Musume no Tomodachi - Vol. 7 Ch. 58 - The End of a Long Night

[voidox]

@spidersonbikes lol, this dude literally ignores how I've gone and broken down his dumb "argument" point by point, then he comes out and attacks us and calls me wrong without even reading what I wrote

this dude is the height of sore loser with no argument + self-insert trying to defend his precious manga xD
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@estrombico LOL, doesn't read my points, assumes what I'm saying and dismisses me based off nothing xD classy stuff mate, maybe just admit you lost instead of acting like a sore loser who thinks he won

neither when someone agrees with you

you agree with me? do... do you even know what you are writing? you do know you've been defending this story and (poorly) arguing that it's an exception and I've been replying to that, i.e. it's not an exception

I literally go and address you point by point, no you are not agreeing with me cept for one part where I actually do acknowledge you agreeing on that point. I explain why this story is NOT an exception and why there should be no exception when it comes to adults and underage kids

annnnd here you go AGAIN doing the exact same thing I said you would do: "I 100% expect that you will ignore most of what I'll write here, still not read my previous post and continue to not research the topic".

You both are a product of our current society and moral code

hahahaha, what? holy freaking assumption and generalisation xD I love how you think you've figured out both of us and who we are from just a couple of anonymous comments on a forum xD

dude, are you like an alien or something since you keep talking how we're "products of this society" while acting like you are some special snowflake who is "better than current society", with moral codes that bypass everyone?

Spoiler

You both are a product of our current society and moral code, without our current values maybe you will be defending having relations with minors just because they're young and what matters to you most is age and nothing more.

once again, you go on about moral code when I keep telling you this is about LAWS and I'm talking about the law. Jesus dude, how much are you going to attack us without even reading what I'm saying where I literally address this point -_-

and once again, you show a really fcked up mindset where that joke of "age is just a number" seems to be a real thing for you, yikes dude. I advise you to stop spouting nonsense of morals and acting like you are morally superior to everyone, and go research the laws around underage kids.

adults should not date underage kids, period. No exceptions, no nothing. If you think it's cool for a 40+ man to be "helping" a 15 year old girl, and that help involving going on dates with her, kissing her, hugging her, having her naked on top of her and so on... then holy fck

and even laws aside, there is not even a moral justification for this relationship. There is no moral reason for a 40+ to date an underage kid, again, I've even gone over this point since you keep going on about morals as you know you don't have any real argument to make and keep ignoring the law.

Don't let the general opinion shape yours and think for yourselves, don't use the thinking of others to shape your way of arguing/present a point, if you can't do that you're just repeating something that maybe resembles partially what you think.

there is no general opinion on this mate, there are LAWS on it. Get over yourself and try and see what we're arguing. You are the one repeating yourself, saying vague shit like this and acting like you're making a point. What even does "think for yourself" mean here? like what, this is yet another jumble of words you are using as if it's making a point.. hint, it's not and you've yet to give a single reason proving that this story is an "exception", none -_-

Again, I address every single point of yours and explain why you are wrong and spouting dumb stuff. Either read what I've written or gtfo mate

 

[estrombico]

@voidox sure, the only thing I've done on bad faith is reading what you wrote even if I said I won't

Just read (this time read the whole post, not only the things you want to) and maybe you will see I agree on that adults shouldn't have relationships with minors. But should not is not cannot, every single matter has an exception and this case for me can be one.

Uh? I've not figured both of you, I'm only saying that for both of you age is the only thing that matters and that's a poor thing take only in account imho.

Where have I said I'm not one as well? everyone is product of it, but at least I have thought on what makes our current society it while contrasting with the one from my grandparents/early modern age/etc.
If one thinks is a snowflake that would be you, so high with your morals that cannot withstand an exception.


Oi, you're being awfully rude there for someone that's certain it has "won" the point xD.
And again, you accuse me of repeating myself and the only reason you both have given are "muh age" "muh laws". Laws are the product of our society and change over time, laws are not eternal neither a moral code.


What's your point? what have you thought for yourself? I've stated this is not a case where an adult gains a relationship with a minor under grooming/sex offender tactics and you've only said its a toxic relationship bad for the minor. Well that's your point, we can argue if the relation is toxic or not but you don't have a say if they can have it or not.

You accused myself of using personal evidence as something factual, something I even said on that sentence it can prove the statics nor that they prove it and then you hurdle at me "what would you do if your x ends in a relation like that?" well, you should already know, I'd be against it and do what an adult would do.
Talk with him/her and try to see if he/she is serious about it and after that if I see it for myself I'd talk with the adult ._.
I don't think I'd approve of it but mate, maybe we should talk with the people involved and see their motives/try to resolve the situation for ourselves before pointing fingers at the dog killer.

And yeah I say I won't read those books that are so in fashion nowadays that only approach the topic with a biased point of view and pointing out only the things that make their point valid.
Even so, is your point better just because you've read a book about relations with minors or something like that? I guess I'm a physics experts because I read a lot of theoretical physics xD.


Don't try to overwhelm or throw out your opponent in a debate with long replies, you're not smarter for doing that, neither right.

So, read your own shit, read mine and gtfo mate :3

 

[voidox]

@estrombico

lol dude, just how much more are you going to reply saying the same stuff I've already addressed?

you are someone who has admitted to not reading my posts, has admitted to not researching the topic, has posts FULL of logical fallacies, continues to repeat the same points over and over that I've addressed already... just wow man, honestly just stop and move on

here I go addressing you again point by point, mostly repeating myself yet again... sigh, this is just trolling now isn't it? where you will reply yet again without reading or addressing my points and with no real argument to make :/

EDIT -

I agree on that adults shouldn't have relationships with minors. But should not is not cannot, every single matter has an exception and this case for me can be one.

I understand this, and I've addressed this point but since you aren't reading my posts you don't know that. Good that you agree adults x minors is wrong, but I disagree that this story/manga is an exception <--- I've been replying to you saying this is an exception.

