Maou-sama no Machizukuri! ~Saikyou no Dungeon wa Kindai Toshi~ - Vol. 1 Ch. 6 - Beyond Despair

[JigokuShounen]

Reading this chapter moments in the novel was one of the Best I got to read in the novel, and this manga adaption Despair was even Better than I could imagine. Truly a chapter I was looking forward to.

 

[tppcrpg]

The only "winning" move for her would be to turtle up though that would end up being a draw with both sides being unable to invade the other's dungeon.

 

[Inuzuka]

@gaigous

"She made damn good use of her strengths, didn't charge in like a bull as the MC thought she would- ....okay, you know what, I think I know where the difference of opinion is coming from, you guys view the deductive reasoning and actions taken as her underestimating him, and we view them as the natural conclusion given what little information she has available."

She can Astral Project, she knew his dungeon only had 3 floors and that the match would last 2 hours. She could have easily scouted out his entire dungeon before a single one of her monsters stepped foot in it.
Instead, she sent in a troop of clones without even having her Astral form accompany them in and then when they didn't report back, sent in another troop, only thinking of checking what happened to the first troop too late to save the second troop.
Then when her contracted monsters suggested that the first floor would be the only floor to implement this layout, she still didn't scout it out and lost her remaining attacking force for nothing.

 

[Qelix]

She's a sore loser. I know seeing her friends getting slaughtered in a warlike battlefield, where all human sentiments go down the grinder, was brutal on her personality. But they do get revived, right? She created the conflict by trying to make herself look better by openly looking down on and talking trash about the MC. So she is trying to protect her dungeon core in dragon form? That's fair. But lamenting about how injust everything is and how he is the villain. Nope. She had it coming.

And her strategy was wrong.
1: You don't let your main force charge blindly into enemy territory. She just guessed it would be fine. That's an awful gamble to take.
2: She even send a 2nd wave into the grinder.
3: Then she took the last remainders of her forces, to charge in a working (but still very bloody) fashion and got through. But yet again she guessed, that this would have been everything. Again a stupid bet she lost.

What's so wrong about:
1: Sending a scout or scouting team? Ohh, it got wreaked by those bullet thingies. What to do?
2a: Try to wipe out the threat (the MG-Nest). She's a Wind User: Suffocating it? Hmmm, nope. Those are golems. Explosion magic? Bombs? Counter attack with wind attack magic? Even if not available or not working, there is still step 2b.
2b: Trying to protect against the bullet thingies. Wind shield should do the tri....ohh. Okay. Other Magic barriers? How about something more material. A metal shield? She made all kind of equipment and a whole dungeon. You wanna tell me, she can't create a huge ass and thick metal plate?
3a: If something from above works rinse and repeat.
3b: If everything fails: The golems don't need air. What about the enemy dungeon master?
4: 3b didn't work? Let him come.
5: He isn't coming out? Well, let's call it a draw.

And everything what @Inuzuka just said.

 

[monkey123]

@All these Sun Tzu wannabes posting here. Let's just enjoy the manga instead.

 

[silverden]

@monkey123 they do (i think) its just they like to overthink things (me too to an extent, i just like to respond sometimes).

 

[Firefly]

I think I've said this before, but all this talk of using tactics... I'd like to point how it took several months, even years for WWI commanders to figure out "Hey, maybe we need to do something more than just rush the enemy trench".

Asking that what is essentially a child in a fantasy setting, with zero familiarity with modern weaponry to do better than those commanders dumb somewhat optimistic.

(As a side note, even a modest metal shield would have trouble stopping the caliber those golems were firing)

 

[Southpaw]

@monkey123

I'd read one of your previous comments, thought you missed the point, decided not to respond anyway. But when you've missed the point once again... Let me adress both.

She wasn't in panic mode when they stupidly assumed that MC hadn't done the next room similar or even worse.
And even if she was, you didn't change the point of the guy you reesponded to...
Panic or not, is just the reason, the point was that she still misjudged the situation and didn't think straight. So you didn't add anything really...

And enjoying the manga "instead"? Are you implying that discussing how flawed her tactics was to rush in without any reckoning and enjoying this manga is mutally exclusive? Stop acting like you've some sort of highground.

