Koisuru (Otome) no Tsukurikata - Vol. 5 Ch. 46

[MakoMachine]

@Narehate @smolbaka @Trevoga @MakoMachine @Swards

Please stop shitting up the thread with personal attacks.

So general attacks are okay tho then apparently? Cool.

 

[BraveDude8]

So general attacks are okay tho then apparently? Cool.

These are like, literally Nazi arguments here.

 

[MakoMachine]

@BraveDude8
Ah, okay so the one group who can't be generally insulted is nazis then? When I said "literally" I meant literally rhetoric to shut up endangered minorities.

You have liked comments on this thread supporting transphobic rhetoric and shown disdain for people trying to call out basic slurs against trans people. I feel like it can't be any more clear than that what is going on here.

 

[Trevoga]

Hiura might be intended to be a crossdresser, but he sure is written like a trans girl. 99% Chance the author has never heard of trans people (no such thing as LGBT education in Japan), wouldn't be the first time a Japanese author writes good trans rep without being aware of trans people as a concept.

Is he? I'm not seeing it at all. Completely agree with the rest of your post (trimmed for readability), but I don't agree at all on this part, he seems to be explicitly not trans.

 

[Ragerfan]

Trap is a slur. Even if you use it to refer to crossdressers, since it implies they're doing it maliciously to trick people.

(Femboy is fine, people who call it a slur usually happens because most people who use the term in weaboo territories are transphobes)

Weaboos also love to pretend like an explicitly trans character isn't trans. (See: Lily Hoshikawa from Zombieland Saga)

Hiura might be intended to be a crossdresser, but he sure is written like a trans girl. 99% Chance the author has never heard of trans people (no such thing as LGBT education in Japan), wouldn't be the first time a Japanese author writes good trans rep without being aware of trans people as a concept.

That's a pretty big stretch. There was a recent LGBT rights bill that got roasted from both the left and right, but it made trans rights really center stage for a minute around the G7 conference. Banjo may not personally know any trans folk, but the idea that they arent aware of the concept is far fetched in the modern era

 

[Trevoga]

You have liked comments on this thread supporting transphobic rhetoric and shown disdain for people trying to call out basic slurs against trans people. I feel like it can't be any more clear than that what is going on here.

They also liked comments from "the other side" of this weird "debate" where most people seem to get at least something wrong. Ones that seem to support the idea of trans Hiura in the future, when it'll apparently feel less forced.

 

[Ragerfan]

Trap is a slur. Even if you use it to refer to crossdressers, since it implies they're doing it maliciously to trick people.

(Femboy is fine, people who call it a slur usually happens because most people who use the term in weaboo territories are transphobes)

Weaboos also love to pretend like an explicitly trans character isn't trans. (See: Lily Hoshikawa from Zombieland Saga)

Hiura might be intended to be a crossdresser, but he sure is written like a trans girl. 99% Chance the author has never heard of trans people (no such thing as LGBT education in Japan), wouldn't be the first time a Japanese author writes good trans rep without being aware of trans people as a concept.

Yamato from One Piece is a another big example. The amount of misgendering is pretty major for a character that outright states they see themselves as a man

 

[Ragerfan]

Is he? I'm not seeing it at all. Completely agree with the rest of your post (trimmed for readability), but I don't agree at all on this part, he seems to be explicitly not trans.

he isnt trans (though based on this chapter, he doesnt seem himself as entirely male either, so who knows where the coin will land. Maybe in gender neutral land?) but a lot of his arc has basically been the ideal fantasy version of a trans coming out. You more or less pass, people are accepting and even encouraging about it, and there arent major issues with school, work, or family.

 

[BraveDude8]

@BraveDude8
Ah, okay so the one group who can't be generally insulted is nazis then? When I said "literally" I meant literally rhetoric to shut up endangered minorities.

You have liked comments on this thread supporting transphobic rhetoric and shown disdain for people trying to call out basic slurs against trans people. I feel like it can't be any more clear than that what is going on here.

No, I'm saying that calling people Nazis is a personal attack, because Nazis are bad.

There is no "transphobic rhetoric" in this thread - people stating that a character who says "that doesn't actually make me a girl" and "even though I am a boy" probably isn't transgender isn't transphobia, it's an observation, and one that you're all free to discuss without attacking eachother over differing interpretations.

 

[Trevoga]

he isnt trans (though based on this chapter, he doesnt seem himself as entirely male either, so who knows where the coin will land. Maybe in gender neutral land?) but a lot of his arc has basically been the ideal fantasy version of a trans coming out. You more or less pass, people are accepting and even encouraging about it, and there arent major issues with school, work, or family.

That's an ideal fantasy version of any kind of coming out. Except for the inherent part about passing, but that's something one includes if one views the coming out as that of a trans person.

 

[MakoMachine]

So, just to make sure you know, transve- is an outdated term and is entirely a slur. Not judging, just informing you and others here.

These are like, literally Nazi arguments here. It basically amounts to "Stay as quiet and out of sight as you can so that we can continue to live like you don't exist or matter." It's not that you respect a quiet trans person. If we can't have a voice in a manga about a young person questioning their preferences like this, you really just don't have us having any rights or voice and wish we would just stop existing at all. So yes, best time to delete this was right after you sent it. Second best is now.

