Josou shite Off-Kai ni Sanka shite mita. - Vol. 3 Ch. 55

[Thrembs]

The fun part in all of this discussion is that, while we may be assign something arbitrarily at birth, gender identity is not a neat bimodal distribution and neither is gender expression. The sooner that we stop trying to force binaries and particular expectations on expression, the better.

I mean… it’s just clothes and shit.
Fashion changes all the time.

Women wear trousers at least as often as skirts in my area.
There are many fashion trends that have involved makeup worn by men.

Times change, and IT’T JUST AESTHETICS. People should just do what they want.

High heels were men’s fashion originally. Also fancy hair/wigs and heavy makeup. I think the clothes back then were a bit much, but it was the equiv of bling.

 

[Jhonathan45]

Sky is needlessly offensive and agressive, but he's right here. As you yourself recognized translation is to do translate one language to one another making adaptions so that the original context can be brought over to a new audience who doesn't speak the original language. The translator can come and have "fun" with the translation, making alterations that don't fit the context and marely are included for personal gratification, but in doing that they forsake the quality of the translations, and we as audience have to acknowledge that this means that the translation is not accurate and or accurately conveys the original meaning of the work, what we get us nit translation, but a "fun" project of adaption. I won't go and say: "This is an offense to the author, an attack to Japan, Otokonoko works and real life crossdressers", but I will say that I will read the work translated by this translator with distrust and if possible will avoid them, because their job isn't being done in a serious or adequate way, which fine since this is fantranstalion, but people do have the right to complain about only getting the "fan" and "adaption" part and not the translation
Before someone comes: "But japanese doesn't use first person pronouns the same way, some Otokonoko use female pronouns for themselves" or even "drag and Crossdressing are similar/equal and Otokonoko is trans" I will say, repeating myself, that translation is making adaptions that bring the original intent of a work to a new language, if making the character be addressed with female pronouns makes reach conclusions opposite or different from the ones presented by the work, then this adaption is bad. I will even argue that's possible to bring female pronouns in this circumstance without warranting criticism, and this would be through more adaption and adéquation, like putting a male symbol at the side of the female pronouns or explaining in notes that the pronouns doesn't reflect gender identity, but gender expression.
On the Bridget thing, Sky isn't so wrong either, there's a lot of Otokonoko work being made with Bridget and popular Japanese memes where they treat Bridget as girl, big YouTubers from Asia made "it's a boy" jokes with Strives Bridget, this can be seen as negative by some, I see it as harmless headcanon who's merely respecting and playing with the original setting, but it's what's
Also the gender identity of the translator doesn't matter here.

 

[Jhonathan45]

The problem is when you tie specific aesthetic choices to specific identity you bring back gender norms and gender limitation. I think that what makes Sky so annoyed is because he clearly enjoys Otokonoko, and in present days it's common for people to say that they're girls and deny the masculinity and gender play of the characters. After saying so many people go and say "Otokonoko is just trans girls made by cowards" you get a little wary and annoyed.
(I do find it funny that those discussions came to exist in mangadex though, as through that this site was separated from that context of talks)

I mean… it’s just clothes and shit.
Fashion changes all the time.

Women wear trousers at least as often as skirts in my area.
There are many fashion trends that have involved makeup worn by men.

Times change, and IT’T JUST AESTHETICS. People should just do what they want.

High heels were men’s fashion originally. Also fancy hair/wigs and heavy makeup. I think the clothes back then were a bit much, but it was the equiv of bling.

 

[Thrembs]

The problem is when you tie specific aesthetic choices to specific identity you bring back gender norms and gender limitation. I think that what makes Sky so annoyed is because he clearly enjoys Otokonoko, and in present days it's common for people to say that they're girls and deny the masculinity and gender play of the characters. After saying so many people go and say "Otokonoko is just trans girls made by cowards" you get a little wary and annoyed.
(I do find it funny that those discussions came to exist in mangadex though, as through that this site was separated from that context of talks)

Eeeeh, they’re really nasty and rude. Actively transphobic (a trans woman coming out and the word trans being used and just “RAAAAAAAAGH”).
Are you saying you think transphobia is cool if it’s polite?

Did you ACTIVELY ignore all the shit I said about how Japanese and pronouns and “Opera” as a persona being about passing as a woman while in character? Well, go read it again and again.
Yeah, translation is best done with the audience in mind, but two of these characters are trying to pass as women. Characters of their own creation, but women. Why not use “she” to refer to “Cocoa” and “he” for “Satoshi”?
This isn’t Ikemen Joshi to Josou Danshi. In that, Iori uses mansculine speech patterns and pronoun regardless of how he’s presenting at a given moment. Someone using “she” there would offend me on multiple levels. Just thinking about it is pissing me off.

Another layer: “Cocoa”/Satoshi isn’t ready to funny accept all kind of stuff. That makes things all the more confusing.
“Opera” (rn escapes me) has his own stuff that would be spoilers.

There’s no reason to be upset about any pronouns. There’s none that could be used that I’d be totally happy with, because it’s not possible.
I think “they” is the most confusing option, and I’m glad it’s not used, but I’m not translating this FOR FREE. If there’s no good option, why not have fun switching them around whenever?
How many times do they say “I’m/we’re a man/men”? Many.
Hell, pronouns aren’t gender.
Men can use “she” if they want, women can use “they” on and on. Any combination with any given gender or pronouns or whatever.