 

[Southpaw]

@Firefly
@gaigous
@Narf

Her being unable to craft a good plan against guns is one thing. But not even crafting up a plan until half your army is lost and too late, is another. You people are so caught up that there was nothing she could do against guns, that you fail to see that she still failed to do even the most basic of tactics.

Seriously, what is it with you people that defend her dumb actions just because he had guns... Like it's some kind of excuse.
GUNS OR NO GUNS, is irrelevant, when will you people understand that? Even if he didn't have the techology, rushing like she did without any intel is just stupid.

What you all are essentially seem to think is that him having guns is some sort of excuse for her blunder.
It doesn't matter if it was guns there or not: traps, javelins, spears, archers, phallanx, numbers and so on. Are still things that need to be considered on order to advise a plan. EVEN IF he didn't had modern technology, she was RECKLESS!

Heck, even then she sent her other troop like a complete novice, lost it, and was now forced to relly on her most trustworthy "children"....

Spies and scouts as been used in warfare even in the ancient times. FOR A FUCKING REASON!

 

[Vasqueztion]

@gaigous
Alright, let's just agree that guns are bullshit. But what of it wasn't guns?
Her tactics were right? A blitzkrieg into the unknown? She pushed her whole army into an attack besides 3, her mains.
He made a dungeon specifically designed to screw her avian team. Small, compact, forced into smaller groupings. It could have been spikes in the floors and walls and it would have destroyed her.
"But they can just walk over the bodies." Then they contend with poison, then more rooms of the exact same. Guns aside, she fucked up because she looked down upon him without giving any thought into what might happen.

 

[gaigous]

@Southpaw LOL I'm the one being dense, alright buddy, agree to disagree.

@Inuzuka I'm aware she used an astral projection to scout out his first floor, what kind of conclusion is she supposed to draw from a bunch of empty hallways and golems without knowing anything about guns?

@Inuzuka @Qelix

It's called politics, her response to being dropped into a high society made up of demon lords is to put herself on a pedestal and create a pecking order, the MC is her competition in a den of vipers, he's weirder for trying to make friends with those types and not "playing the game".

You're telling me that if a person was in a competition, their opponent had the equivalent of an endgame weapon right from the beginning, all their minions had a copy of said weapon, and the only way to win was walking through three hallways while being shot at like fish in a barrel, their anger at the unfairness of reality would be unjustified and/or unreasonable? Okay then.

Oh my god, why is it so hard for some readers to understand this, the first automatic weapons changed everything, and people knew what guns were when they fought against them!

She doesn't know anything about bullets other than them being projectiles made of metal that shredded her wind barrier and servants.

She created all that crap in HER dungeon, what the hell kind of dungeon duel would it be if the dungeon masters could just alter everything around them whenever they want?

They aren't gods, they have to shape their magic into a spell with purpose, hence a wind barrier that can't stop bullets, what the hell kind of magic system would give you complete control over an element regardless of knowledge or mana?

There is no periodic table of elements there, they have no concept of oxygen outside of air that people breathe. let alone dust explosions or other things like that.

Alright, I'm done, this is a waste of time, I'm gonna have my view, and you guys are gonna have yours.

 

[gaigous]

@Vasqueztion

The reason I keep shouting "guns are bullshit!" is that while they might not be considered cheats by themselves, they limit the number of countermeasures in a medieval fantasy setting so severely, that there is almost no way to contend against them without previous knowledge and preparation.

The reason her tactics were on point, is that she scouted him out, all she saw were hallways and golems, sent some fodder to bait a response anyway, discovered the guns, and correctly assumed that no matter what she did they would be butchered senselessly, her servants saw her despair, talked her into one last all or nothing gambit(blitzkrieg), the floating critter was slaughtered before he could even raise a barrier, which would have done nothing anyway, the rest were dealt with in short order, that's when the flight part of flight or fight kicked in, she fled back to her throne room, and had a nice little mental breakdown, the MC showed up shortly after and asked her to surrender, and she rightly(IMO) lost her shit.

Whatever alternative strategy she came up with would not include info on guns, there is no maneuvering around such a thing, it's point and shoot.

Everything she can summon is wind-based, meaning scouting(stealth) and mobility(guerilla warfare) are her strengths, his dungeon consisted of three hallways, you do the math.

For what it's worth, I'm sorry for pouring oil on this conversation, your argument made sense to me.