Maybe if I don't put this in a spoiler, you'll read it... who knows~

Let's look at it from 3 different viewpoints separately:

1) Legally: MC is completely in the wrong and illegal relationship, throw him in jail
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2) Morally: there is no moral justification for this relationship. And that's what this is, you trying to find a moral justification for the MC. Here's the definition of moral justification:

Moral justification is, simply put, a process whereby a person who is evaluating a morally questionable act attempts to make it seem right.

ya, we all know this story is wrong but you want to make it seem right by ignoring the law, and trying to make it about a moral stance. So sure, let's look at this just for a moral standpoint:

Adults getting involved with minors just brings up huge amount of issues from power difference, different experiences in life, romantic experience, consent, pressure and so on. The very nature of an adult x minor is morally questionable at best, and completely wrong and disgusting at just normal. At worse we see real abuse, assault, rape and so on.

I could go on here, but you keep saying this story is an exception from a moral standpoint, so I'll address this in that context now.

the MC is USING this underage girl as an escape for his own problems (which falls under power difference and abuse). He is using her as a distraction from the fact that he was a terrible father to his daughter, long before the mother died. He abandoned his kid to chase after this messed up relationship. And he is doing all this, despite knowing what he's doing is wrong and trying hard to make excuses for it.

This is NOT a healthy relationship with any moral reasoning that supports it. What the MC is doing is morally wrong and he knows it.
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3) Objectively (putting aside even the moral view): the MC has NOT helped Koto in any way and this relationship will NOT help her.

Koto has real trauma from her abuse at home as well as her father leaving her. She is desperate to escape her abuser (a woman) and is seeking a parent (her father) for help. Since she cannot go to her real father, she's instead gone to look for someone similar: middle age man <--- father figure

She is using sex to get the father figure and the comfort/attention/care she lacked from her own father. Notice how she's always wanting to get close and touch/have the MC touch or hold her <--- she's seeking the touch/care of her father that children get growing up, something she never got

So ya, actually getting involved in a relationship with said adult male is the WRONG approach to dealing with her issues. She needs REAL professional help and to be taken from her abusive mother. Her problems need to be addressed and dealt with from the root, this whole relationship is just running away from dealing with them

Moreover, the MC has failed to see any of this, has failed to even ask about this and has failed to help her in any real way. Like, this dude just saved her from almost getting raped, and all he could think about was "oh wanna date me" -_-

And finally, there is no guarantee that even if the two got together, that they would be happy. It's actually the opposite: the MC has shown himself to being a terrible parent and adult, so how could he ever be there for Koto? As for Koto, this is not the solution or a happy ending for her.
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Spoiler

at least I have thought on what makes our current society it while contrasting with the one from my grandparents/early modern age/etc.

this literally has NOTHING to do with the topic on hand, nothing at all. You keep bringing up irrelevant shit to try and make some point

I already called you out on this in my last post: red herring fallacy

withstand an exception.

I have directly addressed how this story is NOT an exception, even if I were to ignore age, laws, morals and w.e. I literally replied to this exception point multiple times now. You have nothing to retort with other than "oh it's an exception"

the only reason you both have given are "muh age" "muh laws"

holy straw man batman

nope, go read my posts cause I gave more than those and just fyi, age and laws are real and strong points to bring up. Your fantasy world where age/laws don't matter is one fcked up place. Also, you have no reason but "muh morals that differ from the worlds cause I'm special"

Laws are the product of our society and change over time, laws are not eternal neither a moral code.

again, what the fck does this have to do with the topic? this story is set in the PRESENT DAY, i.e. we use present day laws and moral codes to judge the story, wtf else do you think we can do? think up imaginary future laws or something? wat? -_-

and laws not being moral codes is not a point I ever brought up, so don't put words into my mouth

what have you thought for yourself?

you keep saying this as if it means anything. You think using present day laws/moral codes/experience/cases/articles/facts/so on to support an argument is... "not thinking for yourself"? wat?

you do realise that strong and correct argument use FACTS, not ur dumb take of using opinion

you don't have a say if they can have it or not

sure, the laws/morals of the present day do and they can't have this messed up pedo relationship

no judge would allow this relationship as MC is breaking multiple laws in his actions. And if we ignore laws and go with your fixation on morals, no moral code can justify this relationship. And if we ignore morals, no reason at all justifies this relationship or proves it can even be a "happy ending" for them to get together.

I've gone over this already, but point here is: you have nothing to back up your argument

something I even said on that sentence it can prove the statics

so prove it instead of saying you can

I won't read those books that are so in fashion nowadays that only approach the topic with a biased point of view and pointing out only the things that make their point valid.
Even so, is your point better just because you've read a book about relations with minors or something like that? I

what books? what? where are you getting this stuff from? holy assumptions mate, something you keep doing and I also called you out on before

don't make up shit and assume stuff... there are real world laws/cases/articles/facts/data/so on that back up my argument, not some "book". DO YOUR RESEARCH

Don't try to overwhelm or throw out your opponent in a debate with long replies, you're not smarter for doing that, neither right.

LOL, omg the amount of stuff I called that you would do and here you are doing it:

And yes, I'm going to write some paragraphs on the topic, so hopefully words don't scare you as we need words for proper arguments and to explain out points: <---- I literally wrote this in my first post and here you are xD

I wrote long replies cause I go through ur post POINT BY POINT and reply to each point with detail on my argument, so that if you bothered to read you would understand my position. You have not only failed to do the same, you haven't even read what I've written yet continue to reply

Oi, you're being awfully rude there for someone that's certain it has "won" the point

ya I dunno, I think I get to be a bit rude with someone who has admitted to not reading my posts yet continues to reply, someone who refuses to do his research on the topic and brings up points FILLED with logical fallacies: https://mangadex.org/thread/363961/8/#post_3942672 [the second spoiler for those]

fallacies including:

[ul]ad hominem
bad faith arguments
red herring (irrelevant points)
strawmanning
hasty/sweeping generalizations
moral equivalence
circular argument[/ul]

So, read your own shit, read mine and gtfo mate :3

I mean, I know what I've written, you clearly don't as you literally admitted to not reading my posts. So you gtfo mate :3

 

[Trew865]

Demon route unlocked

 

[estrombico]

@voidox but I've said I did in the end and was the only thing in "bad faith" I've done :3

1) legal things, as I said laws change over time, so I don't think is a good point to argue about, more so when the law is the law and I don't want to argue about it. Only saying that argumenting that something is bad because a law punish said action is not the way to go.

