Musume no Tomodachi - Vol. 7 Ch. 58 - The End of a Long Night

[spidersonbikes]

@estrombico

The issue is 100% that she's a minor. There's no way around that in my mine. A minor with parental/at home issues that make her easy to be taken advantage of by adults. Maybe he's not some scheming pedo but he's still a weak willed creep. I usually don't give half a shit about an age gap when both parties are legal adults but that is not the case.

If he wasn't trying to pursue her romantically or sexually and was actually just trying to support her it'd be fine, but that's not what this manga is about. And yes she may have made the first move but he was 100% able to say no every time, I don't care what was going on with his daughter at home.

 

[estrombico]

@spidersonbikes so if she were eight whole months older everything will be fine even if someone took advantage of her shitty situation?
Seems like you're forcing your moral values onto someone when said someone is not even doing a bad deed.

Weak willed creep, so everyone who lost his reason to live and has a difficult situation at home? xD sorry but that's twisting the rope too much. i guess he was a creep with his wife and daughter as well.
Not even sure if we've read the same manga. He's pursuing her sure, but he hasn't done anything immoral with her and doesn't plan to or at least that's how I see him. And you know why? because he knows she's a minor and doesn't want to take advantage of her, he only wants her to be happy and solve her problems.


I'm sorry but... good luck finding someone who's willing to support you emotionally like a lover but doesn't see you as one, not even a friend who has grow up with you will be capable of that and you know why? because you don't need a friend.
Honestly can't see why you care so much on this particular situation that she's a minor, if the situation was like that other manga (I shaved then I brought blablabla) and you found creeps who took advantage of the female mc well sure, I'm disgusted at that and that's being a really shitty "person" but on this case? can't see what's bad about it.
Can't see this as a somewhat twisted pure relationship.

And I'm not even trying to change your opinion, just stating the obvious in my opinion.

 

[Krisawo]

Naughty boy. Naughty noncey boy.

 

[Candymon]

Let's see where all these flags that have been raised over the last several chapters are leading...

 

[DanceInTheDark]

fbi open up

 

[Zanoji]

i've said what many times i can hear macklemore singing thrift shop

 

[GiuBell]

When is going to come out the chap 59 in english? ._____.

 

[princess_daphie]

@GiuBell if the schedule on the publisher's site doesn't change for unforeseen reasons, it'll be Wednesday at around the same time!

 

[Ryomi]

O O O F

Ok, I don't remember if she's 16 or 17. In some countries once you turn 16 you're able to freely consent, in others only when the age-gap is small and with other teens, but I don't know how is it in Japan. Our boy is playing a really dangerous game here.

 

[voidox]

jail

also this middle age man knows this young girl has issues, real mental issues from her parents and home life. But instead of getting or even asking her if she needs real help, he's ignoring it all, as well as his own personal problems of being a terrible father, to pursue her romantically :/

also, this supposed father literally abandoned his own daughter to chase after a minor. holy yikes

@spidersonbikes agreed, dude is a creep and this is a fcked up relationship. lol at the other dude saying "her being a minor doesn't matter", ignoring the very real reason why age of consent exists both as a real world law and morally/ethically. Her being a minor is, as you put it, 100% a real and big issue

@estrombico

he only wants her to be happy and solve her problems

I mean, if he truly did care for her happiness and to solve her problems, he'd get her real help for her issues and not be running after her to profess his creepy ass love -_-

she has real mental issues from her father's abandonment, hence her seeking out adult male figures i.e. father figures, as well as the terrible home life with her mother. And the MC knows this, yet has done nothing about it despite being the adult who clearly sees a troubled child.

not even doing a bad deed

going after minors is against the law, even if he doesn't physically do anything he is still pursuing her and not flat out saying no to her advances. And he HAS done things to her: he's kissed her multiple times, been very close to her multiple times, went to a love hotel and she was completely nude on top of him... like wtf u mean he has done a bad deed?

fyi, age of consent is 18 in Tokyo and she's at most 16. So just off that he's done a bad deed

if ppl found out a 40+ year old dude was dating a 15 year old girl, had her naked on him, was kissing her multiple times = real trouble

Weak willed creep, so everyone who lost his reason to live and has a difficult situation at home?

accurate description of the MC, and no, everyone who loses their reason to live/difficult life at home is not a creep unless they too go after minors

MC has been a real terrible father who has basically neglected his child . The major reason why he has issues at home is directly his fault as the parent.

