Koibito Swap - Vol. 2 Ch. 7

[DeadToReal]

The point I'm making here is that she doubled down the lying and if she could get away with it, then remorse be damned, she would keep lying if she weren't caught. She is remorseful, but only after she was caught. She kept lying, engaged even in manipulation and acting like a victim and feigned ignorance.
As I said before, she would keep dancing around these lies if she could. she would feel a bit sorry, but she would show no signs of true remorse, like apologizing to the MC for cheating, if she got away with it. She WILL keep lying if the MC didn't confront her. Girl might even frame the child his child from the looks of it as well if she got pregnant by her previous cheating partner .

EDIT: added more bold fonts to keep the point clear and edited some stuff. Key point here is if she's truly remorseful, or is it more because she got caught and suffering the consequences, and all the evidence points to the latter. Anyway not planning to make a paper out of this lol

EDIT2: Added some points about remorse and suffering the consequences and some more bold fonts for the points.

EDIT3: Also this point

Yep, though any communication is better, even a break up is better. Instead he was more like a backup, even tried to dump the pregnancy issue to him and tried covering it up and the cheating with lying. That is not a remorseful behavior at all.

I would say that Kayo is remorseful she lost her savior/meal ticket than actually regretting the cheating. She even admitted that she didn't regret sleeping with Iketani in middle school.

At this point, we are just splinting hairs on the definition of regret. You and I agree that Kayo's apology is not actually genuine. Let's just agree that Kayo is a horrible person and that MC was right in refusing to get back with her. MC already has a better girl in the form of Kotone.

 

[jimmylee]

This girls reason was because he looked cool playing basketball? Lol she caved to him before he even laid eyes on her. It was almost like her main objective was to cheat instead of it just happening. As well as the fact that she’s sorry she got caught not that she cheated

 

[DeadToReal]

The timing of it makes her words lack sincerity. If no such thing transpired (her being pregnant), I don't think Kayo would even bother apologizing nor give Yuusuke attention. Those words lack sincerity when you know there is a motive behind it.

If she said the same words before she discovered she's pregnant or become aware what Iketani had done, I would buy it.
If she cut off her ties with Iketani before she confessed to the MC, I would buy it.
If she didn't wait until the MC started ignoring her and said those words, I would buy it.
If she came open about her past relationship with Iketani when she started dating the MC, I would buy it.
If she didn't actively avoid the MC and still gave him the attention while she was cheating, I probably still would buy it.

Accepting Kayo's words as is has the same energy as watching Kayo shout "I only love Yuusuke, not Iketani!" to the whole world while she makes out with Iketani in front of MC.

As I told another person: Kayo is only remorseful she lost her savior/meal ticket than actually regretting the cheating. She even admitted that she didn't regret sleeping with Iketani in middle school. Kayo is a horrible person. But that does not mean Kayo did not actually have real feelings towards MC.

You have a point. She may be unsure about her feelings toward Iketani, not just MC. Her love for them might be both superficial for all we know. However, it doesn't matter because the fact that she paid more attention to Iketani means she favored him more in one way or another. After all, action speaks louder than words. It would've been difficult to justify if her actions weren't biased towards one side only. But as we've seen, her avoiding the MC was intentional and that says something. Regardless, whatever the answer to your question is, what Kayo feels towards Iketani, for the MC it is irrelevant. To MC, Kayo never paid him attention and he is nothing but a backup.

I don't think Kayo ever saw MC as a backup when they first started dating when they first started high school. I think it just ended up that way when Kayo started having sex with Iketani again. You say that actions speak louder than words, but Kayo originally refused Iketani when she was dating MC. It was only later that Kayo finally gave in and started cheating.

Kayo's relationship with MC was doomed from the start. They were childhood friends that were basically like siblings, suddenly having to relearn to be lovers. Things might have worked out of both were struggling through the same thing at the same time, but that wasn't what happened. Kayo was already very experienced in dating and sleeping with someone that was also very experienced. It would be like competing as a professional, then suddenly pretending to be a complete amateur. Kayo would always be comparing MC to Iketani and always be left feeling disappointed.

It wasn't that Kayo wasn't interested in MC. It was that Kayo and MC were on two completely different levels. Kayo was always going to feel disappointed with MC.

Sure, though it's unclear whether it occurred after he started making advances on Kayo again. It was around the same time MC confessed too. When Iketani told Kayo that he couldn't forget her, that was the time she started on cheating. So there isn't proof she actively resisted her urges.

Manga made it clear: Kayo broke up with Iketani in middle school. MC asks out and starts dating Kayo at the beginning of high school. Iketani pursues Kayo to restart their relationship. Kayo initially refuses and stays loyal to MC. Eventually, Kayo gives in after some time and starts cheating with Iketani.

 

[DeadToReal]

This girls reason was because he looked cool playing basketball? Lol she caved to him before he even laid eyes on her. It was almost like her main objective was to cheat instead of it just happening. As well as the fact that she’s sorry she got caught not that she cheated

They met at a middle school basketball tournament before Kayo ever started dating Iketani. Iketani was the handsome star basketball player and Kayo was single at the time. The problem is everything else that came after.

Iketani destroyed her chances of ever having a real relationship with MC. With Iketani imprinted on Kayo's mind, inexperienced MC didn't have a chance because MC would always be compared with Iketani... and always fall short. It's literally dating an experienced athlete, then dating a normal, inexperienced amateur. Kayo's expectations were completely wrecked by Iketani and just set way too high.

 

[Oobaka-san]

The spoilers about the MC's family siding with Kayo because of the pregnancy made my blood boil, hope all the family apologizes to the MC with a full dogeza.

What would you really expect? Imagine if you were in their position. If your son was dating a sweet cutie who's been playing with him since diapers, then suddenly he doesn't see her for a while and says a bunch of empty generalities whenever asked, and then that girl's parents show up with a pregnancy test, what are you going to think? Are you going to think maybe this sweet girl has been sleeping around and is now trying to force your son to raise someone else's kid, or are you going to think your son's odd behavior and vagueness was because he didn't want you to know that he cut ties with his girlfriend after getting her pregnant?

I do agree that they should apologize afterward, but there's really no way they wouldn't jump to such conclusions even without the little sister seeing what she saw. And honestly I kind of like that, especially with the apologetic behavior after. I really enjoy characters saying and doing things that seem possibly a little extreme but overall appropriate, only to learn that their preconceptions were incorrect and the truth makes their actions cruel and simply awful, and then responding to this knowledge with an appropriate demonstration of shame and remorse. I don't know, it's just something I like to see.

 

[ynt311]

Kayo is a horrible person. But that does not mean Kayo did not actually have real feelings towards MC.

I don't think Kayo ever saw MC as a backup when they first started dating when they first started high school.

