Maou-sama no Machizukuri! ~Saikyou no Dungeon wa Kindai Toshi~ - Vol. 1 Ch. 6 - Beyond Despair

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

Yes and no. At first glance it may seem the aggressor has the first move, since they make the first move in the actual battle.
But like I've stated before:
Preperations are also a tactic and plays a huge role. And intel about the other force can go both ways.

Just becuase you're attacking, doesn't mean you can change your strategy into endless of different means or methods, if you don't have the necerssary resource for it; it being money, time, material, men and so on. Or in these cases, the necerssary magic..

Just because you get certain intel, doesn't mean you've the means to change and adapt the best plan/method for it, just because you're the agressor. At best you could postpone the invasion or decide that the resource you have is still enough.

And for the rest; then what was the discussion about then?
It seemed to me that you didn't like the idea that one might only be able to further the discussion with basic logic, meaning magic would become null (unless proven otherwise)..

 

[gaigous]

@Southpaw

I agree, the die is cast and all that Jazz, here, let me give a play by play to better illustrate my view:

Me:

I can't think of a way to nullify the danger of a tight corridor without making it completely meaningless to use against me, ways to do that off the top of my head: blowing the entire building up, phasing through solid matter, using some kind of earth magic to create a sturdy wall to plow through the hallway, conjuring a tornado/hurricane to ravage the insides, chuck several explosive fireballs until the enemy has been incinerated, flood the hallway by conjuring constant large streams of water and then using lightning/thunder magic or ice magic to shock or freeze it.

You:

1) Maybe there is magic to nullify explosive and the destruction of the dungeon? Look, he blew up mines and the tunnel still stands.
2) Maybe there is magic that prevents people from phasing through the walls?
3) Maybe different traps that would prevent the stonewall to advance too far? And heck, how about the other way around?
She advance with the army, suddenly a stonewall appears that push the army back against a pitfall trap that activated after they had passed it?
4) Allow me to be lazy. But what if HE had a tornadotrap ready? She rush with the army, boom, sudden tornado!
5) Well, fireballs works like projectiles, the same concept as arrows, or as the bullets he used... But IF we should assume that his fireprojectiles are as strong as her for the sake of it; he could had just simply built something similar to those 'arrow loops' on forts?
His army is protected, hers wouldn't.
6) Maybe an advanced drainage system that allows the dungeon to not become flooded?

Me:

You would have to be near-omniscient(quantum supercomputer) to predict every single method employed by your opponent ahead of time, and it might as well be a non-magical dungeon at that point since no one can use magic effectively when it's rendered useless, just a bunch of archers and swordsman, regular medieval warfare.

I did not mean to say that the aggressor would shift tactics randomly mid-operation, my point was that the defender could not predict the method employed by the aggressor when magic is involved, you have a fireball, a tornado/hurricane, a lightningbolt, a stonewall, etc, they all destroy the target in a different way.

The primary disadvantage of those hallways is that all those golems are bunched together on the other end, they are bowling pins to a mages bowling ball.


I have no problems using history as a guideline to help better predict the outcome of a battle in a fantasy world, what i have a problem with is using history alone to predict the outcome, I need to know the fundamentals of its magic system, please don't conflate that with me disliking the use of basic logic.

We don't really know much about the details of that worlds magic system other than some of the characters specific abilities, I mean, [Create] and [Wind], how the hell am I supposed to know what that means? I can make guesses until the sun comes down.

We talked about her clones multiple times, she said she could make as many as she wants, but what are their limits? What are the original's abilities? One of them made a barrier, but is that all it could do? How much of the original's abilities does each clone retain? Do the clones retain anything than their physical attributes? Do their bodies stay after they die, or do they fade away shortly afterward?

And like you said, she cloned her army right outside the dungeon, does that mean she can't do so while in another dungeons domain? Do dungeons even have domains to interfere with the use of another demon lords power or can they just do whatever they want in someone else's dungeon?

I hope this gave insight into my weird resistance to historical parallels when it comes to fantasy.