He pretty much never around when she was a kid. He was too busy with work even while his wife was on her deathbed. He was busy with work after she died as well and didn't take the chance to reconnect with her

then he goes seeking a relationship with a minor -_- you don't do that, you go get professional help yourself to mange things, cause he's a freaking adult. If things get too much to handle, you don't abandon your child and be a creep

 

[spidersonbikes]

@voidox

lol thank you, sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy reading all the comments rooting for this relationship to succeed it's wild and the power imbalance is just...gross

 

[voidox]

@spidersonbikes ya, there are some real hard self-inserters who are crazily desperate in wanting the MC to have sex with the 15-16 year old girl. They try and find any way to defend the father (ignoring how he's a creep, terrible parent who neglected his kid even when his wife was dying, terrible adult and so much more) while blaming the daughter as if she's the villain -_-

and ya, holy yikes with the underage, power imbalance, age of consent being 18, the dude is freaking 40+ and so on

 

[princess_daphie]

🤣 i mean, reading long comments like those takes a lot of time. can't imagine writing them. my brain can't manage coherent thoughts to that extent, I'd have to microsoft excel this to manage it i think.

but i'll still translate this story 'til the end, no matter the outcome, that's for sure! 🙃

 

[estrombico]

@voidox that's your opinion and the one who's inserting and wanting everyone to follow them is only you.

If you can't see that everyone sees the world differently from you and accept that, honestly don't know what to say.

So, to ease your understanding.
You don't see a minor as a love interest, check. Neither do I.
You can't see yourself going and waiting for a minor to be "an adult", check. Me neither.
But, can you really see THIS concrete situation as something dangerous for the minor? can you see the minor in a situation of stress because of it? going for a minor is not legal (can't remember how old Koto is but iirc if she's 16 and has the consent of her guardians she can even marry the mc in Japan).
Is the minor who's going towards the adult, the adult has not put her in any kind of situation to force or route her towards him. Its not moral to not say no to her? I honestly don't know and its something that everyone should ask themselves and don't force their moral points on others just because they see it as something not normal.

What's normal? being in a serious relationship at 20ish, after five years living together, have kids and then divorce because one of them is not faithful? that's the norm nowadays and what's making children mad. Its that your normal? because for me this story is not the norm but I dont see it as not moral or something that should be hunted and neither see our current norm as how a normal relationship should work.

@spidersonbikes because you can't see the whole picture and what only matters for you is the age, not the feelings of both parties involved.
Why should you be the judge of them? what power do you have over them? your morality? what's not moral now can be moral 50 years from now. Just accept that people should be happy and not bound to norms as long as they're not harming each other.

@princess_daphie just forget about this and keep translating <3 is a waste of time to discuss with those types of paladins of morality, because they're just that, zealots that can't see every case differently and judge everything the same.
Thanks for the work, as always :3

 

[voidox]

@estrombico

is a waste of time to discuss with those types of paladins of morality, because they're just that, zealots that can't see every case differently and judge everything the same

what?

so the only person with the "correct" opinion or take is you cause you love this manga? and since we don't like the story or have issues with it, we are just "zealots"? and we're literally judging this story with the details that we have, wtf do you even mean "judge everything the same"? people who use real world laws/morals = "paladins of morality"? so we should just ignore all these laws and morals and let adults date underage kids cause you wanna be edgy or something (fight the norms bs) -_-

this just shows how much your lack on knowledge is on the issues of adults and underage kids/age of consent/grooming/predators/pressure and so on. Now I don't blame you for that since you do have to put in some research in these areas. But if you are going to reply and argue on this matter while not having the knowledge to back your points up, I will and am going to call you out.

and just fyi, people exist with different opinions than you as well the fact that all fiction is open to critics. Don't whine cause people don't like your manga, if you can't handle your precious manga getting criticism, then leave instead of ad hominem attacks
_______________________________________________________________

back on topic, time for some words and walls of text to debunk your weak argument and defense of this story if you can't handle or are not willing to read and educate yourself on the issue of adults/underage kids, then please just leave cause I won't repeat myself.

