Koisuru (Otome) no Tsukurikata - Vol. 5 Ch. 45

[Jhonathan45]

Authors have accidentally written trans and gay characters since gender was constructed. There is serious potential for "death of the author, birth of the reader" going on here and to try to snuff out either interpretation at this point of trans allegory is dumb

Can we do that with any character? Can we kill the author with let's say, Bridget in Guilty Gear Strive

 

[Jhonathan45]

How's it trans coded for a guy to naturally wanna know what breast feel like?

Please for once just see past yourself. Stop injecting a trans reading in literally anything short of a guy who wants to experience an ounce of femininity. It's getting ridiculous...

We all inject a part of ourselves when reading fictional media. What I would point out as a problem here is people saying that the author unintentionally wrote them as trans, as way to validate their view, instead of just saying that this is their personal/preferred view

 

[spaceship22]

Try this mental exercise:
Imagine this manga was anonymous, so there is no author to be an ultimate ambiguity resolver.
Now, if you saw a character (Hiura) that:
-Likes dressing like a girl and presenting feminine
-Likes being perceived as feminine
-Likes things that girls normally like, such as makeup
-Adopts a feminine role
-Is much more happy and socially open after adopting a feminine identity
-Feels something special when wearing breastforms
It would be hard not to think "damn, I think he wants to be a girl". And while the validity of this thought is dependent of your cultural framework and the culture of the society the plot is based upon, it is undeniable that it has plenty of correlations to what a present day trans person is like (or even someone who just "wants to be a girl", oblivious of what the word "trans" even means or not knowing the concept of transness (which by the way, predates current civilizations, and is a feeling that has been found in antiquity records from thousands of years ago)).

Now, I know Hiura is a boy. And it is a boy because the author said so, and they have the final word, since they are the god of this universe.
But it is undeniable that if Hiura was a real person, not a character from a manga, he would very likely be a damn trans girl.

 

[MakoMachine]

Can we do that with any character? Can we kill the author with let's say, Bridget in Guilty Gear Strive

I mean, you can sure. But like, would it not be a blatently transphobic move to try to void one of the few purposefully written and confirmed trans characters out of spite? Hiura hasn't fully figured themselves out yet and you are already threatening transphobia at the THOUGHT of someone considering they might just unintentionally be trans by the end of it. Not cool.

 

[MrKarlozPs]

Now kiss in front of her to defeat her with pure shock damage!

 

[Trazel_Apeally]

How's it trans coded for a guy to naturally wanna know what breast feel like?

Please for once just see past yourself. Stop injecting a trans reading in literally anything short of a guy who wants to experience an ounce of femininity. It's getting ridiculous...

For the same reasons you say it isn't, simple is as simple does, just a fan-theory mate; Trans People exist, we're gonna be in communities with many that may or may not know who we were born/had grown-up as.
If your own clouded learning and biases tell me to fuck off then by all means scold me as much as you please, but be careful;
I could be into that and am leading you on like the deviously vile Trans-person that I am...
What horrors have I yet to reveal~ The world may never know!


Additionally, I believe this well-worded comment helps actually answer your question SB, assuming you care to do the same in tossing aside your personal biases to see the bigger picture.

Try this mental exercise:
Imagine this manga was anonymous, so there is no author to be an ultimate ambiguity resolver.
Now, if you saw a character (Hiura) that:
-Likes dressing like a girl and presenting feminine
-Likes being perceived as feminine
-Likes things that girls normally like, such as makeup
-Adopts a feminine role
-Is much more happy and socially open after adopting a feminine identity
-Feels something special when wearing breastforms
It would be hard not to think "damn, I think he wants to be a girl". And while the validity of this thought is dependent of your cultural framework and the culture of the society the plot is based upon, it is undeniable that it has plenty of correlations to what a present day trans person is like (or even someone who just "wants to be a girl", oblivious of what the word "trans" even means or not knowing the concept of transness (which by the way, predates current civilizations, and is a feeling that has been found in antiquity records from thousands of years ago)).

Now, I know Hiura is a boy. And it is a boy because the author said so, and they have the final word, since they are the god of this universe.
But it is undeniable that if Hiura was a real person, not a character from a manga, he would very likely be a damn trans girl.

Banter aside, and to add some actual forum content =v=, I appreciate the separative stance you took SS22, and I once agree that at the end of the day, Hiura's a boy canonically. Context is so much more than just what's said on a page, in a chapter, or even the whole series; The state of the world as it was written is just as big an influence on the plot as the Author themself.

Lastly, How cute would it be if Hiura was the make-up crazed boy practicing his make-up skills on a questioning Midou? How would this affect their dynamic.

I got at least 5 more What-Ifs if anyone else wants to shoot the shit about non-canon.

 

[Trazel_Apeally]

I mean, you can sure. But like, would it not be a blatently transphobic move to try to void one of the few purposefully written and confirmed trans characters out of spite? Hiura hasn't fully figured themselves out yet and you are already threatening transphobia at the THOUGHT of someone considering they might just unintentionally be trans by the end of it. Not cool.