 

[Shiki-kan]

To be fair, the LN goes into a little more depth about the fight and gives two useful details: he deliberately taunts her before and just after the fight starts in order to make her commit her forces in an impulsive way which benefits him, and he delays entering her dungeon until it's clear that his defence is working as intended, so that if she managed to do something unexpected they could still move to defend their crystal. So it's not that he has complete confidence that he's thought of everything she might try, just that he reckons he's played to his strengths sufficiently and understands her weaknesses sufficiently, whilst also doing exactly what she doesn't and checking his assumptions.

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

.......
And we are back here again......

Are there ways to overcome the narrow hall? Well yes, yes there are...
BUT EVERYTHING CAN BE COUNTERED WITH THE RIGHT MEANS, SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT!?!

I am seriously getting sick of all your "what ifs"....
You sound like a fucking child.
"Well, what if she had:
tornadoes
fireballs
infinite clones
GOD HIMSELF
SUPERMAN
fireballs
Saitama aka Caped Baldy aka One Punch man
a mecha suit
bulletproofvests"

Well, DID SHE HAS ACCESS TO ALL OF THESE!?
SHE CAN'T USE INFINTE METHODS OF ATTACKING IF THOSE THINGS AREN'T AVAILABLE TO HER!

YOU CAN MAKE A THOUSAND LONG LIST ON HOW TO COUNTER THIS PLAN WITH ALL KINDS OF MEANS!
SO FUCKING WHAT!?

What is wrong with you!?
Never in may life have I said that his plan is 'foolproof' and can't be countered in a theoretical sense
I even admited sending infinite clones may have done the trick... IF she could do that..
A tactic doesn't have to be perfect to work, a tactic doesn't need to 'foolproofed' and be able counter EVERYTHING do be considered viable.
Ever heard of the term META = "Most Effective Tactic Available? Do you even know what this fucking means?
Do you know what the word AVAILABLE MEAN!!!!??!!? THEY BOTH HAVE LIMITS AND NEEDED TO CREATE THE MOST SUITIBLE PLAN ACCORDINGLY!

What you have essentially been trying to do is to UNLIMIT the methods she could deploy as an attacker, while he still has his narrow path and guns...
Do you not realize how unfair you're being here?
You can't unlimit her possible means to attack while still having his possible means of defending static.

I did not mean to say that the aggressor would shift tactics randomly mid-operation

Oh fuck off. So in her case we should imagine she has all the time and resources in the world pre-fight, while he is still defending mid-fight....
You're so fucking unfair in your line of thinking. Remember when you did a list of what she could do and I tried to turn it around and you didn't like that?
Only you can dwell on the unlimited possibilites right?

Like a fucking kid.
Me: I shoot you
You: Nuh uh, I have force field! I shoot you now!
Me: That wasn't a part of this... But oh well, I also have a force field then
You: Nuh uh, only I have force field! You aren't allowed to have one!

 

[silverden]

@gaigous @Southpaw 103? 103 comments based on one set of tactics? wow, just wow.

 

[Southpaw]

@silverden

Because this retard is just running around in circles..
I for example thought he was done with his one sided bullshit where the girl had unlimited means, with a bunch of "ifs" because "magic and dungeons", without logic and reasons...
Only for him to still spew this shit...

For fucks sake, I even gave in and admitted that there are ways to overcome the MC's dungeon with a bunch of "ifs". I NEVER SAID THE PLAN WAS FLAWLESS!
And he still try to force the "what if" on me.
WHAT DOES HE WANT ME TO DO HERE!? I think he is just ticked off that I said that common logic until proven otherwise, should take priority when discussing different tactics, even in fantasy, because the "potential" of unkown magic can go both ways in an argument... Meaning it's pointless either way...

ANYONE COULD COME UP WITH MADE UP REASONS TO OVERCOME THAT DUNGEON! SO WHO GIVES A SHIT!?
IF SHE HAD SAITMA, THEN SHE WOULD NEVER LOSE TO THOSE PESKY GUN!

Sorry, he just piss me off.
Anyway, I'm done. This moron can keep buffing this girls made up and bullshit abilites all by himself.

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

I need to know the fundamentals of its magic system, please don't conflate that with me disliking the use of basic logic.

And yet you keep spewing up bullshit abilites that non of us has seen, just to make a case against the common logic.
Good job moron!