I don't disagree with this, she accepted dating the MC after all. Yes, she loved him at the start, we both agree on that. The problem is, you assume that feelings don't change over time, no matter what she does, and say she still hold the same feelings at the start. But I don't think it is the same when Iketani entered her life once more.

That was my point from the start: She already lost interest in MC. Her longing for him now is only a result of the pregnancy which she didn't want to have.

I don't think Kayo ever saw MC as a backup when they first started dating when they first started high school.

You missed my words. It was MC who felt that way, not Kayo. Kayo stopped paying attention to him when she accepted Iketani. She was too focused on Iketani to have such thoughts while MC was just "there".

I think it just ended up that way when Kayo started having sex with Iketani again.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I interpret that statement as "Kayo's feelings for MC changed WHILE she was already having an affair with Iketani". As if to say, it didn't change yet when she just cheated for the first time or when she just decided to do but not have done it yet. As if to say, she didn't have strong feelings towards Iketani to decide to accept him but still decided to have sex regardless.

It is precisely that she didn't hold those same feelings for MC that easily accepted Iketani. As Napolitan explains, MC is like a property and "air" to Kayo. Kayo needs MC to breathe. Whatever Kayo does, MC accepts, MC forgives. Kayo does not need to reciprocate. We need air to breathe but that doesn't necessarily make us "love" it the same way we love our favorite things.

You say that actions speak louder than words, but Kayo originally refused Iketani when she was dating MC. It was only later that Kayo finally gave in and started cheating.

So the initial refusal at the time makes her "actions speak louder than words" despite her eventually giving in? If her actions really spoke louder than her words, she would avoid seeing him altogether and consulted with the MC, her boyfriend, about her troubled past. But why didn't she do that? If she could refuse at one time, why did she instead choose to cave in to her desires?

If MC is "the only one she needed", why didn't she call onto him for help especially during the time when their relationship was at stake? Now you see why those words lack sincerity when she conveniently used them only to overturn her situation.

Manga made it clear: Kayo broke up with Iketani in middle school. MC asks out and starts dating Kayo at the beginning of high school. Iketani pursues Kayo to restart their relationship. Kayo initially refuses and stays loyal to MC. Eventually, Kayo gives in after some time and starts cheating with Iketani.

You are right on this. My initial assumption was that Iketani approached him at start of high school but got ignored because she started dating the MC then it was only after some the time when she started admiring Iketani again that Iketani continued wooing her again.

It wasn't that Kayo wasn't interested in MC. It was that Kayo and MC were on two completely different levels. Kayo was always going to feel disappointed with MC.

So what was that "interest"? When did it show? If she was so disappointed with the MC, why did she not break up and instead choose to cheat? To me, it just sounds like she wasn't even interested enough to care about breaking up if we go by this statement.

Kayo's relationship with MC was doomed from the start. They were childhood friends that were basically like siblings, suddenly having to relearn to be lovers.

Yet Kayo failed to understand MC's feelings? Sounds like she needs to relearn being a childhood friend/sibling as well. Sure, siblings/friends don't necessarily understand each other well. So if being lovers failed and so did being friends, where is the "love"?

Kayo was already very experienced in dating and sleeping with someone that was also very experienced. It would be like competing as a professional, then suddenly pretending to be a complete amateur.

Yet Kayo cheated and failed to break up with MC? And you say she's very experienced? More like experienced at sex.

 

[DeadToReal]

I don't disagree with this, she accepted dating the MC after all. Yes, she loved him at the start, we both agree on that. The problem is, you assume that feelings don't change over time, no matter what she does, and say she still hold the same feelings at the start. But I don't think it is the same when Iketani entered her life once more.

That was my point from the start: She already lost interest in MC. Her longing for him now is only a result of the pregnancy which she didn't want to have.

I am saying the nature of her love changed. It started as romantic love when they were first dating. It eventually changed into something more like familial love (childhood friends since birth) and the comfort of being a provider (love of possession).

Kayo may no longer be in romantically in love with MC but Kayo still loves MC like a warm, comforting family member.

You missed my words. It was MC who felt that way, not Kayo. Kayo stopped paying attention to him when she accepted Iketani. She was too focused on Iketani to have such thoughts while MC was just "there".

I said that Kayo and MC were actually serious about their relationship in the beginning. Just because Kayo later changed her mind does not take away how they both felt when they first started their relationship. Kayo has always view MC as the person she intended to marry and start a family with. This never changed, even when she started cheating. And if you are thinking this doesn't make sense: plenty of women actually do this in real life.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I interpret that statement as "Kayo's feelings for MC changed WHILE she was already having an affair with Iketani". As if to say, it didn't change yet when she just cheated for the first time or when she just decided to do but not have done it yet. As if to say, she didn't have strong feelings towards Iketani to decide to accept him but still decided to have sex regardless.

It is precisely that she didn't hold those same feelings for MC that easily accepted Iketani. As Napolitan explains, MC is like a property and "air" to Kayo. Kayo needs MC to breathe. Whatever Kayo does, MC accepts, MC forgives. Kayo does not need to reciprocate. We need air to breathe but that doesn't necessarily make us "love" it the same way we love our favorite things.

Kayo never cheated with anyone in middle school. Kayo and MC never dated in middle school, so how could Kayo cheat on MC? Kayo was scummy for being with Iketani while had feelings for MC. But as long as they were never in a relationship, it is not cheating.

Kayo was attracted to Iketani and loved having sex with him. Kayo broke up with Iketani because she realized she loved MC. Kayo even admits it in this chapter. The reason why Kayo eventually cheated is because Kayo was spoiled from being with Iketani. MC is your typical nice guy that is inexperienced in dating. He loved Kayo, but was afraid of pushing her boundaries and accidentally hurting her. This is why MC was so indecisive and why MC would fail in comparison to Iketani.

So the initial refusal at the time makes her "actions speak louder than words" despite her eventually giving in? If her actions really spoke louder than her words, she would avoid seeing him altogether and consulted with the MC, her boyfriend, about her troubled past. But why didn't she do that? If she could refuse at one time, why did she instead choose to cave in to her desires?

If MC is "the only one she needed", why didn't she call onto him for help especially during the time when their relationship was at stake? Now you see why those words lack sincerity when she conveniently used them only to overturn her situation.

Why are you blowing off Kayo initially rejecting Iketani? This is huge! Because it shows that there really was something between Kayo and MC. If Kayo just accepted Iketani's advances without rejecting him, that would completely change everything about MC and Kayo's relationship. It would show that Kayo never actually felt anything for MC the whole time. This chapter shows that is not actually true. Kayo herself admits that she truly did care for MC. Novel Kayo may have been a sociopathic bitch that never cared about MC, but this discussion is about manga Kayo.

