Machikado Mazoku
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Chapter 72 is out and /a/ has a rough translation.
https://desuarchive.org/a/thread/203591588/#203635155
(but we can't say anything about it here because anything that's a chapter
is FORBIDDEN even when marked)
Almost there, June is the month we finally catch up.
https://desuarchive.org/a/thread/203591588/#203635155
(but we can't say anything about it here because anything that's a chapter
spoiler
Almost there, June is the month we finally catch up.
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@thofheinz the way author, heat up the situation and make pour cold water on it. like how he heats up when momo nearly fall to darkness but back off last moment and when lico tried to show her true power and didn't end up in fight.
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So do they actually start a relationship or is it pure bait?
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@JustCallMeDaBoss
This is an ongoing manga smartypants.
This is an ongoing manga smartypants.
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@JustCallMeDaBoss -
This series is straight-up, glorious yuri. Like a lot of literature in the yuri tradition, it may or may not end up depicting a lot of physical affection, but Shamiko and Momo's relationship is profoundly romantic and, in fact, carnal. I don't understand the Kirara hierarchy of "what can be shown," given the existence of Sakura Trick, but my guess is that this particular venue won't allow much. However, as this series goes on, a very strong erotic charge builds up between the main characters, completely clear in authorial intent, expressed through increasingly funny dramatic elements like Shamiko's droolingly inappropriate fetishism of Momo's perfect abs and Momo's absent-minded tendency to get a little free with Shamiko's tail. Increasingly, their attraction to each other emerges in hilarious accidental confessions. And slowly, through the series, a very deep romantic love builds and matures between them.
Their love story provides the core of this series. Uniquely from an artistic point of view, that love is like a switchboard for all kinds of loving relationships it defines and is defined by, namely friends and family and the constant inclusion of new members in a big ball of love. As this happens, a surprising thing occurs that is nonetheless completely logical. The two main characters are endearing "disaster lesbian" tsunderes, not knowing what the hell they are doing with each other, and their friends and even family begin to very obviously know what is happening with them and...encourage them.
Their love also makes them brave and committed, not only for each other but for everyone the two of them love. They become very impressive people because of what they become for each other, and because of this, what they become for other people.
Their love story provides the core of this series. Uniquely from an artistic point of view, that love is like a switchboard for all kinds of loving relationships it defines and is defined by, namely friends and family and the constant inclusion of new members in a big ball of love. As this happens, a surprising thing occurs that is nonetheless completely logical. The two main characters are endearing "disaster lesbian" tsunderes, not knowing what the hell they are doing with each other, and their friends and even family begin to very obviously know what is happening with them and...encourage them.
Their love also makes them brave and committed, not only for each other but for everyone the two of them love. They become very impressive people because of what they become for each other, and because of this, what they become for other people.
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@thofheinz
Thx a lot for the very passionate explanation, so pure bait i see.
Errr this is the series discussion for the latest chapters and all right? Do spoilers matter here?
Again thx for the response.
Thx a lot for the very passionate explanation, so pure bait i see.
lol i know, i know they do love each other but the author hasnt shown/stated it explicitly for whatever reason and that to me is pure bait even if its obvious they love each other and all that its gonna be just hinted at till the end, if anything even happens then, so yeah bait, well i still really like the series so i'll give it a go nothing wrong with bait if its good.
Errr this is the series discussion for the latest chapters and all right? Do spoilers matter here?
Again thx for the response.
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@JustCallMeDaBoss
You cannot determine if something is bait before the series is finished. Plain and simple.
You cannot determine if something is bait before the series is finished. Plain and simple.
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@JustCallMeDaBoss -
In all seriousness, you made me understand something I may have misunderstood all this time.
I always thought that "bait" meant deception, as in a bait-and-switch, promising or suggesting something that wouldn't turn out to be true, like the Kumiko/Reina story in the anime *Hibike Euphonium*. There's no deception in this; it never suggests anything it isn't offering straight up, so I didn't see any bait in it.
I used to be a literature teacher, which makes one a certain kind of stupid. I thought that "yuri" meant that the series belonged to an artistic tradition having to do with the eroticism of female friendship, whether or not it included any particular physical intimacy.
But are you saying that "yuri" is actually a category of EXPECTATIONS REGARDING TAGS? What are those expectations? Hugging, kissing, sex? So a series isn't yuri unless it includes some assortment of those things?
That's why we wind up with shit tags like "shoujo ai."
*
I figured putting spoilers behind the SPOILER button was enough, but it's hard to know around here.
In all seriousness, you made me understand something I may have misunderstood all this time.
I always thought that "bait" meant deception, as in a bait-and-switch, promising or suggesting something that wouldn't turn out to be true, like the Kumiko/Reina story in the anime *Hibike Euphonium*. There's no deception in this; it never suggests anything it isn't offering straight up, so I didn't see any bait in it.