2) morality changes even faster than laws, what's moral today maybe is not tomorrow. And morality changes between societies and individuals.
Is not moral to have a relationship with a minor but the MC is not having one and even if he did he's not having it because she's a minor. He's not going for the minor exclusively, that's something you forgot to adress every single time

I didn't say this story is wrong. I don't endorse this kind of relationship more so when is a bit toxic for both of them, but of they resolve their issues and are okay with it, who am I to judge? I'm not her mother who doesn't like her child to be "tainted" neither his daughter who doesn't want that (for logical reasons of her own).

My issue with you, if we leave aside the rudeness I've seen on the later posts, is that this topic for you is either black or white. Human relationships are more complex than that and you cannot put every single one in the same bag. Hence why i said you both are zealots, can't see/imagine a situation without the bad things happening.
I dislike with passion when someone talks about power differences and so on, get real that exists and will always exists on every single interaction between humans and honestly can't see that being an issue just because one part is a minor. You know why? because as I said happens all the time between adults, is something normal because surprise surprise.. we can't be exactly the same.
I don't see the mc using his past experiences/power/whatever to coerce the fmc to his bidding, in fact I see him very clumsy and her more in power of the relationship.

As I said above, the fmc is using him as well, and she doesn't see him as his father figure. If you remember she clearly said he was like a puppy. At that point I was expecting this story to revolve around the fmc using the mc as a stress relief.
Uh, you're assuming he was a bad father and we didn't see that. See? you're being prejudiced against the mc just because you don't like what he's doing.
He didn't abandon his daughter and I've said this a ton of times already, so yeah.


3) I don't see it that way, it has helped her see that her life was not normal with her mother. If that's not helpful for you I don't know what it would be.
Nah, this doesn't go into the "seeking a father figure" she doesn't want that, she wants someone in who confide, kive and so on. From what we've seen the mc reminds her of her father only once and she doesn't go her way to treat him like that. He's a love interest for her not a parent figure.
Didn't get in the story her father was not caring. Her father was fed up with her controlling mother and left them, when his own child said to him she didn't dislike her mom he thought he was in the wrong and left for good.
Again you're making things up just to shape your version of the story, and her father left them when she was a teenager not a child.

Is wrong, sure but you can't say it can't help her if in the long run she ends being happy and freed of her toxic relationship with her mother, maybe even fixing it when another adult confronts her.
Don't accuse me of using personal experiences okay? because I'm only writting this so you can think more about it.
An abusive parent is the worst thing you can experience, but taking that child from his home is the last thing you want to do. The child will be traumatized for another whole new reason and even if their parents were a pile of shit, they will want to be with them, because they're his parents :/
Had a case of that in my family and they resolved it, the mom needed help. She's still a shit mom imo but at least she acts like one. In my country when a situation like this happen, the children go to a specialized centre because they can't trust the family to have the custody of said child, the grandmother wanted to do that but after learning the child will be months or maybe his whole childhood in a centre she went to try to solve things on her own.

Oh the mc has said multiple times he will help her, but he can't really help when he doesn't even know what's happening because she doesn't want to talk about it. He knows something has gone very badly but he's dumb and doesn't read this manga with us so.. he can't know.
Uh he wants to date her only in the later chapters at first he was not like that. Its not really fair to say that like "the mc only wants to date a minor because she's a minor and is for the taking" no xD, he wants to date her because now he knows her and likes her, something very human.

Yeah, there's no quarantee like.. in every relationship xD.
I don't see the mc as being a terrible parent an adult. He's hurt and be can argue if we would do things better but we're not him and are not in his shoes.. we will never know, even if we're adamant about "I will never date a minor!" that's our current position, tomorrow.. it will say.
I can only see a happy end in many years when both are adults and dealt with their own issues.

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If you can't see it has sense in our current topic so be it ._. morals are like that even if you dont like them.

Every single relatinship is different, you can't put this on the same bag as every abusive minor-adult relationships you can imagine

Yeah yeah, I'm a very special individual :3
I'm not here to argue about law I'm here to argue about a grey area of morals and why its not inherently bad, so here, burn this nice straw man you've gotten for me :3

If you can't see, okay I will tell you.
Why are you using as an argument something that changes over time? people probably had this same argument about slavery 300 years ago (OH NO HE HAS GONE OFF TOPIC AGAIN! BURN HIM!)
Just some examples, burn only that nice straw thing.

Well, present to me the facts regarding why a relationship between an adult and a minor is inherently bad.
Oh wait, can you really say that something is fact when it involves two different individuals all the time? sorry that's not how things go, humans are not a law of nature that can be explained with a nice equation or by applying a force.

