it is bad writing.

I am not admitting I was wrong. I am saying that what I wrote is literally the most reasonable interpretation. I am saying that no one else has given anything that comes even close to being intelligible or even slightly reasonable. No one else has given any kind of explanation for the characters that amounts to any significant semblance of sense.

That, to you, is how they formed a band. Yeah, because that makes a hell of a lot more sense than what the characters literally said. I'm saying you are shoehorning in your interpretation when the story literally tells you straight up that they agreed with Ageha's plan to make music for girls by girls. How is this not clear? People are trying to invent other reasons that are literally never stated when they literally said why they wanted to make a band.

 

[diablo43]

@nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv

If they were never mentioned, then that's a reason why the story could be improved upon. They are literally major characters in this story. Despite that, it's apparently okay to have them be basically empty and not have any motivation? That's bad writing in and of itself. "Their motivation for making the band was meaningless". Pause right there. If you admit that, then you're already admitting that a lot of this story was meaningless, and that is why it is bad writing.

Just because they are major characters, does not mean they need to have their backstory shown. It is bad writing but it is not wrong writing. The lack of Tsubasa's and Kotori's motivation does not make most of the story meaningless as the story is centered on Ageha and Pochi. You claim that I shoehorn my interpretation into the story BUT you clearly have ignored the following:

Continuing on in chapter 4, when Ageha mentions the possibility of a guy joining the band, Tsubasa and Kotori never once outright denied the notion and were only concerned about Ageha going crazy and made some jokes (Ch. 4 Pg. 7-8).

Tell me how that fits into your narrative of the story. Where was the firm shut down of a guy joining the band. Nowhere to be found. Only concern for Ageha and jokes.

 

[arimareiji]

@iughdfijghdfsjkghdfsjklgh You address none of the points I made which disprove you, except by allusion and inaccurately. In a formal debate that would be game, set, and match.

Me: Ageha's original plan (to get Kotori and Tsubasa to accept Pochi as a guy - which could never happen according to ghdjsdfskfgb, who somehow knows them better than Ageha)
You: And you make some offhand comment about me knowing Kotori and Tsubasa better than the author.
In the first place, Ageha is not the author. She's the main girl character, Mr. Expert.
In the second place, you don't address the point I made that as of chapter 5, she thought Kotori and Tsubasa would accept Pochi as a guy - until the godawfully-contrived incidents the author created to make it impossible. According to your unsupported hypothesis, that would have been impossible - but again, somehow you know them better than Ageha does.

Last but not least, I never said they formed a band because X reason - that's your take, and your version of X is unsupported. If I had to specify a primary (not sole) reason, it looks like they wanted to form a band for its own sake. Since they agree that they all hate guys, they won't allow one in because (knowingly) working with a guy would make them quit.

 

[nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv]

@diablo43 You know what people call a story where major characters lack any significant characterization? People call it shallow. I never said wrong writing. You even admit here that it is bad writing, which means that you are in agreement with me.

As to the other part, 1) that is completely irrelevant to my point when they literally said themselves that they were in agreement with Ageha's goal. So what if they never outright deny it? That has nothing to do with it when they literally agreed with the goal of music for girls by girls. Also, 2) you want me to go into speculation? They knew Ageha was such a man hater that it seemed like a joke. Which is why they made jokes. Imagine if a hardcore vegan friend suddenly started talking about wanting to bring some hotdogs and burgers to the next meeting for vegans. You don't need to deny it. It is so absurd on the face of it that you can just make jokes about it. Or you could be concerned that there's something wrong with your friend.

@arimareiji Oh, please forgive me for not going line-by-line with your irrelevant words in this formal debate setting on a comment thread on Mangadex. Yeah, this is so bad of me.

If this were a formal debate, you would be booed for not even bothering to copy paste my username. Oh, so hard to click a few times. So hard.

And I don't need to address your points if they're irrelevant. You keep acting like what you said matters when it doesn't.

You don't address the fact that their words and actions literally support their desire to have a band to make music for girls by girls. That trumps anything else. So what if you think that Ageha thinks that Tsubasa and Kotori think that they'd be okay with a male band member? So many layers of interpretation, each of them possibly wrong. Also just irrelevant when they literally say they are in agreement with that goal.

Unsupported hypothesis. This is so sad. Literally their words and actions support what I said, but everyone else is like herp derp, no, they didn't actually want that.