There is a reason why I wrote:
common logic + ma/gic > ma/gic.

If we don't know the magic cap or setting, then both of us should be able to use it when arguing, thus cancelling them out.
But no... Only you are allowed to do that right?
So what's the fucking point!?
OF COURSE YOU CAN OVERCOME LOGIC WITH ONESIDED BULLSHIT!

AND I HAVE ALWAYS WRITTEN: "until proven otherwise" meaning I never said magic couldn't overwrite the disadvantages, only that there is no point relying on magic as an argument if we don't know how it works! Or at least PROVE your point! Have you been able to prove any of these so called abilites? NO YOU HAVEN'T! You haven't proven that those abilites are FUNDAMENTAL!

You try to argue against common logic, with on made up bullshit..
Are you for real?! How can you not understand how fucking stupid that is?

 

[jorgeDS]

To be fair that's a pretty lazy shooting range, you could have it be narrow so they can't dodge and have shooting slits on the walls and ceiling for skeletons to support the shooting. Also if she had different powers I imagine the MC would have to come up with a different dungeon, so it's pointless to argue on what ifs.

 

[gaigous]

@Southpaw

Dude, we have had multiple Q&As during this conversation, and the context of each question has changed multiple times, so of course, I'm going to give a different answer to each one.

When you asked me how I would deal with a corridor of death in a fantasy setting where the defenders have medieval weapons and no guns, of course, I went with elemental magic(fireballs, earth walls, lightning bolts, etc).

When you confined the question to what we saw of the wind demon lords abilities, I suggested using the clones from a safe distance.

We talked about how magic without any kind of system to explain it is the equivalent of a fight in Dragon Ball Z(Endless power-ups and counters), and I agreed wholeheartedly.

I don't know why you keep saying "common logic + ma/gic > ma/gic" when I didn't disagree the first time and agreed the two times after that.

Alright man, you're back to insults again, I'm sorry this conversation has angered you, but you're way out of line with that crap.

 

[gaigous]

@silverden @jorgeDS

Most of the games I play are casual/turn-based these days, and I'm ADD asf, so I usually have a youtube video, multiple forums, and comment sections open at the same time, and any conversation about something fantasy-related that involves abstract-reasoning is usually fun for me.

 

[jorgeDS]

@gaigous I thought you guys were arguing weather she could have won it, not if there is a way to counter it with any kind of magic. In which case the most obvious choice is also having creation magic and sending your own soldiers, or using invisibility magic to send a single guy to destroy the thingy.

 

[Ibri]

Boring. Yes yes you have modern weapons and your opponent is an idiot, don't think I will bother with anymore chapters. I guess it might just be this conflict but nothing at this point has given me reason to be optimistic that more able enemies will provide more interesting matches.

 

[gaigous]

@jorgeDS I honestly don't even know for sure at this point, from my perspective we've been having a dissertation about the same three questions with variations in context, with some things being addressed or just abandoned from a lack of core info, clarification on what each side meant or which answer was in response to which question was needed multiple times, yadda yadda, you know, the usual forum debate, this one just happened to take place here...

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

When you asked me how I would deal with a corridor of death in a fantasy setting where the defenders have medieval weapons and no guns, of course, I went with elemental magic(fireballs, earth walls, lightning bolts, etc).

Quote me. I am pretty sure that I've NEVER asked how YOU would deal with this personally, but how SHE would deal with it even without guns, and with the means SHE HAD. Because what would be the point with a complete random "what ifs"? As the point was about the danger of narrow paths in this case.
So what started to piss me off is your constant attempt to add new unfounded power ups to her. Especially since I time and time again had added the question: Was those abilites AVAILABLE? In which you still ignored and continued to add to your list...
But fucking quote me then!

I don't know why you keep saying "common logic + ma/gic > ma/gic" when I didn't disagree the first time and agreed the two times after that.

Then why the constant downplay on common logic, while continuing to add new and more unfounded bullshit as a "counter" as a reason not to trust common logic?
Therefore my question:
What is your problem!?
But as you should know... Even IF a magic is added to overcome the disadvantages, it still doesn't change the core logic, as it in any case would work more as excepetion to the rule and not break it completly.
As I've gotten the feeling you don't really get that with your constant 'subtile" attempts to, once again, downplay the importance of core logic even here...

