Maou-sama no Machizukuri! ~Saikyou no Dungeon wa Kindai Toshi~ - Vol. 1 Ch. 6 - Beyond Despair

[gaigous]

@Southpaw

I did indeed address other peoples points, some of their arguments were the same as your own, I'm guessing you haven't read them.

Those three dungeon floors were straight featureless hallways, if there were no guns, they would be designed with traps and other such things to give the MC an advantage, you don't need to cite history to understand Dungeons.

You need to pay attention to context, I assumed(wrongly) that my points were self-explanatory.

...Those were replenishable clones, and If you've played an RTS like Starcraft or Warcraft before, what do you do with a cheap unit that has high mobility?

Alright man, I've tried to have an honest discourse, but these insults are beneath you, please stop.

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

My points has had similarites, but my main points has been different.
Why do you think I myself adressed yours and Narfs points seperately?
Like you still haven't answered me how you think her light/cheap mobile troop would fair if they faced agains more "primitive" weapons like javelins, 'arrows', pikes, and different kinds of traps in that narrow path...

I used REAL examples for why pushing a huge army down a narrow path is a huge mistake, because it has a very real outcome... Guns or no guns. You can't just brush it off because "dungeons".... They still follow a certain logic you know....

"...Those were replenishable clones"....

> Lost half of them gaining nothing. As she didn't change her tactic at all.
> DIDN'T REPLENISH them...
> Lost the other half of them since she used the same rush tactic...
> Had to rely on her core troop/"children" despite clearly didn't wanted to nor had the intention to do so...

Once again, you clearly have problems reading and understanding what is going on. You can't claim they were "replenishable" when she DIDN'T replenish them IF SHE COULD AND WANTED TO!
Once again, stop basing your arguments on things that haven't happened!
My insults just keep getting more warrented...

Please answer me now, not only as a proof that you're reading properly on what I've written, but also because I need to know... Are you arguing from memory, or have you reread the relevant chapters recently?
If you don't answer, I will have it confirmed that you're waste of time since you don't actually bother yourself to read things through..
So why should I bother and waste my time on an intellectual lazy clown?

 

[gaigous]

@Southpaw

I apologize for misunderstanding your intent, I didn't initially understand that you wanted each point of logic laid out in my own words, now I don't mean any offense by this, but I'm just really not used to a debate where the other party doesn't make logical inferences.

I assume she'd win through force of numbers, they're replenishable after all, but I honestly have no idea what their offensive capabilities are, we didn't really get to see them do much of anything, probably some kind of basic wind-based offensive magic, a lightweight spear and/or sword, and a small shield, like a buckler or something.

A dungeon is insanely malleable, there's an almost infinite number of ways to design one in a fantasy setting, but you raised a very good point that I hadn't thought of earlier, she can astral project and scout out his dungeon, so making a labyrinth filled with traps would be pointless because she would know where they all are, so a simple corridor forces her to take one path forward which he can booby trap at his leisure.

I really don't like using historical references as something other than a guideline for thought when it comes to fantasy, fortunately, we aren't using it as an exact comparison here.

She lost half of them to gunfire, they died instantly, so she sends in an Astral Projection to find out what happened, sees the result but doesn't know what caused it, a few others come in and get shredded, so now she knows the cause, and is frightened/shocked out of her mind at how useless her clones are, from that point forward she lost all control.

I was indeed replying from memory, I see now that she did not intend to use them as scouts, but instead human-wave tactics to overwhelm him, I would have had three go scout and a fourth follow from farther behind to report back in case anything happened, but I would use an infinite resource like those clones as early and often as possible, as long as they were even minimally effective.


@Talh @Vasqueztion @Southpaw

..............DERP!

Wow, I feel so embarrassed now.

I had such an image built up off of her actions without the character behind them, now I wish my mental image of her character was her actual character...

Do any of you know if the LN was any better, like, was this just a shitty representation of her or is she just a redshirt for the MC to steamroll through and through?

My sincerest apologies for being such an ignorant, unintentional ass to all three of you.