 

[Talh]

@monkey123:
I know that she panicked but that just means that the statement that she made a fatal mistake there is even more correct.
My statement was that she did not make the right decisions for that situation.
So what you said about her panicking just supports that statement.

@Narf:
Nope, betting it on something so unreasonable is wrong from the beginning.
She should have just made a tactical retreat into her own dungeon and reform her own troops to focus on defending.
She was not forced to go all out to attack.
Instead she could have gathered her forces after that failed attempt with the clones and fought against the MC within her own dungeon.
There her monsters and followers would have had the advantage in the territory.
They would have known where they can set up an ambush and where the invaders must pass through.

And what you said about her losing if she does not go all out to attack is as such plain wrong.
As long as her troops defended her own dungeon she would not lose.
Furthermore she would have had a chance to capture the MC and then invade his dungeon with him as hostage.
That way the golems could not attack because the MC would be in the line of fire within those narrow passages.
So she had the best chance for victory by defending first instead of attacking.

@gaigous:
Your argument is only valid up to the point where she saw what happened to the clones of her troops inside those narrow passages.
After seeing how the golems shot down the clones she should have understood that trying to charge in is nothing short of suicide and that in all likelihood the next floors would be the same or even worse for her troops.
So at that point she should have sounded the retreat into their own dungeon to then defend against the MC's party invading it.

In her own dungeon her troops could make the best use of their abilities and surround any invader from all sides.
Then even with those guns the MC's party could not have avoided being forced into close quarter combat because while they defended against the enemies rushing at them from one side. all the other enemies from left, right, behind and even above would have closed in on the MC's party.

That way she would have had a chance at victory due to numbers from all sides surrounding the MC.
Then capturing the MC would allow them to use him as a hostage against the golems in the small corridors by putting him in fromt of their troops as a "shield".
The golems then could not fire and would have been easily overcome.

So not choosing to retreat at that important point but instead going d*mb and starting an all-out suicide charge was the fatal mistake she made.
And that has nothing to do with expecting modern weaponry because she had already witnessed that weaponry and knew about the situation.

 

[Southpaw]

@gaious

Wow, you once again didn't adress my point.

You know, I can't belive that you truly believed that she did everything right.
Sure by doing eveything right might not have made her win over guns. But she didn't use her brain at all.

Let me take another example since you're so focused that he had gun, you fail to realize that she most likely wouldn't fair so much better against more primitive weapons:
Heck, chapter 5 and 6 did kinda adress this as well...

How did she create her dungeon? Wide space that was the most suited for her "angels". Smart! ONE thing done right.
MC creating a small space that (was the most suited for his guns but also) immobilzed her troops. Smart of the MC!
When she tried to storm the dungeon, the opening was too small for her force to be most effective. YET SHE STILL SENT HALF OF THEM INTO THAT SMALL SPACE!
This has nothing to do with him having guns.
Terrain scouting is one of the most important aspect when gathering intel. From warfare in memorial! The guns are a moot point, she should have scouted and waited to see the situation first! AND NOT SEND HALF HER TROOPS DOWN A NARROW HALL in order to "rush B"! There being guns there or not is irrelevant! YOU DON'T SEND YOUR TROOPS DOWN A NARROW PATH!
Agingcourt for me is prime example here. Google, and you will see NO GUNS WERE NEEDED for the English Bowmen to slaughter French KNIGHTS!

What I'm trying to say is... There is losing, and there is losing. Just because she never stood a chans, doesn't mean she couldn't have done better. You thinking she is a tactical genius is just to hilarious. Since she failed on every level! The guns was just th cherry on top.
Would I win in the same situation? Hell no! But I would NEVER send a huge chunk of my army without reckoning ALOT.

Yeah, and I saw your second comment to someone else... You can't be for real claim that sending half her troops was scouting, when she didn't even know what happened to them. Man you sure are a huge fucking retard.

 

[gaigous]

@Talh She knows her clones were killed by projectiles, that's it, that world has magic and arrows as ranged weapons, she was correct to assume a wind-barrier would protect them with the limited information available, a defensive battle would have been the smarter move had she known why it was futile to continue.

@Southpaw

I only address a point that someone seems willing to expand their view on, and you seemed very certain of yourself, so It would be wasting my time and yours.

They were expendable clones, she can create as many as needed, the best possible bait available to her, so the opposite of wasteful.

