Kanojo, Okarishimasu - Vol. 20 Ch. 175 - The Girlfriend and the Sigh

[arimareiji]

@Sekijou23: We just saw that he's still in full Pedestal / Self-Abnegating mode.

I know a girl like her would never date scum like me! The audacity to think we should be together... I'm so shameless!
But it's hopeless! For scum like me? It's completely hopeless!

Not to mention all the "You're my Perfect Girlfriend / Wife / Etc" he just expressed and fantasized about, which Chizuru correctly calls out as putting her on an idealized pedestal.

Every time he takes a hesitant step, inching forward, he immediately runs back at full speed because I Can't Upset Her Or She'll Hate Me. Which is something else called out in the above quotes.

 

[WhisCalifa69]

@arimareiji what differs Kazuya from the thing you say about the full pedestal/self abnegating mode, is that Kazuya, as of mow, went past that phase and now is really open, serious and vocal towards Chizuru about his "idealization", and he discovered along the way Chizuru has some flaws, some of them fatal ones to be fair, but y'know what? He gives zero shits about that because he loves the hardworker Chizuru. Nice guys, afaik, always save said idolization to themselves or express it in a borderline awkward, if not autistic way.

That diatribe is almost obsolete, at least in Kazuya's case. And himself doesn't consider himself a nice guy, neither sees himself as a love martyr, but as an asshole-ish piece of shit who only hurts people and himself with his personality.

If i understood correctly from thst interview, Reiji himself said his characters are somewhat a reflex of his communication deficit disorder (i think he tried to sugarcoat the fact he's somewhere inside the lowest quarter of the autistic spectrum), especially Kazuya. Kazuya overcoming slowly said issues is what makes Chizuru see him in a diametrically different way from the beginning. In the end, everything is about communication.

 

[oderflamund]

@arimareiji I completely agree with the "Nice Guys" bit. It explains the insecure male personae in simple terms. It's a realization that can take some, years and others may never achieve it. The key is self-respect and self-esteem. Kazuya has very little of either and that is why a lot of guys relate to him. I'm an old man (50+. Yes, I know, I know, why do I read manga at my age?!? Why not!). Hanging out in bars in my youth, I've seen my share of guys that were average-looking, sweet talk drop dead gorgeous girls into their bed. I've also seen the converse, handsome guys not able to score at all because of their insecurity. It all boils down to a simple fact: if you are afraid to win then you set up yourself up to lose and blame something or someone else for your failure or... even worse, you do not even try! Confidence is hard to build and is easily shattered. Let's see how Mami further shatters Kazuya's confidence!

 

[startwindowsnormally]

@WhisCalifa69

Once again, comment is collapsed for other's viewing pleasure.

Spoiler

> "What a roundabout and not direct at all way to say you want Ruka to be with him."
Yes, that was my point.
> "Kazuya wants somebody who could push him to do things better and improve himself, not somebody who basically is his straightforward cheerleader"
Sounds like either Sumi or Ruka, Chizuru just exists and dosen't directly challenge him.
> "[Ruka is a] shallow girl who initially only wants coochie for her heartbeats."
This is a weak argument, and supports itself about as well as a wet piece of paper, please avoid using this argument, it weakens your other points which will most likely hold valid critiques.

I took the time to listen to the songs, didn't know they existed until now. I plan on never listening to them again, and I would be hard pressed to call them "songs", they hurt my ears, my brain, just wow. I'm sure there's people that enjoyed them, but I am not among them. Adressing Ruka's song, the first third is creepy/uncomfortable, the other two-thirds are super sweet and genuinely caring, contrary to your claim that Ruka's love is shallow. What's shallow is Chizuru not caring about Kazuya until he risked his life to save her, then, all of a sudden, she begins to want him. Chizuru's song is carries zero substance other than perhaps alluding to her wanting to lend a should for him to lean on. Mami's song was basically her being a villian, Sumi's was about wanting to improve herself.