 

[Shiki-kan]

To throw my own points into the mix here (this has been interesting to read) - Her real failing is of arrogance and hubris. As someone with an elemental origin, she's heralded as someone of greatness and certain to be powerful and important in the future... and she let it go to her head. She judged Procell by his appearances rather than taking the time to check her assumptions, she ignored hints that she was wrong, and these are behaviours that continue on to her battle. She's so assured of her own abilities she doesn't bother to actually make sure she's fighting the battles she assumes she is. Her Mentor knows it will be a good experience for her because she needs to experience losing, and moreover getting her ass kicked.

Procell's dungeon does indeed play to his strengths, but it's hardly foolproof. The golems need to reload, and their weapons do overheat. the gas could easily be cleared by any of her wind monsters. Mines are single-use each. I think later on he had flamethrowers in the walls, but they're also pretty easy to defeat with wind shields. She could have made a significantly better showing of herself, and possibly even have won if her tactical acumen was high enough. Her utter drubbing is entirely due to her overconfidence and lack of mental flexibility.

EDIT: To be clear, these are personality flaws she deomonstrates immediately upon her introduction at the party, and they carry through to the fight.

Spoiler

She does get better though. She learns the correct lessons from the loss, and becomes a good ally of Procell. Sadly, Procell goes on to just become more and more a twonk. I've actually dropped this because he's just so annoying to read. This series deserves a better lead character >.>

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

Don't become sensible now, you will just make me feel bad after all my insults (even if the were warranted at the time)...
However, to make things easier for what you've written, I will respond to each paragraph in order. And put it in spoilers becasue it became kinda long..

Spoiler

1) I'm sorry, I might've misunderstood or you just wrote it wrong... But are you implying that I was the one that didn't use logical inference?
Almost all my points followed that rule.. Not you...
I mean, heck, just look at this. You admited that you argued from the memory. I on the other hand reread it from the start and argued what everything meant and now forced you to actually reread it... My first points (that you never adressed) was about her being chocked and what that meant.... YOU were the one that didn't bother about the actual premise and danced around it... Not me...

2) But as the premise has shown us, they aren't (or at least aren't as quickly) replenishable as to actually be reliable in numbers. Nor do they have wind-sheilds to be able to protect themselves.. Something I've tried to point out from the start...
That has been ONE of my biggest points.
He gave his troops guns, she made them "rush B".... Tactics also lies in preperations, Something she clearly didn't do.

But like I also have pointed out, numbers is nothing in small spaces.
Btw, just because, but you should check out the movie 300. I know the movie(/comic) has taken liberties, but it's still based on a REAL event. I know you claimed that without guns the plan to force a larger army into a small space, would be "retarded". But it's still an awsome movie that you should check out....
(Hint, despite all this, I still can't get over that comment of yours, especially since it has nothing to do with the premise here but with actual facts and logic)...

3) That one wasn't me. I agreed with the guys point. But I never brought it up since someone else did... Thus I felt like I didn't needed to.

4) Fantasy still follows a certain extent of logic. Hence why I did mention before that this chapter actually adressed my point.
That she had built her dungeon after her own "angels" strenght. Which was the ONE smart thing she did do.
But it also shows us they opposite should act like a weakness.
(Once again, I have done nothing but built my arguments around the premise and its logical meaning)

5) It took you this long to understand the importance to factcheck your source of claims huh?....................

6) Sure.

7-8) You feel embarrased...? Yeah... You should

9) Sorry, I've only read the manga. But this could most likely be the case.

 

[Southpaw]

@Shiki-kan

I must say that I agree with you.
And your point of it not being foolproofed sounds indeed logical.

Even the manga seemed to adress that, since he did seem troubled with how he should build the most effcient dungeon, despite having guns.
So interesting thoughts. I must admit I was too focused on what the girl did wrong on a basic level, I never thought how far she could had maybe advanced...

Her winning though.. I think not.
Wish to debate with me on this?
As you can see, I've no life...

1) If my memory serves me right. I think the tactic is to let them fire in shifts. Meaning when one reload, the other shoots and so on. But my thought is that the ammo must still in the end, be finite...
2) Maybe an andvanced cooling system? In the end magic do exist in this world. So maybe he himself (or more likely his dwarf) could have found some magic for that problem?
3) Well, that clone pegasus did clear that one so... Seems about right.
4) Yeah, mines must indeed be finite. Or else he could just had stacked those...
5) Did he use flamethrowers? But I do believe they might have been useless as well if they had been used.