I used to be a literature teacher, which makes one a certain kind of stupid. I thought that "yuri" meant that the series belonged to an artistic tradition having to do with the eroticism of female friendship, whether or not it included any particular physical intimacy.
But are you saying that "yuri" is actually a category of EXPECTATIONS REGARDING TAGS? What are those expectations? Hugging, kissing, sex? So a series isn't yuri unless it includes some assortment of those things?
That's why we wind up with shit tags like "shoujo ai."
*
I figured putting spoilers behind the SPOILER button was enough, but it's hard to know around here.
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@thofheinz
No, your original definition of bait is correct. Yuribait does not have an official definition and thus is used for a variety of things, but by the simple meaning of the word and how it was originally used by the yuri community, it is a bait-and-switch. Lots of yuri subtext, but by the end of the story (or earlier) the girls all end up going out with boys or getting married to men. Some people erroneously use yuribait for subtext stories that have no definitive conclusion either way or for works that they perceive to have yuri subtext and that don't focus on it. It dilutes the term when people do this, but as I said, it isn't exactly well defined. If there is no intent from the author to bait the audience, then it cannot be bait honestly.
Yuri is the depiction of lesbian relationships or love in any form. This includes things where not a single kiss or even sexual act are shared, as long as two girls/women confess their romantic feelings to each other or make it known explicitly in other ways. So let's say MachiMazo ends without them confessing, kissing or in any way acknowleding their feelings. It would then be considered subtext. If Shamiko for some absurd reason is shown to marry a man in the future in some epilogue, it would be yuribait, because as we both agree, the romantic intent betwen ShamiMomo is very obvious here.
No, your original definition of bait is correct. Yuribait does not have an official definition and thus is used for a variety of things, but by the simple meaning of the word and how it was originally used by the yuri community, it is a bait-and-switch. Lots of yuri subtext, but by the end of the story (or earlier) the girls all end up going out with boys or getting married to men. Some people erroneously use yuribait for subtext stories that have no definitive conclusion either way or for works that they perceive to have yuri subtext and that don't focus on it. It dilutes the term when people do this, but as I said, it isn't exactly well defined. If there is no intent from the author to bait the audience, then it cannot be bait honestly.
Yuri is the depiction of lesbian relationships or love in any form. This includes things where not a single kiss or even sexual act are shared, as long as two girls/women confess their romantic feelings to each other or make it known explicitly in other ways. So let's say MachiMazo ends without them confessing, kissing or in any way acknowleding their feelings. It would then be considered subtext. If Shamiko for some absurd reason is shown to marry a man in the future in some epilogue, it would be yuribait, because as we both agree, the romantic intent betwen ShamiMomo is very obvious here.
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@BugDemon -
Okay, that makes perfect sense. It's what makes the Kumiko/Reina resolution so cruel in the anime of Hibike Euphonium. It's not that Reina and Kumiko don't have every right to be heterosexual or bi or whatever; it's just that the straight turns followed some explosively deceptive depictions of lesbian love. (As Reina eye-fucks Kumiko from a couple of inches away, Kumiko says that she is confessing her love to Reina.) Reina and Kumiko drifting apart without making love is not a betrayal in terms of "bait"; Reina suddenly disclosing that she is in love with their sensei certainly is, as far as the anime has seemed to tell the story.
KyoAni had a particularly cruel tendency to do this. They didn't create a forthright and honest yuri until Kobayashi and Her Dragon Maid.
So we're talking about bait as false promises regarding the very nature of the relationship. That explains why Maria-sama ga Miteru is unquestionably yuri; it depicts fierce and complex loves between women but does not promise what it does not provide. Some of the women may go on to marry men or whatever, but you're not led to believe that this isn't possible or even likely in some cases. If Yoko went on to get married, that would be no surprise. If Sei and Kei decided to break up so they could both marry guys...
Is this what you meant?
Okay, that makes perfect sense. It's what makes the Kumiko/Reina resolution so cruel in the anime of Hibike Euphonium. It's not that Reina and Kumiko don't have every right to be heterosexual or bi or whatever; it's just that the straight turns followed some explosively deceptive depictions of lesbian love. (As Reina eye-fucks Kumiko from a couple of inches away, Kumiko says that she is confessing her love to Reina.) Reina and Kumiko drifting apart without making love is not a betrayal in terms of "bait"; Reina suddenly disclosing that she is in love with their sensei certainly is, as far as the anime has seemed to tell the story.
KyoAni had a particularly cruel tendency to do this. They didn't create a forthright and honest yuri until Kobayashi and Her Dragon Maid.