So rule one of being an inclusive ally or at least not an enemy: Don't speak for said minority like you are them. We generally would be absolutely would be fine if Hiura was a crossdresser. Totally okay with that. But that's not what is in front of us, is it? Hiura, so far, is unsure of who they are. Even still, a trans girl getting attached to the character and having some hope that they turn out even more relatable to them is fine, isn't hurting you at all, and they do not deserve to be called a groomer and disgusting for it.


Mods, PLEASE. We need help in this thread. This thread is taking a beautiful, funny story of self discovery and turning it into an artillery shell against trans people.

No, I'm saying that calling people Nazis is a personal attack, because Nazis are bad.

There is no "transphobic rhetoric" in this thread - people stating that a character who says "that doesn't actually make me a girl" and "even though I am a boy" probably isn't transgender isn't transphobia, it's an observation, and one that you're all free to discuss without attacking eachother over differing interpretations.

@BraveDude8
"There is no war in Ba Sing Se"
Dude, this whole thing STARTED with me calling for help against transphobic rhetoric. I am not okay with being people calling large swathes of trans people groomers or trying to tell us we are overreacting or in the wrong when I get vocal against it. I wanted help curbing this obviously offensive language, not another dumb internet fight to prove transphobia exists.

No, the character isn't sure. They are still learning. I am fine ultimately with whatever the character chooses, but you would be ignorant or anti-trans to deny any possibility they are an unrealized trans person at this phase. If you'd ever actually taken time in trans spaces instead of hating us, you'd see that a lot of tans people grapple with enourmous amounts of self-doubt or mistaken conclusions. The average age women are realizing they are trans is in their 20's and the character is like 14 and lives in country that tries it's best to ignore the existance of queer people. The character has so much more exploration to do and we don't know where it will stop at. Yet anybody who talks about any trans parallels gets shit on in these forums.

 

[Jgold101]

Wait so was the official localization changed to make him trans?

 

[ariel_haymarket]

Wait so was the official localization changed to make him trans?

To be honest, no one's really sure what happened beyond an overzealous translator on the publisher side. Read into the story as you like with the raws, though.

 

[JayJay_Tracer]

No, I'm saying that calling people Nazis is a personal attack, because Nazis are bad.

There is no "transphobic rhetoric" in this thread - people stating that a character who says "that doesn't actually make me a girl" and "even though I am a boy" probably isn't transgender isn't transphobia, it's an observation, and one that you're all free to discuss without attacking eachother over differing interpretations.

So you're just gonna ignore the slurs?

 

[JayJay_Tracer]

No, I'm saying that calling people Nazis is a personal attack, because Nazis are bad.

There is no "transphobic rhetoric" in this thread - people stating that a character who says "that doesn't actually make me a girl" and "even though I am a boy" probably isn't transgender isn't transphobia, it's an observation, and one that you're all free to discuss without attacking eachother over differing interpretations.

You're quotes are so cut-off it's like the Bridget thing all over again.

 

[eprson8751427]

only one fricking person even THOUGHT abt non binary... it seems very possible to me tho i do think that if hiura was still cis even after knowing abt gender identity stuff it would be pretty awesome

 

[SilverSupreme]

Too many people are concerned about whether Hiura is trans or cis, but I think people are forgetting that it’s entirely possible to be gender-fluid. A lot of the stuff Hiura is struggling with goes beyond simply how they present or what they wear.
The entire story has seen them struggling with concerns like not being masculine enough or feminine enough and not being sure whether it’d be best to fully commit to one or the other internally as well as externally.

It’s entirely likely that this story will have Hiura settle on their identity as a male crossdresser/femboy, but that doesn’t change that they have a lot of thoughts and concerns that a gender-fluid or non-binary person might have and I think it’s simply a matter of acting on those thoughts or not. They still exist. Hiura, while relatable to trans people, isn’t trans themselves. I don’t think they dislike being male so much as they dislike being held to standards of masculinity that they simply can’t ever fix and feeling lesser.

Even though they’re a fictional character, I’ll be happy as long as they’re happy.

 

[Trazel_Apeally]

There is no "transphobic rhetoric" in this thread -

Definitely is, but it's phrased in the same way bad faith actors tend to deflect so it gets a pass, which whatever it doesn't bother me cause I live with two bad faith actors, what does bother me is saying it doesn't exist.

It is what it is, but I think everyone here is right in their own head so I'll leave the bygones there.

 

[somercet]

It can't be more clear from this chapter that this isn't a trans issue, I have no idea how the localizer managed to claim that they've read ahead and was sure Hiura's a trans girl. This basically blew that possibility out the window.

I would agree but that would be assuming the artist knows anything about GLBT, sex role "non-conformity" (a phenomenon second only to calling women a "minority"), or the massive disinformation polluting the internet from mostly non-trans "trans activists." I've been disappointed by authors pulling irrational rabbits out of their hats in the last third too often.

Also, the artist is either not a parent or seriously did not want to deal with Hiura's mom at all; any real parent would be interrogating that child for three or four days (not to forget the sisters), and would still be concerned.

ETA, THIS CHAPTER: Big speech about being unhappy about being a femme guy.
VERY NEXT CHAPTER: "Actually, I'm just crossdressing to get in this guy's Underoos."
THE ARTIST: "HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK C--KS"

 

[Louveen]

Man, i love how the replies split between toughtful debate and "wild seggs go brr". Of course, as an intelligent and diligent person i shall must say "thee shall seggs when?"