If both of them want they will have it ._.
Or do you think people didn't have same sex relationships in the past (after the fall of Rome) just because the law and moral was against it?
You wield your law and morals like is an almighty sword capable of smiting everything.
I back my argument in that both of them want it and nor I neither you has a saying on that. And even if a judge goes against him they can't do anything to him if Koto doesn't lie, because he has not done anything against her, neither is in a not moral relationship with her.
This is not another world or whatever, this is reality and if you think this type of relationships don't exist, we live in different worlds

Will say the same thing you said to me, research it for yourself :3333 its not like you cannot google "divorces past ten years"

Making the same assumptions as you, hurling at you your own

Words don't scare me, what scares me is the amount of time to read and answer it. Why? because sometimes I've the feeling I'm having a good time discussing something with someone but with you most of the time is just "someone who thinks he has the universal truth is trying to sell me the holy grial".
Not a pleasant experience and don't try to say "BUT YOU DO THE SAME" because I've stated several times I don't want to convince you, neither """""""win""""""" the argument. This is not something childish about winning or losing is stating our different points of view If I wanted to read cases I'd do so, you don't need to try to support your point of view with them I dislike that.

I understand your point of view but I can't understand your position on the matter because I've read your whole posts (I refuse to answer them point by point this time is an exception)


Well mate maybe I said that because you were very rude at that point and didn't want to waste time answering comments from a person that rude :3
For someone who has named me as dishonest, acting on bad faith, making things up, whatever I think I'm being very polite with you, something maybe you don't deserve.

Sweet and fancy words :3 do you consider yourself a good arguer? you really know your stuff :3
Think more about things instead of reading about winning argumentations.

I've already said several times but you're just blind so we will leave it at that :3


Btw, as much as you want to make your own arguments putting some fancy names someone has thought for you, it doesn't makes your own arguments better

 

[voidox]

@estrombico

sigh, here we go again:

you have ignored most everything in my post and cherry picked out few sentences to reply to. And even then, you picked out a sentence or two and not the whole point. I knew you'd do this and I literally called it that you would

Maybe if I don't put this in a spoiler, you'll read it... who knows~

and look at that, you did EXACTLY that yet again. jfc dude -_-

Spoiler

legal things, as I said laws change over time, so I don't think is a good point to argue about, more so when the law is the law and I don't want to argue about it. Only saying that argumenting that something is bad because a law punish said action is not the way to go.

legal things changing over time has NOTHING to do with the fact that there a laws PRESENT and are in effect. You don't get to pick and choose a law cause you feel like it or that "laws can change" -_-

how the fck is it bad to use the law in a case where there a literal law that exists for it? what?

morality changes even faster than laws, what's moral today maybe is not tomorrow. And morality changes between societies and individuals.

AHHHH, STOP IT... JFC, we are talking about right now, present day, current time... something that may or may not happen (laws/morals may also NOT change in the future you do know that right) has nothing to do with the argument. Stop saying this cause it means nothing, what may or may not happen in some future time has nothing to do with the current situation on hand

Is not moral to have a relationship with a minor but the MC is not having one and even if he did he's not having it because she's a minor. He's not going for the minor exclusively, that's something you forgot to adress every single time

he has kissed her multiple times, had her NAKED on him in a love hotel, has been extremely close and touched her, has gone on dates with her... wtf do you mean? and it doesn't matter if "he's not going for a minor" she is STILL A MINOR. That's like saying a pedo doing these things to a kid is totally fine cause he "wasn't going for the minor", like what even are you saying here???

but of they resolve their issues and are okay with it, who am I to judge?

read that part of my previous reply where I directly address this and show how this relationship is both toxic and not a way to resolve their issues. I will not repeat myself every fcking time for you

is that this topic for you is either black or white. Human relationships are more complex than that and you cannot put every single one in the same bag. Hence why i said you both are zealots, can't see/imagine a situation without the bad things happening.

I have gone over and over and over how this situation is NOT an exception. My literal last post addressed this relationship in THREE separate ways, with NONE of them justifying it. And yes, it IS a black and white situation cause he's a 40+ man while she's a 15 year old KID.

and we are zealots for bringing up real issues and problems that exist with adults dating minors? that laws exist to protect children from the potential dangers? Oh excuse me for wanting kids to be safe from preying adults

and no, there is no good thing that can come from an adult dating an underage kid, none at all. The fact that you think there is shows that you really have some messed up view on this topic. I advise you to seek out information on this topic and educate yourself on why it is bad.

ADULTS SHOULD NOT DATE CHILDREN, END OF STORY

I dislike with passion when someone talks about power differences

cause it seems like you have no idea what power difference means, seeing as how you think it's only about force. This is why I've repeatedly said to REASEARCH the topic

also, that was not my only point, but nice of you to cherry pick one thing to attack me with

she doesn't see him as his father figure

apart from the fact the if you look at her state of mind and what she's doing, she is. Again, I've literally spelt out how she is in my previous post so go read it.

Uh, you're assuming he was a bad father and we didn't see that. See? you're being prejudiced against the mc just because you don't like what he's doing.

He didn't abandon his daughter and I've said this a ton of times already, so yeah

you... are you reading the same manga? do you not see how estranged his daughter is with him? did you not read the chapters showing us how he abandoned his daughter after the mother died? how he was too busy at work to care for his kid? how he left her on the side of the road, at night, chasing after his creepy relationship?

did you not see how he didn't even try and help his daughter with her grief? or get someone to take care of her when he couldn't? I could go on, but how in fck do you think he was a good father?

I don't see it that way, it has helped her see that her life was not normal with her mother. If that's not helpful for you I don't know what it would be.

which he could have done WITHOUT dating her, and he barely got her to stand up for herself and she already knew her life was not normal. Koto was literally desperate in wanting to escape her home life, it's why she went after the MC.