So what was that "interest"? When did it show? If she was so disappointed with the MC, why did she not break up and instead choose to cheat? To me, it just sounds like she wasn't even interested enough to care about breaking up if we go by this statement.

Cheaters cheat instead of breaking up with their lovers for many reasons. I do not know why Kayo never broke up with MC and it does not matter. Kayo cheated. And her interest in MC was clearly something strong enough that Kayo felt it was worth leaving Iketani for MC back in middle school.

Yet Kayo failed to understand MC's feelings? Sounds like she needs to relearn being a childhood friend/sibling as well. Sure, siblings/friends don't necessarily understand each other well. So if being lovers failed and so did being friends, where is the "love"?

Yet Kayo cheated and failed to break up with MC? And you say she's very experienced? More like experienced at sex.

There's a reason why teenagers are considered children and not adults. Everyone involved are either 14 or 15 at most. They are not even close to being adults yet. Is it really hard to imagine that a young teenager wouldn't seriously think about and understand people relationships and emotions?

You really think Iketani is only good at having sex? Iketani dated Kayo in middle school and now managed to steal Kayo from MC in high school. Iketani is completely different from MC and Kayo experienced this difference first hand. Literally and figuratively.

 

[ynt311]

Cheaters cheat instead of breaking up with their lovers for many reasons. I do not know why Kayo never broke up with MC and it does not matter.

It matters knowing when you make the claim the Kayo still loves the MC.

Kayo never cheated with anyone in middle school. Kayo and MC never dated in middle school, so how could Kayo cheat on MC? Kayo was scummy for being with Iketani while had feelings for MC. But as long as they were never in a relationship, it is not cheating.

Allow me to clarify my words. When I said for the "first time" it is the "first time she cheated when she was already dating the MC", not the time she interacted with Iketani in middle school.

And her interest in MC was clearly something strong enough that Kayo felt it was worth leaving Iketani for MC back in middle school.

As I've pointed out before, she did NOT leave Iketani in middle school for MC. They were physically separated so there was no chance for them to date at all. Iketani just moved to the same area as her in high school that's why they met again. There was no "Kayo choosing MC over Iketani". During the time Kayo and Iketani got into a physical relationship, MC was still just a childhood friend to Kayo.

I think you're under the impression that Kayo, back in middle school, already had romantic feelings for MC thus making the conclusion that "Kayo chose MC over Iketani". There was nothing said about this. MC was the one who confessed to Kayo. MC was the one who expressed interest first. Before that, they were just normal childhood friends. Kayo saw MC as a childhood friend.

Chapter 7, page 20, Kayo says "I met Iketani during one of our basketball team trips". Iketani and Kayo lived far away in middle school. They met through training camps. That's where they developed their physical relationship. They were physically separated.

Chapter 1, page 10, MC says "Even after six months, we haven't gone past kissing. She's been avoiding me for three months now". Just three months in their relationship, Kayo already wavered. That's how strongly she gravitated towards Iketani. If anything, it was Kayo choosing Iketani over MC, not the other way around.

Chapter 1, page 11, Kayo responds "I liked you too". I already explained this that Kayo herself was unsure about the "like" she meant here. She clarifies this in Chapter 7, page 20. She was likely swept by the flow during the confession. The fact she treasured Yusuke as her childhood friend is undeniable at the very least. But we'll go with the assumption that she started having romantic feelings for Yusuke at this point just to continue with our discussion.

There's a reason why teenagers are considered children and not adults. Everyone involved are either 14 or 15 at most. They are not even close to being adults yet. Is it really hard to imagine that a young teenager wouldn't seriously think about and understand people relationships and emotions?

And yet you say Kayo is experienced to justify that she and MC were on a different level, hence, doomed at the start? Just say she's still young and naive. They both were. You are contradicting your own statement.

Why are you blowing off Kayo initially rejecting Iketani? This is huge! Because it shows that there really was something between Kayo and MC.

Rather, why should we treat it as if it's a sufficient justification? It's like saying "Sorry I ended up hitting you but I really tried to hold back at first, you know, so we're good right?"

You really think Iketani is only good at having sex? Iketani dated Kayo in middle school and now managed to steal Kayo from MC in high school. Iketani is completely different from MC and Kayo experienced this difference first hand. Literally and figuratively.

You are mixing up my words. I was referring to Kayo about being "experienced at sex". That was in response to you saying "Kayo is experienced at dating".

Kayo may no longer be in romantically in love with MC but Kayo still loves MC like a warm, comforting family member.

Yep, pretty much agree on the first half. The other half could be interpreted differently. But because I read the novel, I am able to agree on the second half. It only gets justified at a later time.

 

[Koyomiya]

Honestly, im surprised he even held it together the way he did. Good on him.

She straight up admitted to trying to get him to take responsibility of another guys child if it came to it. That’s nauseating.

 

[DeadToReal]

As I've pointed out before, she did NOT leave Iketani in middle school for MC. They were physically separated so there was no chance for them to date at all. Iketani just moved to the same area as her in high school that's why they met again. There was no "Kayo choosing MC over Iketani". During the time Kayo and Iketani got into a physical relationship, MC was still just a childhood friend to Kayo.

I think you're under the impression that Kayo, back in middle school, already had romantic feelings for MC thus making the conclusion that "Kayo chose MC over Iketani". There was nothing said about this. MC was the one who confessed to Kayo. MC was the one who expressed interest first. Before that, they were just normal childhood friends. Kayo saw MC as a childhood friend.

Chapter 7, page 23, "Just leave that indecisive childhood friend of yours already." This implies Kayo and Iketani were actually seeing each other, despite being physically separated. Otherwise, how could have Iketani have made that statement in the first place?

Same page, "...And that when it hit me. I finally realized that although Yusuke might be indecisive at times... that's only because you're always kind and think about my feelings. You're the one I truly needed." Kayo realized her feelings for MC and decided to break things off with Iketani to have a future relationship with MC.

And yet you say Kayo is experienced to justify that she and MC were on a different level, hence, doomed at the start? Just say she's still young and naive. They both were. You are contradicting your own statement.

You are mixing up my words. I was referring to Kayo about being "experienced at sex". That was in response to you saying "Kayo is experienced at dating".

Experience in dating and having the emotional development and maturity to make adult decisions are completely different things. It is not an either/or. Kayo can be young and naive, while still having the experience of dating and having sex with someone clearly having more experience that her.

Rather, why should we treat it as if it's a sufficient justification? It's like saying "Sorry I ended up hitting you but I really tried to hold back at first, you know, so we're good right?"