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

I have widen it and widen it.... And you've yet to adress anything...
"Agree to disagree", like wtf man.. You can't even say WHAT part and WHY you disagree. You haven't even been close to come up with an argument at all!

I even brought up a REAL battle here. She did the exact MISTAKE the french did against the english during the battle of Aginecourt. No guns were needed there at all!
So let me ask you this AGAIN! Would this rush tactic had been sustanible against "more primitive weapons" like pikes, arrows, javelins when she pressed a huge chunk of her army down that narrow path!?

And bait..? Really? Then why the chock when they got obliterated? Not to mention she learnt and gained NOTHING from the first encounter... Do you even know what bait means? Because so far you have only proven yourself to have no knowledge about anything at all, least this manga...

If you don't answer and avoid it once again, then I will not reply back and laugh over how someone can be such a huge retard. Because this is just pathetic. You don't have to admit defeat, but acting like you're right despite being unable to adress any of my points really irks me.

 

[GodGinrai]

It's "Astaroth", not "Astaros".

Also, the manga took things in a really weird direction.

Spoiler

In the novels, the emerald dragon was the first monster she ever synthesized. The only reason it wasn't one of her monsters of the covenant was because of the Berserk state making it impossible to control.

 

[Talh]

@gaigous:
The problem is that her plan only covered the FIRST golems shooting at the intruders and assumed that the second floor would not have any golems shooting.
You completely ignore that she knew from the beginning that there are 3 floors and not just 1.
And she made a plan sacrificing ALL her "soldiers" on the very FIRST floor assuming that there was no problem on the 2nd and third floors.

Also she already assumed that those demons / monsters creating the wind wall would be shot down before reaching those golems at the end of the first floor.
She explained everything in the chapter.
But she simply ignored that there were two more floors simply assuming that there would be nothing on those floors.

 

[gaigous]

@Southpaw

I have given several points and counterpoints of substance, perhaps the reason you say I'm not addressing your points is that you don't see my points as points? POINTS(lol).

...There are an endless number of ways for her to deal with three straight tunnels and some golems armed with medieval weaponry, I should not have to give concrete examples of how someone would do so, but you have to understand that the MC would not have designed his dungeon like that if there were no guns, that would be retarded.

It's called reacting to stimuli, you throw some clones(bait) in the dungeon to scout things out and see how the MC would react, have him show his cards, continuously refining your tactics based on new information to better fit the challenge.

Agreeing to disagree was my attempt at ending our debate...

@Talh

At that point in time, she was in panic mode from her servants dying bloodily and had to be pushed(for lack of a better term) into the next floor by them, by the time she made it there she was finally snapping out of it. Her first wave of soldiers were clones, they can be replenished, dungeon monsters cannot.

As her master said, this will be a good experience for her, a soldier needs to experience a battlefield so they don't freeze up, hopefully, she will be able to remain calm under fire in the future.

 

[Southpaw]

@gaigous

... Somehow you seemed smarter when you danced around the topic... And no, you haven't adressed my point so far. You might have adress other people, but not me.

I already mentioned A REAL battle between the English and the French... Were rushing a huge army down a narrow path is a lethal mistake without there being guns in the equation... And you STILL have the nerve to claim that designing a narrow path for her bigger army is"retarded" if there weren't guns involved... Without backing up why.....
Sorry kid, I rather listen to historians and academics that have studied war history then someone like you. You can't for be for real trying to argue against wide accepted FACTS like you're above it!
Are you really this retarded? Please tell me you can't be...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt#Terrain
I linked because you seem to be to retarded to check things for yourself....

And you don't normally scout or bait with half your army, stop being stupid. Reread the chapters man, she HERSELF hoped that half her army would be enough to destroy the dungeon. I said it before and I will say it again; you've no clue what you're talking about, least this manga...
So for the last time, she didn't use them as scouts/bait, THIS MANGA SHOWS US HER INTENTION! STOP MAKING THINGS UP!
Do you have trouble reading or wtf is this!? Even your first comment missed the mark about her character.
I don't even know if I should adress your other points because you're just making shit up and that never happened...
Are you deluded or what?
The previous chapters came out some time ago, so please tell me that you try to argue from memory... It would still be pretty damn stupid to do, but otherwise you're just a fucking retard that can't read...