Nah, this doesn't go into the "seeking a father figure" she doesn't want that, she wants someone in who confide, kive and so on. From what we've seen the mc reminds her of her father only once and she doesn't go her way to treat him like that. He's a love interest for her not a parent figure.

https://openlab.citytech.cuny.edu/the-composition-of-happiness-f2014/2014/11/25/father-figure-wanted-the-effect-of-absence-of-a-father-in-a-womans-love-relationships/

https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-29/june/absent-fathers-and-sexual-strategies

https://perspectivesoftroy.com/father-complex/

DO YOUR RESEARCH

her father left them when she was a teenager not a child

ah yes, cause leaving your child when they are a teen is toooootally cool and not harming

Is wrong, sure but you can't say it can't help her if in the long run she ends being happy and freed of her toxic relationship with her mother, maybe even fixing it when another adult confronts her.

again, I address this exact point in my previous post and show how this is NOT a solution to her problems and is in fact also a unhealthy relationship built on running away from problems, not addressing them. And dating an older man is NOT the way to deal with her parental, home and mental issues... professional help and therapy is. Someone who has experience with these types of cases and can really help her

An abusive parent is the worst thing you can experience, but taking that child from his home is the last thing you want to do. The child will be traumatized for another whole new reason and even if their parents were a pile of shit, they will want to be with them, because they're his parents

um, this is quite literally the most irrelevant thing you've brought up... but sure, taking away a kid from their parents can be bad but if the parent is literally abusing the child, then no, it's not bad. Look, this is going into a while other thing so I don't want to get into it. I'll leave it at: professionals exist who have jobs with child care, they know best and Koto should be referred to child support for her situation (if MC was a decent adult he would have done so)

Oh the mc has said multiple times he will help her, but he can't really help when he doesn't even know what's happening because she doesn't want to talk about it. He knows something has gone very badly but he's dumb and doesn't read this manga with us so.. he can't know.

and yet, he's just fine kissing her, going on dates, being way too close to her, professing his creepy love and so on. Sure buddy, the adult is unable to find out what's wrong cause he's literally too horny to do so. Hell, he couldn't even get her help when he knows something is wrong, even if he doesn't know the specifics. Even as simple as taking Koto to talk with someone he couldn't do

and what do you expect really, the MC can't take care of his own daughter so how could he ever take care of Koto

If you remember she clearly said he was like a puppy

LOL, so that is your proof she doesn't see him as a father figure? a figure of speech she used once? XD

the fmc is using him as well

https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/08/adults-with-minors-not-okay/

^ this article's point one, if you bother reading it which I doubt, perfectly explains why even Koto "initiating things" doesn't excuse the MC. I'll quote it for you so maybe at least you might read this part:

Even in the rarer cases where the teenager truly does initiate things, that doesn’t mean the adult should pursue it – because it still isn’t quite the same as two (or more) adults consenting to sex. And that’s because adolescent brains are different from adult brains – which is why we have age-of-consent laws in the first place.

DO YOUR RESEARCH

I don't see the mc as being a terrible parent an adult.

1) abandoning own child
2) not caring for own child even after mother dies
3) not even getting help to care for his kid, just left her in her room
4) focused only on his work, even before mother's death
5) left his own child on the side of the road, crying in middle of night
6) ignores that Koto has problems as he doesn't even try to get her help, or even ask advice from someone
7) too busy trying to date the girl than help her
8) using the MINOR as a distraction from his real problems and responsibilities <-- point of the story btw
9) a 40+ man who has now kissed a minor, hugged/been close to her, been in a bed with her, seen her naked, dated her <--- completely gross, illegal, morally fcked

an him having his own stress/issues does not excuse his actions in any way, he is the ADULT here. And even then, he could have gone and sought help FOR HIMSELF to manage his stress or asked someone to help him.

morals are like that even if you dont like them.

what is wrong with you? are you trolling me or something? how many times do I have to say this is not just about morals? how many times do I have to address your moral point? also, you are doing what's called moral justification, something I literally spelt out for you in my last post

it's not about me not liking the morality of the situation cause EVEN FOM A MORAL VIEWPOINT, the MC is wrong and this relationship is bad.

Every single relatinship is different, you can't put this on the same bag as every abusive minor-adult relationships you can imagine

...please please please READ MY POSTS, I literally also address this story without even bringing up other minor-adult relationships. I'm doing that in this post as well, how are you not getting this? Yes I've said ALL minor-adult relationships are bad, and stand by that but I also then looked at the story on it's own and showed how it's STILL BAD and not an exception

I'm not here to argue about law I'm here to argue about a grey area of morals and why its not inherently bad, so here, burn this nice straw man you've gotten for me :3

you don't get to pick and choose what to argue mate, this story is about a 40+ man dating an underage kid and that is what this entire fcking argument has been about. Just cause something doesn't support your argument, doesn't mean you can ignore it.

you are literally ignoring something that disprove your entire position, and then acting like you still have an argument... wat???

Why are you using as an argument something that changes over time? people probably had this same argument about slavery 300 years ago (OH NO HE HAS GONE OFF TOPIC AGAIN! BURN HIM!)
Just some examples, burn only that nice straw thing.

look up what straw man means, cause you clearly don't know what it is. I never said those words, and your analogy doesn't work here cause it is entirely irrelevant. Yes, going off topic is bad as there is a literal logical fallacy for doing so in an argument. Again, I've already told you this

and I've addressed this, but your defense against real world laws... is that laws may or may not change over time? so we can't use laws? what? -_-

Well, present to me the facts regarding why a relationship between an adult and a minor is inherently bad.

https://www.karplawfirm.com/whats-the-danger-of-an-adult-dating-a-minor/

https://www.stopitnow.org/advice-column-entry/what-do-i-do-if-my-teen-tries-to-date-an-adult

https://www.twincities.com/2012/06/16/young-adults-can-face-legal-consequences-when-they-date-a-minor/

even young adults dating minors has issues, from law to morals and so on. And fyi, date of consent laws apply to all forms of sexual date, ranging from kissing and fondling to sexual intercourse. Ya, includes kissing which the MC has done multiple times

Or do you think people didn't have same sex relationships in the past (after the fall of Rome) just because the law and moral was against it?

same sex relationship between a 40+ adult and an underage kid fall under the same consent laws, no difference. And same sex relationships being outlawed in the past have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS, wtf is wrong with you and constantly bringing up irrelevant shit that happened thousands of years ago?

You wield your law and morals like is an almighty sword capable of smiting everything.