 

[gaigous]

@Southpaw

I meant Logical inference from the context of the replies in this back and forth, not the logical inference of the content in the manga, let me elaborate a little more:

You wanted me to parse my previous answers because you felt they did not qualify as proper answers to the questions you posed, and I felt the answers were self-explanatory, meaning from my perspective there was a lack of logical inference on your end.

That is an interpretation of what happened, I view it as her not copying more for whatever reason rather than a lack of the ability to do so, I don't even think it was a thought in her mind, to be honest.
I believe your position on it was that if she didn't do it when she could or should have it meant that she was unable to summon more, correct?

When I said I would use human wave tactics it was under the premise that they didn't have guns, and that there was a single entrance/exit I could sit back and funnel the optimal amount of copies into, I wouldn't overflow the tunnel with bodies, this isn't World War Z.

Don't get carried away lol, the logic behind using a historic battle with parallels to a fantasy battle to judge the outcome is sound, but that is under the assumption that everything is a known or close to a known quantity, meaning no truly unknown variables.

Magic does follow a logic in most works, and magic that uses the traditional fantasy elements tend to be very easy to predict, but once you have to factor in crap like the MCs creation power, you start needing things like a quantum supercomputer to predict events with any level of accuracy, granted the MC himself will probably just make modern military stuff with a fantasy twist instead of using the fullest extent of his imagination, but the utility of the power itself would change greatly depending on who the user is.

Originally, meaning yesterday, I did skim to the parts necessary, but I should have read the whole thing over again.

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

Okey, thank you elaborating. I had my suspecions that it was like that you meant it, but wasn't sure.
But indeed, one can sometimes become too lazy when one's point seem so obvious to oneself..

And no, I can get carried away here. Because just like I've stated before:
Fantasies still follow a huge proportion of common logic.
Even this manga adressed her building her own dungeon right, by taking the terrain into consideration.
Because, if fantasies defies common logic too much, we can't relate. Since most could be boiled down to:
"Why did that (not) work?" "'Cuz magic! I ain't have to explain shit"... Worldbuilding ain't fun if we don't know where the fundation starts. Magic still needs to follow rules. Magic in of itself, as a concept doesn't change the fact that having an army walking down a narrow path is dangerous (just because I can, another example; "battle" of Teutoburg Forest), no, a specific magic has to be introduced (sooner or latter) and whose abilites makes sense to nullify that danger. You can't just say "dungeon" and leave it at that... Especially since well, magic goes BOTH ways, what is to say that there isn't a magic that amplify the danger of narrow paths?
Meaning that basing your argument on unseen magic isn't leading anywhere, since the other person could 'make shit up' as well... Thus until showned otherwise, common logic will and should take priority.

I've yet to seen anything that would nullify the danger of that certain terrain in this manga, or in any other manga. Dungeons has been pretty much dangerous for various reasons, including it being narrow. And once again, this manga has has even proven my point.
She knew that certain terrain was best suited for her "angels", yet rushed half her army into a very narrow path... And the disadvantages of things being narrow has so many downsides that I don't belive only one magic can overwrite it, but several different needs to be created.

I suspect now though however, that when you said the plan was retarded, you meant strictly within this (fantasy) universe correct? As I took it as an "attack" on the tactic as a whole before...

 

[Vasqueztion]

@gaigaous
To me, you were fine (As in conversing with me.) It was rather confusing, your thought process at the time, but most people who comment tend to only comment on the information given to them in the chapter. So I assumed and took your words as nothing more than that. But your main argument/gripe was sound, guns in a fantasy world are bullshit. Masamune learned that the hard way.
This whole "debate" has really blown up. But, at least you admitted your mistake and strive to correct it for the future, I hope.

 

[gaigous]

@Southpaw

I should have put "Don't get carried away at the bottom" since I was responding to this "You feel embarrassed...? Yeah... You should"

I think what frustrates me about using historic battles as an absolute guideline to fantasy warfare is that It's not all that different to "because magic" but instead it's "because history", it seems like all a person has to do is quote a similar battle and everyone should just bow down to the logic of parallels, when in my opinion, there's a lot of potential debate to be had on the topic.