ALSO.

Why are you talking about Bridget? Bridget isn’t relevant.
Bridget is a girl. If you don’t like it, then pretend she’s not, and stop talking about it.
There are TONS of things that I don’t accept in later iterations of media. I don’t really like that “Alien” got sequels, but it did.
I don’t go around saying that the later movies or extended media don’t exist.

“Some people think femboys should be trans” well, fuck them. That’s a terrible thing to say, I’ve seen it said, it sucks.
That’s not what’s happening here.

Stop complaining about things that aren’t happening.

 

[Jhonathan45]

Eeeeh, they’re really nasty and rude. Actively transphobic (a trans woman coming out and the word trans being used and just “RAAAAAAAAGH”).
Are you saying you think transphobia is cool if it’s polite?

Did you ACTIVELY ignore all the shit I said about how Japanese and pronouns and “Opera” as a persona being about passing as a woman while in character? Well, go read it again and again.
Yeah, translation is best done with the audience in mind, but two of these characters are trying to pass as women. Characters of their own creation, but women. Why not use “she” to refer to “Cocoa” and “he” for “Satoshi”?
This isn’t Ikemen Joshi to Josou Danshi. In that, Iori uses mansculine speech patterns and pronoun regardless of how he’s presenting at a given moment. Someone using “she” there would offend me on multiple levels. Just thinking about it is pissing me off.

Another layer: “Cocoa”/Satoshi isn’t ready to funny accept all kind of stuff. That makes things all the more confusing.
“Opera” (rn escapes me) has his own stuff that would be spoilers.

There’s no reason to be upset about any pronouns. There’s none that could be used that I’d be totally happy with, because it’s not possible.
I think “they” is the most confusing option, and I’m glad it’s not used, but I’m not translating this FOR FREE. If there’s no good option, why not have fun switching them around whenever?
How many times do they say “I’m/we’re a man/men”? Many.
Hell, pronouns aren’t gender.
Men can use “she” if they want, women can use “they” on and on. Any combination with any given gender or pronouns or whatever.

ALSO.

Why are you talking about Bridget? Bridget isn’t relevant.
Bridget is a girl. If you don’t like it, then pretend she’s not, and stop talking about it.
There are TONS of things that I don’t accept in later iterations of media. I don’t really like that “Alien” got sequels, but it did.
I don’t go around saying that the later movies or extended media don’t exist.

“Some people think femboys should be trans” well, fuck them. That’s a terrible thing to say, I’ve seen it said, it sucks.
That’s not what’s happening here.

Stop complaining about things that aren’t happening.

Your réponse didn't address anything, you ignored my comment about how you have to think about the audience and how this can be taken in the wrong way, which I stand by

You guys were discussing Bridget, I find it bad but accept, just enjoy that there's a lot of people in Japan who also do the same, ignore canon and keep the past

 

[Thrembs]

Your réponse didn't address anything, you ignored my comment about how you have to think about the audience and how this can be taken in the wrong way, which I stand by

You guys were discussing Bridget, I find it bad but accept, just enjoy that there's a lot of people in Japan who also do the same, ignore canon and keep the past

I did.
You have to think about the audience, and there’s no perfect choice to use when your audience uses a drastically different language that lacks the ability to be as ambiguous.
She has problems, he has problems.

I don’t feel like writing out spoilers, but HIS INTERNAL MONOLOGUE USING “SHE” MAKES SENSE, HAVING READ THE WHOLE THING. Geez.
”taken the wrong way?” “Opera” says “I’m a man” many times. COCOA/ SATOSHI is the one using “she”.

All the Bridget stuff was covered. Agreement was reached. You’re just rehashing it for no reason.
Wanna talk confusing pronouns? Bridget has always used a femme pronoun. Even before the writers decided the direction it was to go.
PRONOUNS ARE NOT GENDER.

Know your audience?
the only people reading a manga about cross-dressing, casually femme presentation and being trans (it is made clear who is which. Pay attention for half a second) who have a problem with this are angy and transphobic.
People with brains will know that this is a complicated, unconventional, and in this case silly situation. A man who has never been attracted to men is attracted to another man when said man is in drag. You think MAAAAAYBE he might have some confusion about gender???

”HOW DARE YOU USE THIS WORD IN A SITUATION THAT IS UNCONVENTIONAL AND CONFUSING! YOU ARE CLEARLY PART OF THE AGENDA! THEY’RE COMING FOR OUR MANGA AND BATHROOMS AND CHILDREN AND TRANSING THEM ALL BECAUSE THATS HOW ANYTHING WORKS!”

 

[Thrembs]

Something to add about how pronouns and gender are only somewhat connected.
I came across and irl full-time femboy* who uses all pronouns and responds to rumours of being trans with annoyed, firm denial. He’s a man. He presents femme, and doesn’t give a shit about pronouns, because they don’t matter to who he is. Some people care, others don’t.

*There was a hilarious meme involving him, I looked into his ish on YouTube, and his content was so banal and uninteresting and watching what I did destroyed my YouTube algorithm with femboy content in my suggestions, in which I am not super interested in, as I am not interested in things targeted at said group. Not relatable. 🤷‍♀️ Only took a day for it to go back to normal, though.