Super off-topic but I just want to say how funny it is they went directly to Bridges, obvious scapegoat with her own community drama. Wonder how shocked some here would be if I were to reveal I think referring to Bridges in prior games as male is okay (imo). To me that's just extra affirmation that the Present Day Bridges is a Woman. It's okay to acknowledge where one originated, but people change. Once strongly held convictions waver and falter with the ever present tides of time. You today is not who you tomorrow is.

 

[MakoMachine]

Super off-topic but I just want to say how funny it is they went directly to Bridges, obvious scapegoat with her own community drama. Wonder how shocked some here would be if I were to reveal I think referring to Bridges in prior games as male is okay (imo). To me that's just extra affirmation that the Present Day Bridges is a Woman. It's okay to acknowledge where one originated, but people change. Once strongly held convictions waver and falter with the ever present tides of time. You today is not who you tomorrow is.

Oh yeah, I knew I was dealing with someone who was only trying to stir the pot out of some residual frustration. Gotta shut that shit down.
While beautifully said, that's a realy personal preference depending on the person. Regardless, I feel like the majority of trans people tend not to like their old name or gender to come up at all unless with certain context. Not to mention, the general idea of being trans is that they never actually were their assigned gender at birth, but just had to find their real preferences after self exploration. So ultimately, I feel like it's just safer to refer to Bridget in both current and past tense as a girl. If not, it could end up hurting actual trans women sadly.

 

[smolbaka]

Can we do that with any character? Can we kill the author with let's say, Bridget in Guilty Gear Strive

You can't utter the blasphemy of a trans character being a femboy to them. But they can definitely speculate how all the femboys must secretly want to transition into girls.

This is just how I realize we aren't dealing with rational people. Their eyes are blind by ideology, they only see the world through the trans lens and nothing else.

Their cult looks down on detransitoners like they're sub human for leaving.

I'm quite glad the LGB and T is having a divorce cause I've never seen such a community full of hatred and spite for others.

You know it's bad when Gays who stood along side them are tired of their bullshit.

 

[Superasil]

Try this mental exercise:
Imagine this manga was anonymous, so there is no author to be an ultimate ambiguity resolver.
Now, if you saw a character (Hiura) that:
-Likes dressing like a girl and presenting feminine
-Likes being perceived as feminine
-Likes things that girls normally like, such as makeup
-Adopts a feminine role
-Is much more happy and socially open after adopting a feminine identity
-Feels something special when wearing breastforms
It would be hard not to think "damn, I think he wants to be a girl". And while the validity of this thought is dependent of your cultural framework and the culture of the society the plot is based upon, it is undeniable that it has plenty of correlations to what a present day trans person is like (or even someone who just "wants to be a girl", oblivious of what the word "trans" even means or not knowing the concept of transness (which by the way, predates current civilizations, and is a feeling that has been found in antiquity records from thousands of years ago)).

Now, I know Hiura is a boy. And it is a boy because the author said so, and they have the final word, since they are the god of this universe.
But it is undeniable that if Hiura was a real person, not a character from a manga, he would very likely be a damn trans girl.

Once again, this only works if you look at this from a strictly trans lens. The vast majority of people that experiment with how they look, how they present themselves are not trans. To be trans implies the need to transition sexes because of a feeling of dysphoria, Hiura does not have this, he does not see himself as a girl. This is what is most important, regardless of every other point here. How the character feels about himself, how he talks about himself and how his inner dialogue suggests his mind is at is paramount.

Keep in mind here what you're essentially doing is pigeonholing genders into specific ways of being; ways of dressing, acting and presenting.

This is why I specifically pointed out the Bonus chapter with the false breasts, Aside from that, Hiura hasn't shown many signs I personally consider Trans-Coded things, being in love is universal, but in the end Hiura IS canonically still Male for all intents and purposes.

This is a fair point, but of course I'm gonna view things in a Trans-Biased way, using personal biases to further connect with a character or series creating alternative scenarios or situations to further explore the characters' traits, non-canonical events to further contextualize the beauty in the Canon series of events, I find it to be the whole point of fiction in general.

Saying it's wrong is a poor wording, but I can understand what you mean. Like what I said in response to Narehate's reply, an author's vision for their story is to be respected. Just because I like to talk about non-canonical outcomes and aspects doesn't negate the canonical happenings, I'm not telling the author to change fuck all, this is an adorable story.

If it truly doesn't belong here I ask the mods remove it, but what good is reading a story if you don't try to learn something about yourself from it? Not every story has something to be learned at face value, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to be gained from looking introspectively regardless.

If all my hyperbole and what-if'ing is really as dangerous as you make it out to be, then I'll gladly make amends, but for now I'm just gonna keep enjoying the things I do for fun
<3 Thank you for your insight and PoV on the matter!

I can understand wanting to have these ideas about characters you like and such, and people can obviously think what they want, and they should!