I have a D&D mindset when it comes to magic, so I agree that there needs to be a logic to it, but I was basing my argument on his creation power, are you denying the number of variables that power produces?

I can't think of a way to nullify the danger of a tight corridor without making it completely meaningless to use against me, ways to do that off the top of my head: blowing the entire building up, phasing through solid matter, using some kind of earth magic to create a sturdy wall to plow through the hallway, conjuring a tornado/hurricane to ravage the insides, chuck several explosive fireballs until the enemy has been incinerated, flood the hallway by conjuring constant large streams of water and then using lightning/thunder magic or ice magic to shock or freeze it.

There are an endless number of ways for her to deal with three straight tunnels and some golems armed with medieval weaponry, but you have to understand that the MC would not have designed his dungeon like that if there were no guns, that would be retarded.

I would never call the corridor of death retarded, I was calling the MC retarded for using it in a hypothetical scenario where he did not have guns even though his options for designing a dungeon might as well be endless, I later realized the corridor was still better than creating an intricate labyrinth filled with deadly monsters and traps considering his opponent's ability to scout via astral projection.


@Vasqueztion @Southpaw

All in all, I think my psyche has been scarred with the knowledge that while we all possess common sense, you have to remember to use it first, and I think this conversation would have gone much smoother for all of us if I had just remembered to read the goddamn chapters over again before commenting, I'm only 28 and this whole thing made me feel like I have f*cking Alzheimer's...

 

[TheNewGuy]

page25
oh no this is so sad
siri play despacito plz

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

Well, if you haven't keept count, I so far have mention 3 different real battles where the disadvantage of rushing a huge army down a small path has been far too great. This isn't a debate, this is a know fact....

And here I thought I rounded up my previous point so well... That on common logic should and will take priority. Oh well. Let me "eloborate" further by looking at your examples then shall we?

1) Maybe there is magic to nullify explosive and the destruction of the dungeon? Look, he blew up mines and the tunnel still stands.
2) Maybe there is magic that prevents people from phasing through the walls?
3) Maybe different traps that would prevent the stonewall to advance too far? And heck, how about the other way around?
She advance with the army, suddenly a stonewall appears that push the army back against a pitfall trap that activated after they had passed it?
4) Allow me to be lazy. But what if HE had a tornadotrap ready? She rush with the army, boom, sudden tornado!
5) Well, fireballs works like projectiles, the same concept as arrows, or as the bullets he used... But IF we should assume that his fireprojectiles are as strong as her for the sake of it; he could had just simply built something similar to those 'arrow loops' on forts?
His army is protected, hers wouldn't.
6) Maybe an advanced drainage system that allows the dungeon to not become flooded?

See, this is what I meant that magic goes BOTH WAYS. I bet you could come up with a thousand more examples, but I could as well come up with a thousand different "reasons" why those wouldn't work. Or simply, turn the argument around. Tornado, why only her? Stonewall, why not him as well..?
There is not much of a point basing your arguments on "what if magic" and the power behind it.. When I can use the same "well, what if magic"...
Because I will always turn up with "common logic + because magic", you will just turn up with "because magic".
Do you see the logic here?
"Common logic + ma/gic" > "ma/gic".

 

[gaigous]

@Southpaw

You keep bringing up "huge army, large numbers, small path, tight hallway", I never said anything about forcing an entire army into the corridor at once.

Here's what I said:

When I said I would use human wave tactics it was under the premise that they didn't have guns, and that there was a single entrance/exit I could sit back and funnel the optimal amount of copies into, I wouldn't overflow the tunnel with bodies, this isn't World War Z.

You would have to be near-omniscient(quantum supercomputer) to predict every single method employed by your opponent ahead of time, and it might as well be a non-magical dungeon at that point since no one can use magic effectively when it's rendered useless, just a bunch of archers and swordsman, regular medieval warfare.

There's a name for that, it's called low-fantasy, Game of Thrones was originally considered low fantasy , you have a medieval world with a very light sprinkling of fantasy elements, and when magic is used it's either vague to the point you just accept it(Gandalf in LOTR), or so rigidly defined that it might as well just be a power set like Superman has(flight, laser eyes, invulnerability frost breath, etc).