Who said anything about justifying Kayo's cheating? I never justified anything. I merely pointed out that resisting Iketani's advances changes the context of MC and Kayo's relationship from never being romantically in love with MC to actually being in love with MC before shifting her attention to Iketani. Your quote even highlights this:

Chapter 1, page 10, MC says "Even after six months, we haven't gone past kissing. She's been avoiding me for three months now". Just three months in their relationship, Kayo already wavered. That's how strongly she gravitated towards Iketani. If anything, it was Kayo choosing Iketani over MC, not the other way around.

Kayo can not waiver if she did not have feelings for MC in the first place. It shows that Kayo did not agree to date MC out of some obligation. It is that Kayo actually did romantically love MC before getting frustrated waiting for MC to make moves until she finally decided to cheat. This detail matters because it changes how we should view Kayo's relationship to MC. It is not that Kayo never loved MC. It is that Kayo fell out of love for MC.

You are mixing up my words. I was referring to Kayo about being "experienced at sex". That was in response to you saying "Kayo is experienced at dating".

Yes, Kayo is experienced in sex AND dating. Those two things are inseparable at this point. Because Kayo did both of those things at the same time, helping to explain why Kayo ultimately cheat on MC in the first place.

Yep, pretty much agree on the first half. The other half could be interpreted differently. But because I read the novel, I am able to agree on the second half. It only gets justified at a later time.

So in the end... I am ultimately right about Kayo's love changing from romantic love to familial love.

 

[DeadToReal]

Honestly, im surprised he even held it together the way he did. Good on him.

She straight up admitted to trying to get him to take responsibility of another guys child if it came to it. That’s nauseating.

In a way, it was a good thing that he found out about the cheating way before and had time to process it with Kotone and Napoli-tan.

I don't know what I would have done if I had just found out my lover was cheating on me. But I am sure it would involve a few tears, snot, and lots of yelling. MC did good keeping his calm and being cold towards Kayo. It made think clearly, get to the point, then coldly reject her in a way Kayo can never misinterpret.

 

[AnimuVsMango]

Whelp, he up and did it. So much for any "plan", pack it up boys, manga's over. Guess he at least got something out of it.

sleeps with Iketani because he's "cool" (not sure if this is cheating or not according to the timeline)

goes back to MC as a fallback

cheats on him bc she thinks he's "cool" again

thinks sloppy seconds are going to get him to come back

literally the whole thing is because she wants him to be the cuckold father to Iketani's love child

Holy shit talk about beyond redemption, not a single ounce of regret Is this seriously what middle schoolers are up to these days?

Was this part of your plan too?

Perhaps not, but it sure as shit is now.

 

[ynt311]

Chapter 7, page 23, "Just leave that indecisive childhood friend of yours already." This implies Kayo and Iketani were actually seeing each other, despite being physically separated. Otherwise, how could have Iketani have made that statement in the first place?

So what does have to do with "Kayo choosing MC over Iketani"? Did Kayo confess to MC after that? Did Kayo begin to be more proactive towards the MC to express her love? No, she didn't.

Kayo says to herself she only needs the MC afterwards, but what did she say during the confession? She likes Yusuke, but unsure whether it is love (in a romantic sense). Emphasis again on the "need" vs "love". If "need" and "love" was the same in Kayo's mind, how come she can't be sure of it? Simple, because they weren't the same and she didn't realize that. As MC says himself, Kayo going with Iketani while they remained as childhood friends could have been a potential future that worked out for them.

I merely pointed out that resisting Iketani's advances changes the context of MC and Kayo's relationship from never being romantically in love with MC to actually being in love with MC before shifting her attention to Iketani.

And we saw that her resistance was just wishy-washy so it doesn't amount to anything. So like I said, if she felt it wasn't working, she could have consulted with the MC, her partner. That's how you show trust - that you care about the relationship with your partner. If MC was aware, he could taken the appropriate actions to prevent it. But Kayo kept quiet about it and that says something. A refusal isn't a direct proof of love. It is just one obligation to maintain trust. You can't just say "Hey I refused 100 guys today that means I really love you". If anything, it only shows Kayo wasn't really fully committed and ready for a romantic relationship with MC, and her being unsure about her feelings at the start was already a sign of that. She did try at least, I'll give her that.

Kayo can not waiver if she did not have feelings for MC in the first place.

Good point. Then let me rephrase it "Just three months in their relationship, Kayo already shifted her attention to Iketani and started ignoring the MC."

It is that Kayo fell out of love for MC.

This was my point in the first place. What are we even arguing about here?

So in the end... I am ultimately right about Kayo's love changing from romantic love to familial love.

Well, that transformation did not occur in the manga. The Kayo in the manga remains as an obsessive and possessive girl who viewed MC as a property. The Kayo in the novel after what happens in the manga becomes someone who sincerely wishes for MC's happiness, even if it means sacrificing her own by not being with him. But sure, if you think treating someone as a property is a form of familial love, fine. Whatever floats your boat.

Let me reiterate my points just so we're not running around in circles:

• Kayo in this chapter has already fallen out of love with MC. Her claiming she needs MC and wants to be with him is only driven by the fear of being pregnant, not love.
• Kayo did not have romantic feelings for MC back in middle school and even before MC confessed. Kayo only saw him as a childhood friend. (I would love to be proven wrong about this to reshape my views on Kayo.)
• Kayo only becomes sincere and showed love towards MC in the novel once she accepted she can't be with MC and moved far away but not in the manga. It may look like there's a difference between them, but it's simply because the novel goes way further. (Disclaimer: I did not re-read the chapters already covered by the manga so I can't guarantee the Kayo's are 100% same.)

 

[JakiJakub]

Yep, MC should forgive her, marry her, make two children with her... and then realize she was betraying him all this time! But still loving her, mentally broken MC would try to provide for both children but at the end die due to fatal accident at his shetchy work. While all three families despise her (and her children, since even she don't know which man is their father), she should make a four more kids with Iketani, who'll with age transforms from "cool bad boy" to "violent drunkard obsessed about his woman' (alleged) infidelity", leaving deep emotional scars in all the kids, who then mess up their own lives, every single one of them...

Oh, wait, it's strangely similar to history of my own family...

 

[DeadToReal]

So what does have to do with "Kayo choosing MC over Iketani"? Did Kayo confess to MC after that? Did Kayo begin to be more proactive towards the MC to express her love? No, she didn't.

The fact that Kayo did not pursue MC does not matter in the context of this particular discussion. It is the fact that Kayo ended things with Iketani because she had feelings for MC that is important.

And we saw that her resistance was just wishy-washy so it doesn't amount to anything. So like I said, if she felt it wasn't working, she could have consulted with the MC, her partner. That's how you show trust - that you care about the relationship with your partner. If MC was aware, he could taken the appropriate actions to prevent it. But Kayo kept quiet about it and that says something. A refusal isn't a direct proof of love. It is just one obligation to maintain trust. You can't just say "Hey I refused 100 guys today that means I really love you". If anything, it only shows Kayo wasn't really fully committed and ready for a romantic relationship with MC, and her being unsure about her feelings at the start was already a sign of that. She did try at least, I'll give her that.