As for the movie where Ruka's heart rate increased, I believe that was Ruka realizing that having Kazuya in her life didn't mean warm, fuzzy feeling about him only, but that through him, there was an untold world of wonders and excitement to discover. As for Rukas chances with Kazuya, and am not fooled into believeing that she has a great chance, I think even Mami has a better chance than Ruka. However, looking at it objectively, and with assumption that Kazuya could fall in love with any of the woman, Ruka x Kazuya provides the best possible outcome as well as the most overall happiness for each of the characters.

 

[startwindowsnormally]

@arimareiji
Finally, somebody else that get's it. Chizuru is just not good for him in terms of being a lover, but I do believe they should date for a short time that way Kazuya can have the cathartic release from reaching for that "green light" in the distance, and attribute to himself some worth, instead of attributing that worth to who he is with at the time. Then he can realize that what he could have with Ruka is special, and fulfilling.

 

[ThatsSoLove]

@arimareiji
YES! YES! AND YES! Kazuya sticking with Chizuru has been a trainwreck. Theres this slow progression between the two that doesnt feel natural nor appealing. Its one thing if the relationship starts off slow and finds a positive pace to go at but this is starting slow and continuing to be slow. Chizuru for the longest time has also been allowing herself to continue to reap the benefits from him, which he cant stop because hes too nice and a giant puss, and kept allowing him to spend all the money he got just to see her instead of understanding and accepting the situation. Kazuya was told to basically move on and whatever back when ruka and him worked together, he immediately accepts this and actually musters up the strength to go tell Ruka hes ready for a relationship between them, which is obviously stopped because he cant handle seeing other girls pop up in his life. At this point its definitely evolved from that point but its still this insecure nice guy trying to chase this fantasy. He has feelings for all of these girls yet refuses to act on them in a reasonable timeframe. Its 175 chapters in and its like the lid is about to open again. Dude legit would have a relationship by now with Ruka if he wasnt such a cancer.

 

[S0viet_Noob]

Those in the comments, you are forgetting the reason they still even know each other. It's because of the situation they put themselves in with their Grandparents. If anything, they shouldn't even know each other. Ruka shouldn't know him either, because if he never had to see Chizuru like that again, he'd never get in a situation with Ruka, Chizuru, or even Sumi at that point. It's not as simple as "leaving toxic Chizuru who can't help him at all for Ruka who can change his life within 75 more chapters somehow." Some of you (not talking about the intelligent ones) even forgot that Ruka forced herself into Kazuya's life. If Ruka didn't do that, half of you wouldn't be here talking about this.

 

[S0viet_Noob]

Ruka reminds me of that basic main girl that has nothing going for her and isn't interesting, which is why the other girls could get a series of their own. All she does, aside from the movie, is keep nagging at Kazuya for shit he shouldn't have even agreed to. How many of actually want Ruka to be with Kazuya? Or do you just feel bad about Ruka's development and wish the best for her character?

 

[Sekijou23]

@S0viet_Noob you'd be surprised at the people who ships her with kazuya and often justify it with the fact Ruka's open about it. They wouldn't praise her if the genders were reverse given these were the same people that condemner kazuya for stalking chizuru one time yet won't hold ruka to the same standard.

 

[S0viet_Noob]

@Sekijou23 people just have these unreal expectations from Ruka, for no reason whatsoever. Hold her at some high, that she has a chance of being with Kazuya. They just want Kazuya to say "It started out rough, she blackmailed me. But as the time passed, we found good things about each other, and pursued them to the fullest." I'm frankly tired of the support for Ruka because if the roles were reversed, not all but some people would call it downright creepy. It's kind of stupid.