LOOOOOOL, what? do you know what a law is?

I back my argument in that both of them want it and nor I neither you has a saying on that.

uhuh, ignore all the mental issues/abuse at home/parent leaving/stress/underage development of mind and experience/and so on and just blindly say "they both want it". And no, "they both want it" doesn't hold up in court cause the MC "wanting it" is beyond fcked up and wrong.

And even if a judge goes against him they can't do anything to him if Koto doesn't lie, because he has not done anything against her, neither is in a not moral relationship with her

multiple reports of them kissing, the pictures MC has of Koto, testimonies from the mother, daughter and co-worker, records of them going to love hotel that police can find, records of them going on dates or being seen on dates, MC's company having done an investigation on the matter annnnnd so on. Oh, and the mother point is huge in court cause she's the legal guardian of Koto and directly told the MC no. Oh ya, and those letters

any lawyer can easily get the MC charged with this

This is not another world or whatever, this is reality and if you think this type of relationships don't exist, we live in different worlds

I'm the one in another reality? I'm the one who is denying age of consent laws and saying stupid shit like "laws don't matter cause they might change"? I'm the one saying "morals are all wrong cause they might change"?

and these types of relationships do exist and ARE WRONG hence the world having LAWS against these types of relationships. I love how you ignore how almost all these minor-adult relationships result in serious cases of abuse, rape, exploitation and so on.

its not like you cannot google "divorces past ten years"

I have provided you with articles and sources for my points, you have provided nothing but "go google". So again, prove your point

Words don't scare me, what scares me is the amount of time to read and answer it. Why? because sometimes I've the feeling I'm having a good time discussing something with someone but with you most of the time is just "someone who thinks he has the universal truth is trying to sell me the holy grial".

uhuh, so me explaining my points thoroughly is bad. I get it, like I said in my first post, words are hard for you xD

Not a pleasant experience and don't try to say "BUT YOU DO THE SAME" because I've stated several times I don't want to convince you, neither """""""win""""""" the argument. This is not something childish about winning or losing is stating our different points of view If I wanted to read cases I'd do so, you don't need to try to support your point of view with them I dislike that.

LOL, then why keep replying to me? why keep parroting the same points I've proved wrong? I'll happily destroy your joke of an argument as many times as I want

I understand your point of view but I can't understand your position on the matter because I've read your whole posts (I refuse to answer them point by point this time is an exception)

you clearly haven't cause you keep repeating the SAME points I've already addressed... multiple times now -_- stop lying cause your replies tell me you haven't read my posts

and if you don't want to go through my argument point by point, at least go through some of it. You haven't gone through any significant part of my argument and just cherry pick one or two sentences to reply to. Meanwhile, I've gone through your ENTIRE posts to show how wrong you are.

I think I'm being very polite with you, something maybe you don't deserve.

I don't think you are being polite with me at all. You literally admitted to me that you aren't reading my posts, despite me putting in time to address each of your points one by one and explaining myself thoroughly. You then repeat the same points over and over as if you are trolling

so no, arguing in bad faith is being not polite, it's being a dick

Sweet and fancy words :3 do you consider yourself a good arguer? you really know your stuff :3

Btw, as much as you want to make your own arguments putting some fancy names someone has thought for you, it doesn't makes your own arguments better

HAHAHAHAAHA, do legal terms, real definitions, real phrases or words scare you or something? I'm using "fancy words" cause those are words in the dictionary to explain things, such as your abhorent use of logical fallacies throughout your posts

maybe educate yourself and look up the definition of the "fancy words" instead of crying about them.

look buddy, you don't have an actual argument other than "oh but laws/morals might change in the future" and "in my opinion", so enough of this already. Read my posts where I have addressed every single point you've made and proven your position wrong, educate yourself on the topic and then just leave.

I really am sick and tired of repeating myself over and over addressing the same tired points you have, jfc why have I even bothered with you -_- this is just going in circles so please:

just agree to disagree please and leave me alone, don't @ me again , I can no longer repeat myself on the same fcking points, please stop.

here's a closing for you and you can take it as you will, I don't care:

you have failed to present even a single reason as to why this story is an exception to something even you agree with: adults-minor is wrong. You have failed to show how this is not an unhealthy relationship or a solution to their issues. Just saying "it is so" or "in my opinion" and ignoring stuff you don't like, is not proof or reasoning.

Meanwhile, I have shown you proof on how it's not good, healthy, legal, morally justified or a solution from every criteria. I have explained my points with reasons as well as linked you to articles as proof.

Adults should never date minors as it is wrong morally, ethically, objectively and legally. There is no reason or situation ever where it is correct or justified. The MC is a creep as well as being a terrible adult and a failure of a parent.

If you can't accept that, then like I said, agree to disagree or w.e and move on. Have a nice life dude~

 

[Darkhaliz]

damn you guys are going ham in this comment section

 

[estrombico]

@Darkhaliz yes isn't it fun?


@voidox I have read them and? your whole point is your own opinion on the subject, same as my points. You're only trying to validate your opinion as a fact presenting what's seen as normal nowadays and ignoring that every human relation is different.

I'm not going to waste more time answering your post point by point as I did yesterday, as I said that was an exception, not because "HURR DURR YOU CANNOT PRESENT YOUR POINT CONTRASTING MY WHOLE POINT" no dude, I'm just addressing your point, not making a bloody thesis on your own opinion.

BECAUSE I DON'T WANT A BOOK TELLING ME WHAT TO DO I JUST WANT YOUR OPINION ON WHAT'S SO WRONG ABOUT THIS, NOT THE LEGAL IMPLICATIONS, I know what's wrong about it, I know current legal implications, I know about what you've presented, I don't want a parrot saying that something is bad BECAUSE IS BAD, dude what? I've said that what you present (and what you directly make up) doesn't correlate with this story
Better? or do I need to present my whole point in japanese? maybe you will understand better that way.