You are acting like people are robots. If someone does A, then people will automatically do B. Humans are not robots or computers. And many women will hide all sorts of things from their partners that they should have told their partners. Does that make all of them cheaters? No. They justify it by telling themselves that as long as they did not accept those advances, it is not a big deal enough to bring it up and get angry for. I do not agree with this, but that is the way many people are. What Kayo did is realistic.

This was my point in the first place. What are we even arguing about here?

Context. You know what we have been arguing about for the past 3 days, so do not pretend you do not know what I meant by that. Kayo's romantic love for MC transformed into something like familial love with some possessiveness by the time she decided to cheat.

But sure, if you think treating someone as a property is a form of familial love, fine. Whatever floats your boat.

Now I feel like you are deliberately ignoring what I've told you in this discussion to suit your needs. I explained the kind of love Kayo has for MC in a post made only 6 hours to the one you are replying to. Kayo has two kinds of love for MC: familial and love for one's possessions. People can have more than one emotion towards another, but you seem to think people only can only have one form of love towards people.

My points are:

• Kayo broke up with Iketani when she realized her romantic feelings toward MC in middle school, when told by Iketani to abandon MC for him.
• Just because Kayo did not purse MC does not mean she did not love MC in same way MC not asking out Kayo before the beginning of high school does not mean MC was not in love with Kayo.
• Kayo fell out of romantic love for MC because he could not measure up to Iketani.
• Kayo's feelings toward MC are complicated and changed over the course of their relationship. It starts are romantic love, but changes into a form of familial and possessive love.
• Web novel and manga are different in that manga omits or changes key details that change how we should view these characters.

I think the biggest issue you and I are having here is that you keep using web novel material to justify your stance. But the web novel and manga are different. Web novels are known to be used as first drafts - with cannon material usually being what is sold by big name publishers, e.g., light novel and manga. The manga changes or omits things that were in the novel. The manga version of Kayo is different from the web novel version you keep insisting on. We were never shown what manga Kayo said when MC confessed and the manga changed Kayo's attitude towards MC and Iketani. The manga version changes Kayo's confession and apology from being a selfish sociopath that is only temporarily willing to stop seeing Iketani - to Kayo insisting she will cut things off completely and be dedicated to MC from now on. These changes are important because it changes what kind of character these people are.

 

[HYBRID_BEING]

@Servphim
Was hex-shaped text-box looking thing on page 4 (2nd panel) empty?

 

[ynt311]

The fact that Kayo did not pursue MC does not matter in the context of this particular discussion. It is the fact that Kayo ended things with Iketani because she had feelings for MC that is important.

That's the problem. You make that assumption that X lead to Y. I already pointed out a lot of times that those feelings were feelings that Kayo was unsure herself. She's confirmed it but you're spinning it up into "romantic feelings" without concrete proof. I want a proof seeing Kayo pointing that love towards MC, not Kayo taking it away from someone else. If you can give me a concrete proof of those feelings, that MC felt that "romantic love" from Kayo, I will concede. I don't mind if you use the novel for that matter. Besides, I did want to be refuted on this and see that myself. That lead me to check to novel and pull the direct words from her to make sure of it.

If you accept her words "I need MC" to be sufficient as proof, so be it. I for sure don't, seeing how far she could go for Iketani and not the MC.

You are acting like people are robots. If someone does A, then people will automatically do B. Humans are not robots or computers. And many women will hide all sorts of things from their partners that they should have told their partners. Does that make all of them cheaters? No. They justify it by telling themselves that as long as they did not accept those advances, it is not a big deal enough to bring it up and get angry for. I do not agree with this, but that is the way many people are.

I don't disagree. My problem is that you try show that her "refusing Iketani at the start" is a proof that "she likes MC". Why don't you show me direct proof like her physically expressing that affection or her doing things for MC's sake? You can't because Kayo never did. MC never said anything too. We can only make guesses about what their 3-month relationship was like. I can't make conclusions without evidences. That's why I stand by Kayo not having romantic feelings even before. Because she never showed them. She even doubted herself. So how could I make the conclusion that she was romantically be in love with MC?

If you argue "not all people express their love visibly" or "not everyone is X", then this discussion is pointless. I could fit any description I'd like to support my argument. So could you. You want to think that Kayo is not a character that openly expresses love. I want to think that Kayo is the opposite, given how she behaved towards Iketani and MC. You want to think that her behavior towards Iketani is just lust-driven and that she really loves MC, familial or what. I want to think that Kayo just a really shallow character, not understanding love, etc.

What Kayo did is realistic.

Sure it is realistic. That doesn't mean I should just accept it to change my stance. Why should I be forced to accept that "refusing someone's advances is a proof of love"? Why should I yield and reduce it to that level? Why not stick with "fully committing to someone is a proof of love"? That level of shallowness is what enables this kind of toxic behavior in the first place. "I just did it once", "I tried my best to refuse it...", "Because you did not make a move...", "It was just lust not love...". Just say "I love someone else" and be done with it.

Context. You know what we have been arguing about for the past 3 days, so do not pretend you do not know what I meant by that. Kayo's romantic love for MC transformed into something like familial love with some possessiveness by the time she decided to cheat.

Then why are you refuting it? If we examine your previous argument, you said "Kayo always loved MC. That is why she is so desperate to get back with MC. It's just that her original romantic love eventually turned into Kayo loving MC to be her provider for her future kids, aka familial love. Still love though."

I did say before that "That may be true to some extent, depending on one's definition of love. To me, if the recipient does not see it as love, no matter how much you cry and claim for it to be, it won't be love.". Yet you were refuting it and kept pushing "no Kayo's love is love, whatever it is" from "romantic love" to "familial love" to "familial love with some possessiveness". Like I said, whatever floats your boat.

I think the biggest issue you and I are having here is that you keep using web novel material to justify your stance. But the web novel and manga are different. Web novels are known to be used as first drafts - with cannon material usually being what is sold by big name publishers, e.g., light novel and manga.

You have a point. However, my stance only becomes even firmer if we completely disregard the novel. Why? Because we don't see that change in Kayo. We don't see expressing that love that doesn't wish for her happiness alone. I am able to agree with some of your previous points precisely because of the novel. Without it, Kayo would remain to be a selfish girl who never loved MC. That comes from the fact that the manga never portrayed her atonement and sincerity. So, I stood by those facts.

But you are different. Your claim that Kayo's feelings is "familiar love" based on her past and current actions in the manga. That's what I'm refuting. But then again, if you really want to think that Kayo's apologies and actions in this chapter as "change" and a result of that love, then I doubt we'll ever reach an agreement.