 

[startwindowsnormally]

@S0viet_Noob
One of my major gripes with Chizuru is that she's bland. She lacks initiative, no intuition, yet she receives the prestigious title of FMC, lacks character progression, and actively sabotages the MC's character development, but she doesn't have to be bland. Chizuru is limited by the story she is in, without Ruka or Kazuya being prominent characters, her character could be allowed to reach its potential. I don't want Reiji to blue ball the Chizuru shippers completely, that's why I believe the path to a healthy Ruka x Kazuya relationship beings with Chizuru and Kazuya dating for a bit. Ruka x Kazuya could still happen, Chizuru and Kazuya's relationship started out quite rough, doesn't mean it'll happen but don't discount it 100% yet.

@Sekijou23
I really hate the double standard that Ruka and Chizuru stans exhume. Ruka stans are willing to either ignore her faults, or overlook them and ignore the feeling of Chizuru fans. On the otherside, Chizuru stans are much veracious in their attacks, and ignore her multiple severe flaws, while ignoring Ruka fans feelings. Either accept all parties involved have their sins, or ignore all parties sins.

 

[Sekijou23]

@startwindowsnormally Now that i think about it, Chizuru stans worships the fuck out of to the point where they start acting liking she doesn't have any human flaws and just relegate her to waifu of the month yet will bitch about Kazuya doing the same thing. They refuse to accept that Chizuru herself prior to the new chapters hasn't developed neither and does nothing but make excuses for her just because to them, she's a goddess that can do no wrong and kazuya's leading her on instead of the fact she hasn't put her own efforts in reaffirming her feelings in the beginning and let ruka terrorize him.
"But Kazuya stalked her that one time so it's okay when we worship her."

 

[Revenant62]

This manga will turn out completely to my liking if:

-Kaz and Mizuhara work everything out, marry, live happily ever after and have some nice kids.
-Ruka goes to prison for blackmailing the wrong dude, or at the very least gets recruited into the yakuza
-Mami dies horribly after getting run over by a drunk driver who was driven to total despair by his evil, conniving, scheming wife.
-Sumi marries into the Japanese royal family after being noticed by the Emperor's son, the prince.
-Fish-kun gets a large tank all to himself and a double portion of fish food

 

[S0viet_Noob]

@startwindowsnormally You make it sound like Ruka is the only contender since Chizuru is oh so bad...
Now don't get me wrong, it's free to have opinions and I respect yours, but if Chizuru is that bad, Kazuya could literally go and search for anybody else besides Ruka.

I don't see the relationship being healthy at all. Sure, Ruka has feelings, but what is Kazuya supposed to do? Date her out of pity? It sounds like "Chizuru bad so Ruka is the second best option, instead of wanting Ruka to genuinely win. At this point, I want Ruka to get Tachibana'd hard

 

[redwolf6056]

People in these comments really actin like Chizuru and Kazuya haven't made any progress in overcoming their own massive character flaws and insecurities. No accounting for subtext or nuance or anything not explicitly stated in Kazuya's (really fucked up) headspace. Both lead characters are shockingly realistically flawed and this slow burn of overcoming those shortcomings is what makes this series so captivating. People still projecting onto Kazuya like he is some blank slate typical harem MC, stay mad.

 

[S0viet_Noob]

@redwolf6056 Thank you. These comments made me realize I'm terrible at forming my vocabulary into practical sentences.

 

[Sekijou23]

@redwolf6056 Plus people here complaining about kazuya 24/7 seems to not understand that people irl don't change overnight and it'd be unrealistc if he acted like say... a chad mc because the story' d be over by chapters.

 

[otakukc]

someone get this useless dumbfuck some guts

 

[startwindowsnormally]

@Sekijou23
I'm glad we can agree that stans, regardless who they are for, detract from the person they wish to support.

 

[startwindowsnormally]

@S0viet_Noob
>"You make it sound like Ruka is the only contender since Chizuru is oh so bad..."
I never said that Chizuru is bad, I've said she is bad for Kazuya as a romantic partner. I've also said, albeit in a round-about way, Ruka is everything Kazuya wants, just not WHO he wants. I'm going to collapse my train of thought down in a spoiler, so that other people don't have to scroll through what ever long typed out dribble I post.