I agree completely, it always ends up with magic being magic, and history being history, they're like oil and water, it's ridiculous.

This is not the first time I've gotten into a debate about physics and history and how magic would affect them, I remember getting into a huge debate on bato.to about sexy armor vs practical armor, and how magic would make a thong practical let alone something like boob-plate or bikini-mail, needless to say, we ended up at a similar impasse.

 

[Misticsan]

Wow, i can't believe the dicussion became so long!

Honestly, I can understand where everyone comes from. Stolas was indeed haughty, overconfident, too ready to judge a book by its cover and didn't realize the signs of danger until it was too late. As her teacher basically foreshadowed, this was a necessary lesson in humility. Expect the unexpected, don't believe yourself invincible, etc. Her mindset alone was leading her to her doom before the battle started.

On the other hand, I have to agree with gaigous: guns change everything, especially guns in a medieval fantasy setting that the opponent couldn't have expected even if she was the second coming of Napoleon Bonaparte.

Ultimately, I have the impression that there's a double irony here. Stolas would probably have won had the opponent been as she expected, and thus she wouldn't have learned anything. But he wasn't, and the game changing factor was so OP that she would have lost regardless even if she was the most brilliant tactical mind in the universe. She was facing the Kobayashi Maru, and that's really unfair. But the point of the Kobayashi Maru is precisely that, so the lesson is still good (still, I feel very sorry for her).

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

.......

This, what you wrote.... Is the point.....
The whole point of narrow paths, is to give a smaller army a better fighting chans.... Since the biggest disadvantage for a smaller army is that they can get easily surrounded.

Ever trained martial arts? If you asked them how to deal with larger numbers, they will all just say run away. But if you're forced and have no options; then your best option is to find means where they can't surround you. This might cut of your acces to escape, and sure, you still might have to fight them all.
But if you odds where low anyway, you might just as well try to make things equal.
Fighting them 1on1 instead of 20on1.

But based on this. I truly don't believe you've watched 300. It's a movie that has taken some liberties, but it's still based on a real event. So let me spoil the major parts (of the movie at least).
> Xerxe's attack the greeks with 1million men strong army.
> The spartans find a narrow path between the montains along the road the persians need to take, where they could fight Xerxes army.
> Xerxes can't deploy all his men at the same time, and can only send a fraction of his army each time.
> Someone betrays the greeks, and show Xerxes a goatpath around the mountains.
> Xerxe's lead a part of his army around that path, surrounding the spartans.
> Yup, the spartans now know they are fucked and try to do one last stand...

This is what I meant narrow paths has many different kinds of disadvantages, that one type of magic can't overwrite it all.
You can't press down your whole army like in Agincourt, and you can't always send one unit at the time like with Thermopylae. Or the Teuteberg where the romans had to stretch their army, thus lacking any coherence.
I don't think you've truly understand the danger of narrow paths....

 

[gaigous]

@Southpaw

It's a ridiculously basic concept, so yes, I get it, I've always gotten it, the corridor is the one constant in this entire debate, but I'm gonna assume there was a split somewhere earlier in the conversation since you seem exasperated by me pointing out the advantages of a hallway, I mean, you don't even need to study history, it's just basic physics and a little abstract thinking, my memory may suck balls, but I'm not stupid lol


These are the parameters i've been tackling your corridor-related questions with:

1. A three-floor dungeon, the entrance is a protruding mound that can fit 1 to2 people at a time, each floor is a straight featureless hallway, each hallway is around 15 to 20 feet wide, and 30 to 40 feet high.

2. The dungeon defenders consist of golems covered sporadically with metal plates that cover their internals, and they are equipped with medieval weapons(swords, spears, shields, bows, etc).

3. The dungeon challenger has the ability to summon infinite copies of flying humanoids with similar medieval weapons to the golems(We never really figured out what their offensive capabilities were, so this is what I'm going with).


My one answer has been to send the optimal number of clones down there, if some die, I send down more, they are infinite, hence why I've been so confident that the corridor wouldn't matter throughout this entire conversation, I can just sit down a safe distance away from the entrance, twiddle my thumbs and play the waiting game, the enemies golems are finite, once they're gone, they're gone forever, my resource advantage is absolute in that scenario.