Now I feel like you are deliberately ignoring what I've told you in this discussion to suit your needs.

You make claims based on the manga, not the novel. But now you conveniently use my statement based on the novel "But because I read the novel, I am able to agree on the second half. It only gets justified at a later time." to support your stance and claim "you are right". If your stance was based on the manga alone, I wonder what your intention was when saying "So in the end... I am ultimately right about Kayo's love changing from romantic love to familial love.". I wonder who was trying to make it "suit their needs".

To me, that shows you just want to express superiority. Pardon me if that wasn't the case, but it appeared to be. My goal is not to win argument but to reaffirm my stance on Kayo. That's the reason I checked the novel. If you just want to take the win and use the "manga vs novel" argument, fine, you can have it. It was a good discussion to me at least.

Just because Kayo did not purse MC does not mean she did not love MC in same way MC not asking out Kayo before the beginning of high school does not mean MC was not in love with Kayo.

Suppose that's true, why would it prove Kayo's love? Why would "Kayo not pursuing MC" prove she's in love? You are making it sound like since "Kayo not pursuing MC ≠ Kayo doesn't love MC" therefore "Kayo not pursuing MC = Kayo loves MC" which is clearly flawed.

Web novel and manga are different in that manga omits or changes key details that change how we should view these characters.

Phrasing. You make the claim that they are different when you haven't read it yourself (Pardon me if you ended up doing so). I don't make the opposite claim. To be more precise, "The novel covers events after the manga that will reshape your view on the characters".

 

[SomeGuy10002]

Nononono what the fuck is that? I don't give a shit about the mc being a chad, who the fuck is this girl? Why the fuck does she think saying all that stuff will repair their relationship? Has the author never seen how desperate women act? What the fuck is this garbage dialogue

 

[DeadToReal]

That's the problem. You make that assumption that X lead to Y. I already pointed out a lot of times that those feelings were feelings that Kayo was unsure herself. She's confirmed it but you're spinning it up into "romantic feelings" without concrete proof. I want a proof seeing Kayo pointing that love towards MC, not Kayo taking it away from someone else. If you can give me a concrete proof of those feelings, that MC felt that "romantic love" from Kayo, I will concede. I don't mind if you use the novel for that matter. Besides, I did want to be refuted on this and see that myself. That lead me to check to novel and pull the direct words from her to make sure of it.

If you accept her words "I need MC" to be sufficient as proof, so be it. I for sure don't, seeing how far she could go for Iketani and not the MC.

I don't disagree. My problem is that you try show that her "refusing Iketani at the start" is a proof that "she likes MC". Why don't you show me direct proof like her physically expressing that affection or her doing things for MC's sake? You can't because Kayo never did. MC never said anything too. We can only make guesses about what their 3-month relationship was like. I can't make conclusions without evidences. That's why I stand by Kayo not having romantic feelings even before. Because she never showed them. She even doubted herself. So how could I make the conclusion that she was romantically be in love with MC?

The story takes place months after Kayo started cheating on MC. Months after she lost interest in MC to cheat with Iketani. Unless we get a flashback chapter focusing on the beginning of their relationship, all we can do is infer how things were with things they are currently saying to each other in the present time.

I believe there is currently enough information to conclude Kayo and MC romantically loved each other since middle school. But because Kayo and MC never went past kissing each other, Kayo grew disappointed with their relationship and accepted Iketani's advances.

Explain why did Kayo stop seeing Iketani in middle school? Explain why is it that Kayo realized that she "truly needed" MC when Iketani told Kayo to leave MC. Kayo could have kept seeing Iketani if she really did not have any romantic feelings for MC. After all, Kayo and MC were not actually dating at the time. If Kayo did not have any romantic feelings for MC, why could she have not have continued seeing Iketani? I know that it was not because of distance, because that did not stop the two of them from seeing each other when Iketani told Kayo to leave MC for him. Explain why did Kayo not reject MC when he made his confession. Explain why did Kayo spend 3 months with MC before finally cheating on him.

I believe it makes no sense that she would do any of those things, unless Kayo actually had romantic feelings for MC.

And FYI, "I need you" is a very well known way of saying "I love you". Even more so when that person is saying "I truly need you."

If you argue "not all people express their love visibly" or "not everyone is X", then this discussion is pointless. I could fit any description I'd like to support my argument. So could you. You want to think that Kayo is not a character that openly expresses love. I want to think that Kayo is the opposite, given how she behaved towards Iketani and MC. You want to think that her behavior towards Iketani is just lust-driven and that she really loves MC, familial or what. I want to think that Kayo just a really shallow character, not understanding love, etc.

It is a well known fact that Japanese people are reluctant to openly express their feelings to each other. This is even more so when it comes to expressing romantic affection towards each other. Why do you think the trope of making a big deal "holding hands" and "calling each other by their given names" is so prevalent in Japanese stories?

The truth is that both Kayo and MC were not openly expressing their love for each other. This is based on the fact that Japanese culture discourages directness, the fact that MC is completely inexperienced in dating, and how most girls hate having to take the lead in relationships. Why do you think that a common complaint is that women expect men to "know what they are thinking without them saying anything"? It is expected that Kayo wouldn't be expressive and forward in her desires, but this was really bad when MC was the one not openly expressing his love for Kayo. MC should have taken the lead and have been forward with her. That is the entire reason why Kayo got bored and frustrated with him to the point she cheated on him with the one person that was actually direct and took the lead for her: Iketani. The MC said it himself that they never got past kissing and Kayo's main complaint about the MC was that he is indecisive. Kayo may be a shelfish character, but you can not blame her for being bored and frustrated with MC not doing anything past kissing. Especially after Kayo went all the way with Iketani. The thing Kayo did wrong was not breaking up with MC before seeing Iketani.

Sure it is realistic. That doesn't mean I should just accept it to change my stance. Why should I be forced to accept that "refusing someone's advances is a proof of love"? Why should I yield and reduce it to that level? Why not stick with "fully committing to someone is a proof of love"? That level of shallowness is what enables this kind of toxic behavior in the first place. "I just did it once", "I tried my best to refuse it...", "Because you did not make a move...", "It was just lust not love...". Just say "I love someone else" and be done with it.

It is a girlfriend in a relationship refusing someone advances because she was still in love with her boyfriend. Otherwise, why would she refuse Iketani's advances in the first place? Why did Kayo not break up with MC when she had someone else that she previously had "fun times" with? You do not refuse someone's advances unless you are still committed to your current relationship.

Then why are you refuting it? If we examine your previous argument, you said "Kayo always loved MC. That is why she is so desperate to get back with MC. It's just that her original romantic love eventually turned into Kayo loving MC to be her provider for her future kids, aka familial love. Still love though."