What becomes an issue in my eyes however is when people call these characters "trans-coded" and such, it gets to the point where that's how they're viewed in many circles and the thought encroaches so far that it's causing literal issues in localization. Major translators in the sphere have praised 7S for "consulting with trans voices" for this manga when that's clearly what caused Hiura to be changed in the first version of the official manga.

Essentially, all I'm really saying here is that this idea of pushing Hiura as a trans coded character is genuinely unhealthy, both in terms of the individual (it's essentially a delusion) and in terms of the translation scene (it creates errors in translation and localization, leading to misunderstandings and a net loss of quality, especially for people not "in the know" of otokonoko culture and japenese gender context.).

 

[Kiiro1217]

God dang thats....thats a lot of very long strongly worded comments

 

[smolbaka]

To be trans implies the need to transition sexes because of a feeling of dysphoria, Hiura does not have this, he does not see himself as a girl. This is what is most important, regardless of every other point here.

Many trans circles believe you don't need dysphoria. It's actually transphobic and "gatekeeping" to them. Which is a bit ominous.

 

[spaceship22]

Once again, this only works if you look at this from a strictly trans lens. The vast majority of people that experiment with how they look, how they present themselves are not trans. To be trans implies the need to transition sexes because of a feeling of dysphoria, Hiura does not have this, he does not see himself as a girl. This is what is most important, regardless of every other point here. How the character feels about himself, how he talks about himself and how his inner dialogue suggests his mind is at is paramount.

Keep in mind here what you're essentially doing is pigeonholing genders into specific ways of being; ways of dressing, acting and presenting.

I know that Hiura does not see himself as a girl. But if you extracted Hiura's characteristics and projected them onto a real person, even if you didn't know the concept of being trans, or disphoria, even if this was the 4th century, it would be hard not to think that person would like to be a girl. If you do everything a girl does, behave like a girl does, speak like a girl does, love like a girl does... you're a girl in practice. Sure, you may not identify as one, but what is the difference that others may perceive? Essentially, none. Others will never be able to read your thoughts, they can just perceive you externally.
This is similar to the old Hijra culture in India and Pakistan, in which men who renounce masculinity and adopt feminine patterns are seen as a thirs gender, not as male. This is the breach between gender idealism vs gender realism. In the first, you can be whatever gender you think you are, regardless of how you are. In the second, you are how you behave.

 

[N2O]

What a weird choice, picking the baby doll outfit for this situation

 

[smolbaka]

I know that Hiura does not see himself as a girl. But if you extracted Hiura's characteristics and projected them onto a real person, even if you didn't know the concept of being trans, or disphoria, even if this was the 4th century, it would be hard not to think that person would like to be a girl. If you do everything a girl does, behave like a girl does, speak like a girl does, love like a girl does... you're a girl in practice. Sure, you may not identify as one, but what is the difference that others may perceive? Essentially, none. Others will never be able to read your thoughts, they can just perceive you externally.
This is similar to the old Hijra culture in India and Pakistan, in which men who renounce masculinity and adopt feminine patterns are seen as a thirs gender, not as male. This is the breach between gender idealism vs gender realism. In the first, you can be whatever gender you think you are, regardless of how you are. In the second, you are how you behave.

How are you real?

You're essentially saying gender roles make you a man or woman. Did you even think twice about what you just said?

I'd never wanna take you seriously on any subject matter dealing with gender. Cause you'd spout the most regressive shit since the 1950s.

 

[Trevoga]

Many trans circles believe you don't need dysphoria. It's actually transphobic and "gatekeeping" to them. Which is a bit ominous.

So if I don't feel dysphoria about my assigned sex, just euphoria about being seen as the opposite sex, I'm not allowed to transition? Don't equate the concept of gender euphoria to people forcing trans identities onto others.

 

[spaceship22]

How are you real?

You're essentially saying gender roles make you a man or woman. Did you even think twice about what you just said?

I'd never wanna take you seriously on any subject matter dealing with gender. Cause you'd spout the most regressive shit since the 1950s.

Gender roles apply to 99.9% of the population, like it or not.

 

[smolbaka]

So if I don't feel dysphoria about my assigned sex, just euphoria about being seen as the opposite sex, I'm not allowed to transition? Don't equate the concept of gender euphoria to people forcing trans identities onto others.

If you get "euphoric" about being the opposite sex, and experience no dysphoria at all with your born sex, that's not being trans, that's a fetish my guy.

Autogynophilia to be precise.

 

[smolbaka]

Gender roles apply to 99.9% of the population, like it or not.

And you're following those roles, having it triumph biological sex.

Saying that if you do housework as a man you are a woman and should identify as so.

 

[Trevoga]

If you get "euphoric" about being the opposite sex, and experience no dysphoria at all with your born sex, that's not being trans, that's a fetish my guy.

Autogynophilia to be precise.

Oh, of course you're one of those. Shame on me for expecting anything better.