Whatever, have fun. Either I asked wrong (at first), or you never understood what was written. So quote me to prove I was the one wrong in this final topic. And lets both move on.

 

[gaigous]

@Southpaw

I already proposed a solution to the corridor for her, I said it like 3-4 times, it involved her wind clones, you seemed dissatisfied with that.

That would explain your growing frustration with my responses, I thought we had moved on to discussing the strategic worth of a corridor in a fantasy setting like 5 to 7 posts ago, it was a fun thought experiment while it lasted, even though it was basically me just talking to my interpretations of your replies...

I think you have it backward, you need to stop downplaying magic as a solution, it's not a question of there not being enough logic in a setting, but instead is there too much magic, hence the low-fantasy reference however many posts ago.

I see. I'm sorry this wasn't a happy conversation for you, my apologies for the inconvenience.

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

> Claims that I asked something.
> I asked for proof/qoutation
> No quote provided...

You in a a fucking nutshell...
You intellectual-lazy clown.
Troughout this whole conversation, you have provided NOTHING to strenghten your points.

> I provided THREE different battles to back up a FACT; you weren't satisfied, claimed it was a debate, and shoot it down with a mere " because dungeon".
> I time after time, was mentioning parts of the manga to provide my point of her as a character and abilites.
You didn't even bother to reread the manga until I forced you because you clearly argued from memory...
> You mentioned "windclones", I said that it was indeed feasible, IF she could do that, and I time after time, pointed to the manga that she most likely couldn't produce an infinite stream of them during a battle, since she obviously wouldn't rely on her beloved "children" if she actually could do that.
AND NOW YOU ACT LIKE I WAS THE ONE ACTING WRONG THERE!? WHEN I HAVE BEEN THE ONE THAT ACTUALLY ARGUED WITH THE RELEVANT MANGA IN MIND! AND PROVIDED FOR MY POINTS, TIME AFTER TIME, WHILE YOU DIDN'T!

I already proposed a solution to the corridor for her, I said it like 3-4 times, it involved her wind clones,you seemed dissatisfied with that.

EXACTLY YOU ABSOLUTE DUMBFUCK! CAN YOU UNDERSTAND HOW THIS PISS ME OFF!?
You throw in some absolute bulllshit power up, I actually refer to the manga to make you understand that you're talking from your ass. AND YOU STILL MENTIONED IT "3-4 TIMES" MORE! AND STILL HAVE THE NERV TO ACT LIKE I WAS THE ONE THAT WAS OBSTINATE!?

You are so fucking retarded beyond belief.

 

[gaigous]

@Southpaw

> Claims that I asked something.
> I asked for proof/quotation
> No quote provided...

You never explicitly asked the question, we both expressed our positions on the topic, so I just assumed(wrongly) we were done with that particular portion of the debate.

You linked historic battles, I disagreed with using them as evidence given how little we know about that worlds magic system. How is an argument about a subject/topic not debating something?

You quoted parts of her character and abilities because we don't know anything else, as did I, it was a fun argument.

It slipped my mind, you made me realize that. I apologized for my ignorance and felt embarrassed for making a fool out of myself, I then reread the available chapters, and rejoined the debate.

I never agreed or disagreed with your conjecture, I simply proposed another possibility:

That is an interpretation of what happened, I view it as her not copying more for whatever reason rather than a lack of the ability to do so, I don't even think it was a thought in her mind, to be honest.
I believe your position on it was that if she didn't do it when she could or should have it meant that she was unable to summon more, correct?

I have my own position on the subject of her clones, to view that as me acting like you're wrong is a bit of a projection on your part.

Whatever points that were made throughout this debate were ones based on incomplete information, but you knew that already.

...Ok, you're probably gonna be mad about this, but I honestly broke out in laughter at being called a dumbfuck in all caps.

We both have a position, and we both think we're right, how are we not being obstinate?

We're all retarded if you ask me.