I did not refute anything. It was just too much of a pain to type "Kayo fell out of romantic love for MC, which transformed into familial love with some possessiveness when she cheated" over and over again that I just shortened it. Completely forgetting how important it was because I assumed you knew what I was talking about since I have been repeating this for 4 days.

I'll make it clear once again: Kayo was romantically in love with MC. Kayo's love is now familial and possessive.

I did say before that "That may be true to some extent, depending on one's definition of love. To me, if the recipient does not see it as love, no matter how much you cry and claim for it to be, it won't be love.". Yet you were refuting it and kept pushing "no Kayo's love is love, whatever it is" from "romantic love" to "familial love" to "familial love with some possessiveness". Like I said, whatever floats your boat.

Do you have a possession that you treasure immensely? That is possessive love. Do you love your parents? If yes, does this mean you want to kiss and have sex with them? I hope not. See, there are multiple different kinds of love. Just because Kayo does not want to have sex with MC does not mean she does not have any loving feelings for MC.

You have a point. However, my stance only becomes even firmer if we completely disregard the novel. Why? Because we don't see that change in Kayo. We don't see expressing that love that doesn't wish for her happiness alone. I am able to agree with some of your previous points precisely because of the novel. Without it, Kayo would remain to be a selfish girl who never loved MC. That comes from the fact that the manga never portrayed her atonement and sincerity. So, I stood by those facts.

But you are different. Your claim that Kayo's feelings is "familiar love" based on her past and current actions in the manga. That's what I'm refuting. But then again, if you really want to think that Kayo's apologies and actions in this chapter as "change" and a result of that love, then I doubt we'll ever reach an agreement.

Kayo is a shellfish girl. All of her actions so far have been selfish ones. But just because Kayo is selfish does not mean that she did not love MC. Again, why bother breaking up with Iketani when he asked Kayo to leave MC for him? Why bother getting into a relationship with MC in the first place? Why bother refusing Iketani's many advances to stay loyal to MC in the beginning? And I am basing Kayo's "familial love" on the fact Kayo and MC are close childhood friends. You really think close childhood friends that spent all their lives together would not develop something like familial love towards one another?

You make claims based on the manga, not the novel. But now you conveniently use my statement based on the novel "But because I read the novel, I am able to agree on the second half. It only gets justified at a later time." to support your stance and claim "you are right". If your stance was based on the manga alone, I wonder what your intention was when saying "So in the end... I am ultimately right about Kayo's love changing from romantic love to familial love.". I wonder who was trying to make it "suit their needs".

To me, that shows you just want to express superiority. Pardon me if that wasn't the case, but it appeared to be. My goal is not to win argument but to reaffirm my stance on Kayo. That's the reason I checked the novel. If you just want to take the win and use the "manga vs novel" argument, fine, you can have it. It was a good discussion to me at least.

I made my statement in reference to you dismissing and misinterpreting what I have been claiming all along about what kind of love Kayo feels. I made it very clear several times that I believe Kayo currently feels two different kinds of loving feelings towards MC: familial and love of one's possession. You deliberately made a statement that twisted what I have been saying all along to mean Kayo's possessiveness towards MC is familial love. That is what I called you out on.

Suppose that's true, why would it prove Kayo's love? Why would "Kayo not pursuing MC" prove she's in love? You are making it sound like since "Kayo not pursuing MC ≠ Kayo doesn't love MC" therefore "Kayo not pursuing MC = Kayo loves MC" which is clearly flawed.

You are thinking that Kayo not pursuing MC is happening in a vacuum. That everything Kayo does is not related to everything she did before and since. It is Kayo being close childhood friends with MC+Kayo realizing how much she "truly needed" MC+Kayo leaving Iketani after he asks Kayo to leave MC for him+Kayo not dating anyone until MC asked her out+Kayo and MC kissing during dating+Kayo repeatedly refusing Iketani's advances for at least 3 months+Kayo feeling guilty for cheating. It is all these things together that show that Kayo did romantically love MC.

Phrasing. You make the claim that they are different when you haven't read it yourself (Pardon me if you ended up doing so). I don't make the opposite claim. To be more precise, "The novel covers events after the manga that will reshape your view on the characters".

I claim they are different and gave a couple of examples why. I even explained why these changes matter. Even other people that have read the web novel have pointed out the manga omits and changes things, so I am not the only one making this claim. And I never argued the web novel covered events after the manga ends, so I don't know why you are bringing that up.

Edit: This has been going on for 4 days and I am tired of typing up comments the size of entire novel chapters. If you want to believe that Kayo never loved MC, then feel free to believe whatever you want. I no longer care much about this anymore. Next chapter will probably be out in around 2 days and I do not want to still be arguing about this then.

 

[ynt311]

But because Kayo and MC never went past kissing each other...

That's all I really needed to hear. The fact that Kayo accepted MC's kiss is a sign that there are feelings. I can make the argument about whether it was sincere and not lust-driven or out of obligation and who initiated it, but I won't. I overlooked this detail so I was mistaken in my previous argument, my bad.

But I hope you see the difference between her "accepting MC's kiss" vs "refusing Iketani" as proof and understand why it was necessary to go through the argument that the latter holds no weight as a proof of love. With this tiny detail, I am on board with the fact that Kayo started developing her own feelings during their relationship.

And FYI, "I need you" is a very well known way of saying "I love you". Even more so when that person is saying "I truly need you."

If those two are the same for Kayo, why make that distinction in this current chapter when saying "I like you, but unsure whether it is love"? What is causing her doubt? This remains consistent in both manga and novel that's why I wanted to confirm.

It is a well known fact that Japanese people are reluctant to openly express their feelings to each other. This is even more so when it comes to expressing romantic affection towards each other. Why do you think the trope of making a big deal "holding hands" and "calling each other by their given names" is so prevalent in Japanese stories?

But Kayo is not known to hold back on the intimacy aspect. You know how far she went with Iketani already. You said it, she's the more experienced one here. Again, this argument falls under "fitting a description to support a claim". I would understand if Kayo reasoning was to keep MC pure or something like that.

And the one that is not openly expressing their love is the MC. That is the entire reason why Kayo got bored and frustrated with him to the point she cheated on him with Iketani. The MC said it himself that they never got past kissing and Kayo's main complaint about the MC was that he is indecisive. Kayo may be a shelfish character, but you can not blame her for being bored and frustrated with MC not doing anything past kissing. Especially after Kayo went all the way with Iketani. The thing Kayo did wrong was not breaking up with MC before seeing Iketani.