It means something because YOU'RE USING CURRENT LAWS AND MORALS TO SUPPORT YOUR POINT

Seriously, you're so focused on "winning over" "owning" your "opponent" you're making the things you're accusing me of xD
No point on answering the rest of it, you're just incapable of understanding of what we're discussing and don't want to argue, you just want to bulldozer your point.




I've presented them, you just don't want to see them that way, that's a valid point but you're just unable to understand that every single person can view a situation differently.
And dude, you don't even read my replies wtf? xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD seriously what a rude and unfaithful person you are, I'm regretting ever talking with you, what a waste of time and fingers

Have a nice whatever you're having dude, humans are notorious for thinking and you seem to be a parrot

 

[voidox]

@estrombico if you had read my posts, I literally ASK you questions to reply back to that you never did <--- cause you did NOT read them, so stop lying. I have addressed every single point of yours multiple times and you fail to reply back to that

and to show how much of a lying pos you are:

And dude, you don't even read my replies wtf?

are you serious right now? are you fcking serious right now? I'M the one who isn't reading the posts????

I REPLIED BACK TO EVERY SINGLE POINT YOU HAVE MADE, EVERY SINGLE ONE YOU JACKASS. I literally QUOTED EVERY SINGLE POINT YOU MADE AND REPLIED TO IT

every single point you have made in the past 5 days, I REPLIED BACK TO EVERY SINGLE ONE YOU FCK, quoting means I read every single point you've made

you are the one who has ADMITTIED to not reading my posts, and continues to not read my posts. Holy fck, not only are your a sore loser, you are a laying sack of :/

your whole point is your own opinion on the subject

HAHAHAHA, you can't even write out what my points is cause you have zero idea what I've written xD Not reading my argument = you have no idea, and I'm sure those "big words" and paragraphs I used scared you xD

and fyi, I provided you with links to articles with facts and details on the law, not opinion. You know, FACTS <--- the thing used to support your position and is used to make an argument

Again, if you read you would know. But this just is more proof you are lying and haven't read anything

doesn't correlate with this story

I have addressed your exception point separate from the law and "books" (wtf do you even mean by books?). As you did not read my posts, you don't know that but I have looked at this story from multiple viewpoints and NONE of them agree with your position that this relationship is good in any way.

ADULTS SHOULD NOT DATE MINORS, the end and no exception. You failed to even morally justify this story

MC is a creep, failed parent and terrible adult

YOU'RE USING CURRENT LAWS AND MORALS TO SUPPORT YOUR POINT

OH NOOOOO, I'M USING FACTS TO SUPPORT MY ARGUMENT, REEEEEEEEE

yes, I am using facts to support my argument unlike how you use nothing to support yours. And again, I also presented you with the viewpoint of not using laws/morals and STILL the story is wrong.

And btw, you are the only who kept on focusing on morals, wtf are you on about? oh wait, you mean "current"... ah yes, cause we should judge this story on some future law/moral that may or may not be different that today, cause you actually think that makes sense

Seriously, you're so focused on "winning over" "owning" your "opponent" you're making the things you're accusing me of

no, I'm tired of focusing on getting your ass to READ MY POSTS. You have been trying to argue without reading what I am writing, wtf kind of argument is this? How dumb are you to think you can have even a discussion if you cannot even read what the other person is saying?

then you keep on replying back to me with the SAME POINTS I ALREADY ADDRESSED, over and over. Hence me accusing you of logical fallacies and bad faith argument.

every single thing I have accused you of, is true and what you've done. You are so pathetic, you can't even reply back to my accusations directly to disprove them. Instead you are just crying about me being mean or w.e

I've presented them, you just don't want to see them that way, that's a valid point but you're just unable to understand that every single person can view a situation differently.

how can you have a valid point without anything to back up that point? saying "oh muh point is valid" doesn't mean shit, opinion =/= fact. You cannot argue a position without anything to back you up.

hence why I asked you to research the topic. There is no "viewing this differently" cause laws/facts/data/morals/ethics/past cases/reality exists and all apply in this situation. And it doesn't matter is some pedo things "oh it's fine to date a minor", cause opinion =/= fact. That's not how the world works you idiot

if the MC was presented to a court using the facts and evidence of this story, he'd be in jail and/or registered on sex offenders list. He'd also lose custody of his kid cause he's a failure of a father and he's have a restraining order against him with koto.

no point on answering the rest of it, you're just incapable of understanding of what we're discussing and don't want to argue, you just want to bulldozer your point.

HAHAHAHAA, you serious right now? I'm the one who doesn't understand? kek stuff mate, doing the thing where the loser knows he lost, so turns to the "oh you just don't understand the topic" accusation cause you haven nothing left

also lol at "no point answering", more like "I've not read anything you wrote so I can't answer anything" <--- stop lying

just fyi, your "argument" is that "laws/morals may or may not change over time, so we cannot use them to judge this story" the end. Wtf kind of argument is that? -_-

then when you did reply back (finally) on other points like MC being a terrible father, creep, failure as adult, koto having mental issues, father figure and so on... I replied back to ALL of the few points you made, and showed how you were WRONG. I literally linked to to articles showing how koto has mental issues and is looking for a father figure, I literally replied back to one question where you demanded me to show "Well, present to me the facts regarding why a relationship between an adult and a minor is inherently bad." and I linked you to articles/law showing those facts

annnnd look at that, you completely ignored even that part of my reply cause you know you are wrong in basically everything. Man, you've lost so hard you can't even reply back to one single point I've made xD

seriously what a rude and unfaithful person you are, I'm regretting ever talking with you, what a waste of time and fingers

right back at you, I love how you say this to me and accuse me of not reading the posts WHEN YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ADMITTED TO DOING THAT AND DID SO AGAIN NOW

typical losers of an argument, running away and ignoring how they got destroyed in the argument, with no point to make. So they turn to trying to attack the other person and reply back with irrelevant shit

fck off dude

humans are notorious for thinking and you seem to be a parrot

LOL, I love it when the dude who has "I like keekis and twintailed lolis" tries to say random shit to try and sound smart xD or when you tried to give me advise xD

maybe the jordan gif was too much for you, so here's an anime version for the loli lover:

 

[estrombico]

@voidox you sure did, the things you wanted to :3

Oh yeah because someone who has silly stuff to make people laugh in their profile are dumb xDDDDDDDDDDDD but thanks for visiting my profile! most appreciated <3
Get some thinking help "jackass" and stop being and embarrasment to us all.