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

So lets get into this point then. Because although you have in essential used this point througout the conversation, with different direction; I decided to ignore it for now because, well, I didn't want every single respond become too long and thus focused one thing at the time.

Sure, if you've infinte resources, then yes, it very possible to keep sending your armies in a constant stream, wearing down the opposition...

You would have to be near-omniscient(quantum supercomputer) to predict every single method employed by your opponent ahead of time

But does this mean that MC's plan to create a narrow path (without guns) would be retarded?
Well, with this logic, every plan would be retarded... Even with guns.
Everything can be countered, every plan, every weapon, everything if you have enough resources, time, strenght and so on.
Everything can be redemed useless with the right setting, once again, even the guns.
What if the wind-barried did work, blocking the bullets? Then he would have nothing as well.

It isn't just the narrow path creation that risk being useless with this mindset. Everything will. Nothing is safe if you can throw in a "what if magic"..

What if her army would be bulletproof like Superman?
What if her army could absorb damage?
What if her army were transperant/ghosttype?

So either, every plan ever created in fantasystories are retarded by default, since you're right, one can't predict every outcome and what (doesn't) work when the means are endless (with magic). Including the girl's.
Or you could at least try using the most basic of common logic as a base setting when in a discussion... Well, until something else is shown otherwise about the setting and how the magic works...

I don't know your stance on the "bikini" topic, nor do I say I need to discuss it here. But using it as an example. I would still focus on the real (un/)practical use instead of the magic since, if a proper setting hasn't been established, it could be endless, both ways... (Thus rather pointless).
"The Gods are pleased seeing cleavage, you're thus granted the blessing and the protection of the gods called 'deus ex machina'..

 

[Shiki-kan]

@Southpaw

My bad about the flamethrowers, they're from a later fight.

So, going with just the golems, as the gas is of negligible effect once it's known about (pure mustard gas is invisible but even then all it takes is one clone to be exposed and it becomes obvious) and the mines can be avoided with flight (no lasers, tripwires would be both visible and liable to be destroyed by the golem salvos) - it's an excellent setup for dealing with horde attacks, but as stated she can copy her army nigh indefinitely. So I'm going to discount the actual composition of her army as well. If the golems can be countered she wins, if not she loses. It's all about if the golems can be dealt with.

Her element is wind, but we don't know how far that ability extends or how much control she has over it. She's immature in her powers, certainly, so we can't assume bullshit cheats like being able to use the air to bend light around things. If she could do that, that'd be an obvious thing to do. So, let's assume basic manipulations only.

Her projection form is seemingly invisible and intangible, as the golems did not open fire on it. Therefore, she can go in and observe what is waiting. If the gas is invisible let's assume she doesn't see it, but we already know that only works once. The mines may or may not be visible, but I'd assume they could be found if she looked carefully enough and so they can be avoided. Plus they're single use so they can be overwhelmed by numbers anyway. She gets to the golems. She does not recognise what they are armed with and lacks the understanding to figure it out just by examination. Therefore, as she watches, she sends in some expendable copy soldiers and sees how the unfamiliar enemies operate. They're conventionally overpowered, but they have to reload (although as you point out they can cover in shifts, though that does decrease the rate of fire and coverage of the corridor) and if they fire for long enough, they will overheat the barrel. Likely they have commands to stagger their bursts to prolong the viability of the weapon for as long as possible, but that also decreases their rate of fire. Backup weapons might be available along with the ammunition stores but swapping them out would take time. Golems cannot adapt to unexpected situations they have not been given commands for.

Modern bullets contain their own oxidiser so trying to decrease the oxygen available to the golems wouldn't work (she would not be able to figure out that there is chemistry involved in the weapon but we could assume she has a basic knowledge of combustion. Fire needs oxygen, the guns obviously involve fire in some way. It won't work but you couldn't fault her for trying it). On the other hand, if you lower the air density around the golems, the cooling of their guns will be affected. At the least lengthening the periods they have to wait to not overheat the barrels. Alternatively, you could ramp air down to their end of the tunnel to increase the air density. The guns will cool faster, but that heat will remain in the local atmosphere around them and gradually (pretty quickly actually) the ambient temperature surrounding them will reach an impeding level. If the golems have instructions to preserve the weapon, they'll just stop firing. If they don't, they'll wreck the gun. Either way, you can progress. In the former case, you may actually be able to steal the weapon and turn it against the golems in the next area. Not sure how effective it'd be, but you're not losing anything if it doesn't work.