Double standards. Kayo didn't express it too so why only blame MC? Using your past argument, Kayo was the more experienced one in dating and sex so shouldn't she be the more proactive one especially if she's the one strongly wishing for physical intimacy? Mind you, it is MC who confessed and expressed his affection first. I don't want an argument saying "Well, in Japanese culture women tend to be more conservative so Kayo..." because it's a convenient one.

I did not refute anything. It was just too much of a pain to type "Kayo fell out of romantic love for MC, which transformed into familial love with some possessiveness when she cheated" over and over again that I just shortened it. Completely forgetting how important it was because I assumed you knew what I was talking about since I have been repeating this for 3 days.

Alright let's clear this up then.
My stance is "Kayo wanting MC to father the baby is driven by fear not love. It is not familial love in any sense."
Your stance is "Kayo wanting MC to father the baby is familial love".
Our point of disagreement is the "familial love".

Do you have a possession that you treasure immensely? That is possesive love. Do you love your parents? If yes, does this mean you want to kiss and have sex with them? I hope not. See, there are multiple different kinds of love. Just because Kayo does not want to have sex with MC does not mean she does not have any loving feelings for MC.

Sure there are different kinds. But you really need to take the MC's perspective. How does MC view it? How does her acts of betrayal appear to him? What about pushing the responsibility of carrying a stranger's baby onto him? Sure, sure, Kayo sees them all as love. But what about the MC, the recipient? Is it received as love? An abuser may call "violence" as a form of "love". But to the victim, is it the same?

Depending on which stance you take, it will be different. That's why, if you are keen on believing that Kayo's treatment of MC as a property is familial love. Feel free. But you won't convince me to think the same, because to me and the MC, it's not.

Kayo is a shelfish girl. All of her actions so far have been selfish ones. But just because Kayo is selfish does not mean that she did not love MC. Again, why bother breaking up with Iketani when he asked Kayo to leave MC for him? Why bother getting into a relationship with MC in the first place? Why bother refusing Iketani's many advances to stay loyal to MC in the beginning? And I am basing Kayo's "familial love" on the fact Kayo and MC are close childhood friends. You really think close childhood friends that spent all their lives together would not develop something like familial love towards one another?

Same arguments. Let me answer each question.

1. Again, why bother breaking up with Iketani when he asked Kayo to leave MC for him?
They lived far away. Their relationship weren't bound to last when they only met from time to time on training camps.

2. Why bother getting into a relationship with MC in the first place?
Ask Kayo, because even herself was unsure. Maybe she enjoys dating? Maybe she's missing that physical relationship she used to have? Maybe she's comforted by MC's kindness? Maybe because there's no other person to direct her attention to when Iketani was gone? Many possible answers. This question remains unanswered because Kayo does not explicit state her reasons.

3. Why bother refusing Iketani's many advances to stay loyal to MC in the beginning?
Many possible answers. Maybe out of obligation? Maybe her interest towards Iketani has already dropped at that point and just gradually went back up in time? Maybe she genuinely wants to focus on MC? Same as above, this question remains unanswered.

4. You really think close childhood friends that spent all their lives together would not develop something like familial love towards one another?
No I'm not refuting that. However, it's not impossible for that "familial love" to turn into a possessive obsession, especially when one becomes complacent. That's why the term "convenient person" exists. You seem to think that once that "familial love" forms, it will never change to something else.

I made my statement in reference to you dismissing and misinterpreting what I have been claiming all along about what kind of love Kayo feels. I made it very clear several times that I believe Kayo currently feels two different kinds of loving feelings towards MC: familial and love of one's possession.

Then what did I misinterpret and dismiss in your statement because of the novel? Allow me to clarify it so please spell it out. I am firm on the point about that the love portrayed in this manga is not "familial love", whether we consider the novel or not.

I made it very clear several times that I believe Kayo currently feels two different kinds of loving feelings towards MC: familial and love of one's possession.

Sure, but I disagree on the "familial love". That's why we're having this argument.

You deliberately made a statement that twisted what I have been saying all along to mean Kayo's possesiveness towards MC is familial love. That is what I called you out on.

Aha. I think I know where your confusion comes from. You misinterpreted it as me, twisting your words and say your notion of familial love is the same as possessiveness. No, not at all. I am clearly aware of the difference of the two. I am saying that you are mistaken into thinking that Kayo is acting out of familial love. It is not. She is acting out of possessiveness and selfishness. It will never be familial love.

Do you think saying "I want you to father someone else's baby" is familial love just because of the word "father"?
Are you really turning blind to the fact that Kayo is forcing someone to take responsibility of raising else's baby?
Do you think raising someone else's baby is such a simple matter that can be dismissed by saying "I'm asking you because I want you to become my family"?
Do you really consider that as familial love?
Isn't that pure selfishness?

You keep focusing on Kayo, but you never looked at it from MC's perspective.

You are thinking that Kayo not pursuing MC is happening in a vacuum. That everything Kayo does is not related to everything she did before and since. It is Kayo being close childhood friends with MC+Kayo realizing how much she "truly needed" MC+Kayo leaving Iketani after he asks Kayo to leave MC for him+Kayo not dating anyone until MC asked her out+Kayo and MC kissing during dating+Kayo repeatedly refusing Iketani's advances for at least 3 months+Kayo feeling guilty for cheating. It is all these things together that show that Kayo did romantically love MC.

Same arguments. Those are very weak points when you consider how far she can go with Iketani.

Kayo being close friends with MC is simply just friendship.
Uttering words "truly needed" without backing them by actions will just remain as words.
Kayo not dating anyone until MC asked her out (as if she's obliged to date someone) as reason of being in love is another assumption you made.
Everyone feels guilty about cheating, not just Kayo (if you are a sane person at least).
Refusing advances for at least 3 months does not amount to anything when you eventually succumb to it and even go as far as think that your partner will just forgive you.

However, Kayo and MC kissing during dating IS one convincing proof. But honestly, I feel it's just hard to prove things on your end because the manga never really gave a closer view on their relationship, especially during the times they dated. So I think no matter how much we argue on this specific matter, we won't reach an agreement. For this point, I think we can just stand by our own separate stances. These are likely the areas the author intentionally left for interpretation.

Even other people that have read the web novel have pointed out the manga omitts and changes things, so I am not the only one making this claim.

Sorry, but it's not a really valid argument to use "someone said it" as source, especially when we are having a very meaningful discussion. I know we both don't have that much luxury of time to check things out, so it's probably better to simply avoid making such claims. This is not to degrade you or anything, I just wish for a proper discussion.

I claim they are different and gave a couple of examples why.

There are no examples you can give if you haven't read it yourself so better quote where those claims came or don't make them at all.

And I never argued the web novel covered events after the manga ends, so I don't know why you are bringing that up.

The intention was to correct that statement on your behalf because I read the novel. Pardon me if it was unsolicited but I don't want other readers in this forum to be mislead.