So we're talking about bait as false promises regarding the very nature of the relationship. That explains why Maria-sama ga Miteru is unquestionably yuri; it depicts fierce and complex loves between women but does not promise what it does not provide. Some of the women may go on to marry men or whatever, but you're not led to believe that this isn't possible or even likely in some cases. If Yoko went on to get married, that would be no surprise. If Sei and Kei decided to break up so they could both marry guys...
Is this what you meant?
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@thofheinz
A bit elaborate for a point so simple, but yes. You got the gist of it.
Dragon Maid is only explicitly yuri, because the source material is as well from chapter 1.
A bit elaborate for a point so simple, but yes. You got the gist of it.
In KyoAni's Euphonium case, it is especially vexing to most fans, because the novel which it is based on never had false pretenses. KyoAni made the anime far more sexually charged between the girls than the source material. This baited yuri fans who knew the novels to think they would alter the flow of events, as it is so common in anime. Why else make every interaction romantic? It makes a lot more sense when you see who the advisor for seaosn 1 and the Liz to Ao Tori movie diector were. She has stated in interviews before that she loves portraying platonic relationships from a romantic perspective. She never once intended for any of them to actually be lesbians or fall in love. Not even "It's up to your own interpretation", she just straight up crushed all dreams, even in the movie, which is by far more open ended.
Incidentally, the author after seeing how strong the romantic atmosphere was, and totally unaware that his novels actually did have a hint of that, said that it's completely fine and accepted it. So even by the author's blessing they could have gone yuri. The novels continued of course, but I didn't keep up. Last I read Kumiko broke up/took a break from her boyfriend.
Incidentally, the author after seeing how strong the romantic atmosphere was, and totally unaware that his novels actually did have a hint of that, said that it's completely fine and accepted it. So even by the author's blessing they could have gone yuri. The novels continued of course, but I didn't keep up. Last I read Kumiko broke up/took a break from her boyfriend.
Dragon Maid is only explicitly yuri, because the source material is as well from chapter 1.
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@thofheinz
Kyoani are just the pinnacle of yuribaiters bro its in all their fucking shows, why? I really dont know really, do the people there like it? Does it increase sales? For shits and giggles ? I really couldn't tell you, but its most likely profit i'd guess, and hey theres nothing wrong with that, gotta get the money for their spectacular animation from somewhere.
Still yeah with Kobayashi its different since the source material IS yuri unlike their originals like K-ON where it has a whiff of yuri here and there or as you pointed out Hibike no Euphonium where they just straight up switch out the guy for the girl in certain scenes and it gives everyone a very strong sense of "holy shit are we actually getting yuri" but no, no we're not its just bait, a delicious carrot dangling in front of you to even when it turns out to go nowhere have fans go crazy over theories and make doujins on kumika x reina and go crazy on their figurines, and placate crazy otakus about girls maintaining their "purity" i dont know if you know how crazy that shit is but yeah another entirely different can of worms.
Kyoani are just the pinnacle of yuribaiters bro its in all their fucking shows, why? I really dont know really, do the people there like it? Does it increase sales? For shits and giggles ? I really couldn't tell you, but its most likely profit i'd guess, and hey theres nothing wrong with that, gotta get the money for their spectacular animation from somewhere.
Still yeah with Kobayashi its different since the source material IS yuri unlike their originals like K-ON where it has a whiff of yuri here and there or as you pointed out Hibike no Euphonium where they just straight up switch out the guy for the girl in certain scenes and it gives everyone a very strong sense of "holy shit are we actually getting yuri" but no, no we're not its just bait, a delicious carrot dangling in front of you to even when it turns out to go nowhere have fans go crazy over theories and make doujins on kumika x reina and go crazy on their figurines, and placate crazy otakus about girls maintaining their "purity" i dont know if you know how crazy that shit is but yeah another entirely different can of worms.
Anyways my point is how is that different from this ? Is the promise that they might enter a relationship not what seems to keep a lot of people here? Dont get me wrong even without that this series has a surprisingly deep amount of lore, cool world building and its just plain hilarious, not to mention that all the characters are so fucking likable, but still a lot of people are waiting on that yuri, and for reasons the author will just keep dangling that carrot in front of readers, sure you might think they love each other but its never gonna be stated, same shit as those harem series the guy can never pick a girl cuz then the author cant come up with a story involving a relationship and also you cant introduce new cute rivals and stupid ass situations with the will they/wont they.
Even if at the very end something does happen it doesn't take away the fact that the promise of a yuri relationship has always been used as bait, its very apparent especially in a series like this were you already know both characters have feelings for each other but theyre not admitting it because? Exactly just because its the bait even if its necessary or not.
Bait is just that bait it draws you in and leaves you hoping for it like a dumbass, like a dangling carrot, sure some authors give you the carrot at the end but most just leave you with nothing.