This does rely on each tunnel section being self-contained, but I think that is the case, and on a basic level of wind manipulation. If she does have access to more advanced chemistry or stronger abilities, she could do any number of interesting things above and beyond that.

 

[gaigous]

You would have to be near-omniscient(quantum supercomputer) to predict every single method employed by your opponent ahead of time, and it might as well be a non-magical dungeon at that point since no one can use magic effectively when it's rendered useless, just a bunch of archers and swordsman, regular medieval warfare.

This was intended to address your list of magical countermeasures, my point was that the aggressor has the advantage of choosing their method of attack.


We are in complete agreement, I absolutely hate magic systems in stories that allow you to imagine an outcome and throw mana at it, your hacking reality at that point, who the hell wants to read, watch, or play something with that in it? Mary Sues are fun to watch, but your brain is a sack of meat along for the ride, just like watching most Micheal Bay movies...

That's why I gush over D&D, almost anything is possible, but there are strict steps to achieving everything, the wizard needs time, mana, incantations, and/or components to prepare most spells, not to mention the stats and knowledge associated with them, you have to work your way up to fireballs, and even then you can't shit them out endlessly, and once you start ascending to a higher being like a god, devil, or whatever your path to power is, there are intense restrictions and in most cases weaknesses placed on you, god I love that system.


@Shiki-kan gets it, magic is about using what you have intelligently, Kiritsugu from Fate/Zero is my favorite anime character that does this.

If it's an MMO like Wow, Guild Wars 2, or FF 14, then I would want the option to transmogrify my armor into a bikini or whatever else, but if it was a lore-based single player RPG like Dragon Age: Origins or The Witcher series, then I want everything to be as immersive as possible ...unless it gets in the way of my vampire brothel orgy or romp with the local succubus, certain things are worth the effort~

 

[Southpaw]

@Shiki-kan

A very interesting read I must say.
Though, I don't know if she could have used her clones endlessly, since she had to, despite clearly not wanting to, rely on her most trusted "children". So I think they would be replinshable for sure, but it must take time some certain circumstance to do so and thus isn't feasible when dungeon raiding.
And about her projection... I don't know.. What you say make sense, but then the whole scene/plan were they tried to send her to the second floor would be rather pointless...

Although, non of that matters because your most intersting plan doesn't involve any of that. If you don't count her testing the abilites of the guns by sending clones. But 100 clones should be enough for that anyway.

But this plan of yours involve four major things, her knowledge, the level of her powers, the layout dungeon, and the cooling system.

The knowledge I don't think she would posses, making it already fall kinda flat. But lets for the fun of it, assume she does. But even then it could fall flat.. I ain't gonna lie, I know all of this about heat and pressure and how they correlate, and that guns can be overheated, and even I didn't think of it. Knowledge is useless if you can't apply it...
But lets once again, assume she would be smarter than me.
Then yes, this then sounds like a rather interseting plan.

But in order to build up the pressure, the layout/structure needs to be, so no pressure can escape when pumping in air. And I do believe this must involve quit some huge magic power on her part to pull it off.. In order for her not only maintaining it, but also be able to increas it to the wanted level.

And lets not forget the cooling system, although since this is almost a moot point since we don't know if a cooling system is at place, nor how advanced it could be...

So with all this being said, then maybe she could have a chans.
A very interesting plan indeed.
If she would be able to pull it off depends on factors we can only speculate about for now. But no matter if she would win or not;
for me being a good tactician isn't about always winning or losing, or even about making mistakes sometimes.. but how creative you can be with the means you have.
Meaning that her (or you in this case), do deserve mad respect.

Although, in this case it also mostly depends on knowledge she most likely don't posses, even is she would be a sharp one.
But since my stance was also that there was no chans at all by the means available..
I submit to your glory and admit that there might have been a chans after all.