 

[zia]

@JxDesign Hi there, sry i went missing till now, glad to hear that you like this manga and decided to taking the initiative to do the rest of the chapters so now it's end for good. Thanks for the chapters, i appreciate it, you did a good job imo

Spoiler

Also about me and muffinas, we were busy with "real life" as of late, also don't know when to release the rest of the chapters. Good thing is we are not a group or anything, we do this in our free time, because we like the manga, so yeah again i personally appreciate anyone who tried to help cause they also liked it. And hey it's also my first time doing, i can't even read japanese (I have to admit, that i think some of the translated words missing some context, or maybe i just think it's bad, so sometimes i change the words to suit the scene but never intend to alter their meaning)

In this absorduos amount of comments, i also feel sorry to not deliver as fast or promised when i realized there's lots of people actually waiting for the chapters and manga to end. But anyway, Now everything is done, and i find myself quite amused by amount of opinions and discussions about the manga, and still trying to read all of the comments.

Fun fact:
I don't know if anyone going to read this but, when i read and edit the manga it may absurd but i can't even imagine how or how tf cute male mc voice would like until youtube recommends me this good song:
youtube.com/watch?v=ucbx9we6EHk

Edit: Fixing some typo, oh yeah i also think the author deserve some support or credits for delivering this manga (it's not perfect but for whom find this manga amusing, maybe?)

 

[arimareiji]

@yfgudhrigkmakesthingsup Literally their words and actions

You've avidly told other people to produce evidence to tear down your hypothesis - no, fanon - and they have. You? You couldn't even be bothered to find the toss-off quote you twisted out of context into some Greater Purpose, I had to do it for you.

If "Literally their words and actions" support you, then it ought to be easy to find them instead of blustering endlessly about how you feel about it.

In analyzing a story, IDGAF what fanon you've made up in your head. I care about what the author actually wrote.

I've repeatedly given solid references to quotes that contradict you, and you've given nothing but your fact-free interpretations. It's long past time for you to put up or shut up.

Quote the story, with the page listed so we can verify you're not making things up again.

 

[nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv]

@arimareiji Again, pathetic that you can't even copy and paste. It just shows how childish you are.

The difference is that no one asked! Can you read at all? I said I'd provide citations if asked. No one asked. This is getting to be sad on your part that you can't even read.

Okay, you NOW have asked for a citation. How about the one previously given in chapter 1, page 8? How about the multiples ones given by diablo? Those are all citations that you ignored.

This is stupid as hell. Those examples have been in this thread for so long now, and you never responded. Meanwhile, you continue to make things up.

It's quite sad that you literally can't read and understand. And I bet in your response, you would just continue to be childish and fail to even copy and paste my username. Oh, wait, I've already called you out in two separate posts about it. So let's see how you continue to disappoint.

There's no point in me responding if all you do is hide and be childish. I'm not going to just check this thread for new replies when I don't have notifications. You're just too pathetic for me to waste my time on.

 

[arimareiji]

@rllylkestomakeshtup - The first thing I did was call you out for providing no cites.

Okay, you say I should look at "chapter 1 page 8". I did, and NOTHING ON THAT PAGE supports your fanon about the One Great True Purpose you made up for them (a Band Of Girls To Empower Girls Everywhere And That's Why No Guys Are Allowed). You're not just dishonest, you're ludicrous.

And yes, a lot of other people have provided cites. You? All you've done is cite an irrelevant page that I'm guessing you haven't even looked at. Here you go, here's the link since apparently even finding the 8th page of the manga was too hard for you.

 

[nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv]

@arimareiji You asked why I didn't provide cites. I answered that no one asked for them from me. You did not ask for citations then. Learn to read.

"You're just too pathetic for me to waste my time on."

 

[arimareiji]

So, what part of "chapter 1 page 8" do you think supports you? Why did you cite it?

Is it the sight of Kotori and Tsubasa in swimsuits being ogled by boys?
Is it when the boys say "Isn't this a grand gathering of hot chicks?"
Tell us, @ilktpllthngsoutfmbtt - what on that page supports your contention (that the reason Kotori and Tsubasa shouldn't have allowed Pochi into the band after knowing he's a guy, is because their One True Purpose has always been a Band Of Only Girls Because That Empowers Girls?