Sure i might eat my words and they start a relationship before the series ends and we get to see them as a couple, you know what everyone wants, and hey i'd be happy with that but if its at ch 90? And still nothing? Yeah not likely i'd guess, if anything does happen it'll probably be at the very end just to leave readers a sense of satisfaction so that they buy the next work, and hey if thats not bait idk what is.
Again i like the series quite a lot even if its just teasing the yuri stuff and it never delivers on it, if it does its just an extra at this point, i can see by BugDemon profile pic that he really enjoys the series but idk why hes getting mad about me calling this bait, "you don't know it hasnt ended yet" yeah bro same to you, it could be bait, it could not, lets hope its not, but cmon man we both know the odds.
I didnt want to reply cuz i knew itd be a long ass rant if you actually read it all, sorry and thx, but i did feel the need to put my 2 cents on what bait is, which cmon it should be obvious "using it wrongly" my ass.
Even if at the very end something does happen it doesn't take away the fact that the promise of a yuri relationship has always been used as bait, its very apparent especially in a series like this were you already know both characters have feelings for each other but theyre not admitting it because? Exactly just because its the bait even if its necessary or not.
Bait is just that bait it draws you in and leaves you hoping for it like a dumbass, like a dangling carrot, sure some authors give you the carrot at the end but most just leave you with nothing.
Sure i might eat my words and they start a relationship before the series ends and we get to see them as a couple, you know what everyone wants, and hey i'd be happy with that but if its at ch 90? And still nothing? Yeah not likely i'd guess, if anything does happen it'll probably be at the very end just to leave readers a sense of satisfaction so that they buy the next work, and hey if thats not bait idk what is.
Again i like the series quite a lot even if its just teasing the yuri stuff and it never delivers on it, if it does its just an extra at this point, i can see by BugDemon profile pic that he really enjoys the series but idk why hes getting mad about me calling this bait, "you don't know it hasnt ended yet" yeah bro same to you, it could be bait, it could not, lets hope its not, but cmon man we both know the odds.
I didnt want to reply cuz i knew itd be a long ass rant if you actually read it all, sorry and thx, but i did feel the need to put my 2 cents on what bait is, which cmon it should be obvious "using it wrongly" my ass.
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@JustCallMeDaBoss
Unfortunately for you, I did read it all.
Unfortunately for you, I did read it all.
What this boils down to is that your definition of bait makes no sense. You think not immediately delivering pay-off for something that is teased is the same as baiting, which is completely ridiculous. By your unbelievably shallow definition there is "Defeat the villain" bait in action shows, because the characters don't immediately defeat the villain of the series for whatever reason. Every romance manga ever written is romance-bait, because the characters dont immediately get together etc etc. Yuribait is supposed to be a scathing term used for really horrible stories that actively trick the audience, which does not apply to your weird definition.
There is such a thing as pacing, character development and theming. MachiMazo is not a romance manga. It does not revolve around romance and romance is not the 'goal'. It is just another gear that's slowly turning in the background. You honestly just sound like you are so jaded that anything but instant gratification is a personal attack on you by the author with ill intent and money as the ulterior motive.
You should realize yourself that saying "You don't know either" makes no sense here when YOU are the one who claimed it is bait in the first place. We indeed don't know and I am not so arrogant to make a definitive statement, unlike a certain someone. The "odds" are highly stacked in my favor btw, because the likelihood that this will end up being actual bait (as in the bait-and-switch sense, not your erroneous definition) are miniscule. It may end in subtext, open ended as to how their feelings will play out, but that is not bait, it's simply a stylistic choice. I am fairly confident Ito will not shy away from a definitive conclusion though.
The only thing obvious here is that you have very little patience and pretty low confidence, considering you hid that reply to me in a spoiler addressed to someone else. Real cool.
There is such a thing as pacing, character development and theming. MachiMazo is not a romance manga. It does not revolve around romance and romance is not the 'goal'. It is just another gear that's slowly turning in the background. You honestly just sound like you are so jaded that anything but instant gratification is a personal attack on you by the author with ill intent and money as the ulterior motive.
You should realize yourself that saying "You don't know either" makes no sense here when YOU are the one who claimed it is bait in the first place. We indeed don't know and I am not so arrogant to make a definitive statement, unlike a certain someone. The "odds" are highly stacked in my favor btw, because the likelihood that this will end up being actual bait (as in the bait-and-switch sense, not your erroneous definition) are miniscule. It may end in subtext, open ended as to how their feelings will play out, but that is not bait, it's simply a stylistic choice. I am fairly confident Ito will not shy away from a definitive conclusion though.
The only thing obvious here is that you have very little patience and pretty low confidence, considering you hid that reply to me in a spoiler addressed to someone else. Real cool.
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