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

When you asked me how I would deal with a corridor of death in a fantasy setting

You never explicitly asked the question, we both expressed our positions on the topic, so I just assumed(wrongly) we were done with that particular portion of the debate.

You're fucking garbage. Your words have no value.

NOT ONLY did I use 3 historical battles to strenghten THE FACT that COMMON LOGIC is that narrow paths aren't good for big NUMBERS, I EVEN mentioned things in this MANGA that do support my claim why it was relevant EVEN HERE and NOW. As this was a critism for her tactic, which YOU DEFENDED FROM THE BEGINNING!!
I can't believe that you're so fucking retarded to understand, that I can feel your salt of being such a failure that you decided to shift the the setting from this perticular manga and tactic which WAS THE TOPIC, to an overall unknown fantasy setting with endless of means just to feel smart.
Hence why I said: "By your logic, eveything is useless, even guns, becuase eveything can be overwritten"
And that is why I tried to overexaggerate your point by mentioning Superman and Saitama; since what is the point of even using logic when the writing can go anywhere in order to overwrit it..
It's easy to overwrit common logic with endless means, so what did you try to accomplish?!

And do you honestly believe one to forget an usefull ability like that...? When one had calmed down and tried to make a final push?
Ask yourself, WHAT seems more LIKELY;
She forgetting a VERY uselfull ability, or that she maybe didn't have one to begin with?
I never rejected the idea that she might have forgotten, as I did say most likely. However, when you still throw a very UNLIKELY scenario at my face "3-4 times" more, and like it was a fact and I'm wrong.. Can you not understand how this is one thing that could piss me off?!

And you laughed? You've no right to laugh at others about anything, you absolute disgrace of a retard. If I was you I would take long hard look at myself. Because just look at you:
> You're so fucking pathetically stupid that you didn't realized that maybe, maybe you shouldn't argue from memory alone and actually read the relevant chapters.
> Fails to provide anything to back your claims, and even tried to overwrite a whole known fact and common logic backed up with historical events AND THIS MANGA ITSELF, with a mere "because dungeon" and "unknow magic setting". Which it wasn't......
> Claimes that we shouldn't rely on common logic and historical events "alone" "because unknown magic"... When the mentor IN THE MANGA did give her credit for the very exact common logic. Something I've pointed out mulptiple times since it supports my claim.....
> Claimes one thing, and when I asked for proof and failed to provide it, decided like a pathetic rat change your stance instead of owning up to your word.
> Tried to overwrit the importance of core logic by changing the magic setting to 'endless'... Which serves what purpose?! With endless means, nothing is safe! THIS is also a common logic, of course you can overcome any danger with endless magicwritting. But even then, it doesn't change the fact that it's still by COMMON LOGIC is still dangerous...
Seriosuly, what did you try to accomplish with something so pointless? I even always acknowledged that "ifs and maybes" could do the trick, and you yourself have mentioned several times you don't like "overpowered" magic yourself... And yet you go on and on and on....

This discussion in a nutshell:
Me: Narrow paths is dangerous, here you've 3 examples to back that common logic up.
You: HURRICANES!
Me: Uh.. Sure, hurricanes could do the trick.. But could she create them?
You: HURRICANES!
Me: Ah yes... They could overcome the danger of the narrow paths... So what? It isn't relevant to the manga, and absolute anything can be overcomed with endless means, so this is pointless...
You: HURRICANES!
Me: Ok, now you're just being an annoyance.
You: HURRICANES!
Me: STOP BEING A DUMBFUCK!
You: Lmao, this guy salty thanks to my intelluctual way of thinking and arguing!

Seriously, laugh all you want. But you can't be so dumb that you can't see why I'm fucking pissed at your retarded ass.

 

[banjomarx]

@Southpaw dude u need to chill the fuck out

 

[Southpaw]

@banjomarx

And you need to get a brain.
Seriously; who tells someone to "chill the fuck out" when the discussion is clearly 2 days cold...?

And if you didn't get it from my last reply that summarized the conversation, explaining my position, I at least had every right to get pissed at this guy.
Don't act like you've some authority to decide when other people can get mad, when it at least took me some time to get flared up. Unlike you that started to insult me out of the blue.
Fucking hypocrit.