And stop pretending you're reading my posts at all, you clearly are not so... move along.

 

[princess_daphie]

the comments sure got in a state Megumin would be proud of 😅

Spoiler

comment war ekusupuroojon!

 

[JiiroSadWeeb]

Lmao an epic loser degen virgins fight

 

[voidox]

@estrombico sure buddy, me quoting every single point u made = not reading, I must've quoted them without reading them... somehow

read my posts, I've addressed ALL ur terrible and weakass points. Though, I'm sure even you realise that and it's why you are not reading them. Since you've lost, how about stop being a sore loser cause u have no argument and stop lying.

kthxbai

 

[estrombico]

@voidox addressing what you wanted to address and making assumptions out of context regarding this story just to accomodate your version.
You're not at fault, everyone does that nowadays they ignore facts and make up facts, for your information laws and morals are not facts, because a fact cannot be subjected to interpretation, btw this is one of its definition used in law.

Law mass noun The truth about events as opposed to interpretation.

AND seeing that people are reading our comments I'll give to them something. He's only reading/addressing what he wants to and answer in consequence to accomodate his oppinions.

it seems like you have no idea what power difference means, seeing as how you think it's only about force. This is why I've repeatedly said to REASEARCH the topic

also, that was not my only point, but nice of you to cherry pick one thing to attack me with

and this is what I wrote at firs

I dislike with passion when someone talks about power differences and so on, get real that exists and will always exists on every single interaction between humans and honestly can't see that being an issue just because one part is a minor. You know why? because as I said happens all the time between adults, is something normal because surprise surprise.. we can't be exactly the same.
I don't see the mc using his past experiences/power/whatever to coerce the fmc to his bidding, in fact I see him very clumsy and her more in power of the relationship.

So, voidox, tell me. Why did you answered that? I will tell you, because you only read power difference and answered without reading the whole point.
I get it, you don't want to read and have been skimming through my answers.

AND AS I SAID MULTIPLE TIMES I'VE NOT ANSWERED YOUR POINTS AFTER I SAID I WILL NOT READ YOUR REPLIES, AND SADLY I HAVE READ THEM WHOLE
That's why I said what I said. Can't say you're unfaithful, rude and so on without reading your replies.


AND AS YOU SAID, CHILDREN AND ADULTS SHOULD NOT HAVE RELATIONSHIPS, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY CANNOT HAVE THEM

I'm not shouting at you, only using caps so you will read at least those two sentences, because you only read and answer whatever suits you, typical of journalists, are you a journalist? if no, please refrain to act like one.

 

[voidox]

@estrombico uhuh, no one is arguing if adult and minor can have a relationship, the point is that they should not, no exception at all. Wtf kind of argument is "oh they can have it, but it's wrong"? anything can happen, that's not the fcking point of this

and again, read my previous posts as I've gone over all ur points. Power difference is not only about force was not my full point, I directly addressed ur point that you bolded, maybe read what I wrote in full. Stop cherry picking points and ignoring my argument.

He's only reading/addressing what he wants to and answer in consequence to accomodate his oppinions.

hahahahaha, stop lying dude, just stop. Don't accuse me of "reading what I want" or cherry picking when I've literally quoted and replied to every single point you've made, while you have not and have admitted to not reading my posts.

kthxbai~

 

[estrombico]

@voidox dude, you cannot label every relationship the same, is not fucked up its a possibility, why is it so hard for you to understand that not everyone thinks like you?

AND AGAIN YOU'VE DONE IT AGAIN, I'm done with you really.

Yeah sure, I'm the liar, whatever rocks your boat.

Very cute, a shame her show was boring.
And very cute to say that again and again :3

 

[voidox]

@estrombico I have quoted and replied to every point you have made, including this one here. I have not once said "all relationships are the same" nor have I said "I speak for everyone".

I have analysed this messed up relationship in multiple ways, not just one, and NONE of them support your position of this being an exception. You have provided ZERO reasons as to why this relationship is good or not fcked up, the weak ones that you did I showed didn't hold up in the face of logic, facts and reasoning.

So again, stop making shit up and putting words in my mouth. Go read my previous posts or stfu

also, stop lying cause I've not "done anything". Jesus, the dude who literally admitted to not reading my posts (multiple times btw) is now trying to say I'm the one doing that, kek stuff

kthxbai~

 

[estrombico]

@voidox you've replied to what you wanted, that's fair
And you're saying that ._.

You really are obnoxious, whatever, go and write a book about how people don't read your posts before saying they did xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD you've a bestseller there friend

 

[voidox]

@estrombico lul, you can't even write properly while you try and sound smart. And nah, we can't have a book written as we all know how big words and paragraphs scare you. Poor kid like yourself would be in tears facing a book.

ah well, I guess ur going to continue acting like you didn't straight up say you weren't reading my posts. Amazing how you've kept rattling off a bunch of nonsense as you have no idea what my points were, especially since you never had a real argument to begin with and can't read.

yawn, I guess keep on being the sore loser trying desperately to sound smart and accusing me of the exact shit you did. Ironic really, you actually using obnoxious towards me when you type like that and continue doing what you're doing

kthnxbai~

 

[estrombico]

@voidox amazing how you can ignore what you want and have the face to say it

Very cute gif :3