Spoiler

My opinion on who should be with Kazuya is based off of "critical factors for happiness", basically what is essential for a character to achieve fulfillment/happiness in life, and the idea that I would like to maximize every character's happiness. Listed below is what I consider each persons critical happiness factors based on what I've observed throughout the series.
a. Kazuya
1. Have a romantic relationship with a girlfriend/fiancé/wife
2. Have this special person reciprocate his feeling, and mirror the level of passion/affection
3.Have this person accept him for who he is
4. Have a large family
5. Dedicated and emotionally available/intelligent
6. Support Chizuru in her future endeavors
b. Mami
1. Have the ability to lead Kazuya on, just in case she ever decides to fall in love with him, or if she needs a shoulder to lean on
2. Get revenge on Chizuru, Ruka, and Kazuya for standing up to her
3. Drive away the other woman
c. Chizuru
1. Become a great actress on par, or exceeding that of her Grandma
2. Improve herself
3. Maintain a relationship with Kazuya
d. Ruka
1. Acquire Kazuya's love
2. Become a girlfriend/fiancé/wife/mother to Kazuya
3. Support Kazuya in his endeavors
e. Sumi
1. Improve herself
2. Overcome her social anxiety
3. Help others
4. Maintain a relationship with Kazuya

I then pair this with how many "critical factors for happiness" could Kazuya x [insert name] fulfill in a list below.
a. Kazuya x Mami
Mami has the capacity to fulfill the requirements for being a significant other, as well she has expressed a desire to have a large family, but you're a fool if you think Mami will be faithful to Kazuya, or accept him for who he is.
Mami fulfills Kazuya's 1 & 4 requirements
b. Kazuya x Chizuru
Chizuru fulfills a lot of Kazuya's requirements, but due to fairly incompatible personalities and Chizuru's line of work, not all requirements will be met. Chizuru will need to travel frequently to be a famous actress, meaning Kazuya will not be able to take over the family business, nor will he be able to have a large family, at least not unless Chizuru gives up on her actress dreams. Even then Chizuru does not display affection the way Kazuya needs, this will cause him to cling to her even more, and at some point, her independent personality will need to push him away, leaving him to feel rejected. Chizuru would allow Ruka to hang around, and would encourage Kazuya to maintain his friendship with Sumi. Chizuru would also try to extend an olive branch to Mami, but I don't see that lasting.
Chizuru fulfills Kazuya's 1, 3, & 6 requirements (may fulfill requirement 2 as well)
c. Kazuya x Ruka
Ruka fulfills all of Kazuya's requirements for happiness. The more she can be there for Kazuya the happier she is. She is affectionate, emotionally intelligent (something rare for this series), emotionally available, and would even allow Kazuya to support Chizuru in her future endeavors, and would lend a hand to help Chizuru. Ruka would allow Kazuya to keep up with Sumi, but would not allow Mami anywhere near Kazuya. In addition, Ruka has displayed an strong sense of perception, intuition, and is a shrewd negotiator, making her of value to the Kinoshita family business. Ruka has also expressed great interest in starting a family.
Ruka fulfills Kazuya's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6 requirements.
d. Kazuya x Sumi
Sumi almost fulfills all of Kazuya's requirements, and those that she does fulfill, she excels in. Sumi is super smart, and would make an invaluable asset to Kazuya's family business. Sumi is a hard worker, and with Kazuya by her side, would overcome her only weakness, her crippling social anxiety. Her only drawback is that she seems too reserved, conservative perhaps, and may not desire any children, although she would likely compromise with Kazuya and have a single child.
Sumi fulfills Kazuya's 1, 2, 3, 5, & 6 requirements

Operating under the assumption that Kazuya falls in love with whoever he is paired with, along with the goal of maximizing overall happiness in all characters, Ruka becomes the best choice.