And yes, I'm going to write some paragraphs on the topic, so hopefully words don't scare you as we need words for proper arguments and to explain out points:

Spoiler

she's 15-16 years old, the age of consent in Tokyo is 18 and the mother does not approve at all of the MC. So there goes any and all legal support for this creep. The MC is 40+ and has gone past physical with a minor (kissing, hugging, naked) all the while literally ignoring and abandoning his own daughter. He has also chosen to completely ignore helping Koto despite knowing her situation and issues.

and what the MC has done with koto is continue to indulge in her advances, tell her about his creepy love just after she was almost raped (once again ignoring everything but himself), abandoned his kid on the side of the road, says "it's your choice" to a 15-16 year old despite age of consent being 18 and so on

how exactly are we supposed to judge this any different? I literally cannot think how else you can judge this, how the hell are you actually defending this???

the only way this story could be judged differently, is if the MC was a good parent to his own child as well as was seeking to actually help Koto with her real issues and mental stability. But he is not.

But, can you really see THIS concrete situation as something dangerous for the minor?

yes it can be dangerous for the minor cause the adult is not being an adult. He is indulging in his creepy ass love just to feel better about his shitty life. He hasn't shown real care or concern for koto's issues or troubles cause he's never once gotten her real professional help or someone to talk to about her situation.

she is a minor and cannot give consent as she is under 18, so it very much is on the adult to be an actual adult in this situation. So yes, it already is dangerous for her.I really hope I don't have to explain the other matter of the literal power imbalance with all this.

the adult has not put her in any kind of situation to force or route her towards him.

firstly, yes he has by continuing to indulge in her advances and literally kissing her multiple times. Now he's professed his creepy ass love and forced her to make a decision about him despite not being 18. She literally can't give consent because she is below the age of consent, yet he just forced that on her and accepted her decision = fcked up

If he was not a creep, he would have properly shut her down in the beginning and actually seen to getting her some help for her troubles, cause she really does need help for her real mental issues. And he would have also gone to get help for his own personal issues/stress instead of using a minor to feel better :/

and if you think the only way adult x underage is wrong is when the adult forces themselves on the kid, I ask that you educate yourself on this issue. You'll see that no, there are so many different ways of adults taking advantage of kids, even ones that seem nice or friendly on the outside.

as an example: If you think abusers can't groom their victims to give "consent" then you are underestimating how horrible they can be. That's why age of consent laws matter.

And the real horrible thing, paradoxically, is that in many cases this is exactly how predators convince themselves that it's not horrible. "I didn't force her to go along with me so what I'm doing can't be that bad."

Scary how the mind can justify itself in whatever it 'needs' to, kinda like what you are trying to do here and the MC himself was doing in previous chapters. "Oh he didn't force her, so MC is not in the wrong"

Its not moral to not say no to her? I honestly don't know and its something that everyone should ask themselves and don't force their moral points on others just because they see it as something not normal.

adults should not date/have relations with underage kids, period. It is morally, ethically and legally wrong. So yes, there is nothing to think about here and this is "not normal" for a fcking reason mate. As I said above, if the MC was not a creep, he would have done the right thing for Koto AND his own daughter

that's an important point btw, not only has the MC failed to be a good adult with Koto, he has completely failed as a father to his own daughter. His wife dying and stress are not valid excuses for neglecting his child, not seeking professional help or someone to help raise his kid or going after a minor to feel better.

What's normal? being in a serious relationship at 20ish, after five years living together, have kids and then divorce because one of them is not faithful? that's the norm nowadays and what's making children mad. Its that your normal? because for me this story is not the norm but I dont see it as not moral or something that should be hunted and neither see our current norm as how a normal relationship should work.

nice tangent here, but those examples have nothing to do with what's being discussed. And no, the norm is not early marriage, kids and divorce. Don't say stupid stuff or opinion and treat it as fact especially when you have no proof or data to back up your claim.

Also, don't know why you bring up "normal" cause I sure never did and holy hell you are really generalizing things. You accuse me of "the one who's inserting and wanting everyone to follow them is only you." and you actually wrote this? like wat? Why are you trying to make it like I think that whole thing is "my normal"? don't put words into my mouth

lol, I won't repeat myself as to why, but if you think this story is fine and should be normal, holy yikes dude. You actually think it's fine for adults to date underage kids, jesus

because you can't see the whole picture and what only matters for you is the age, not the feelings of both parties involved.

cause laws exist for these types of situations, and feelings don't overrule a law. Also almost anyone with good and sane morals would agree that a 40+ man should not be dating a 15-16 year old kid. Even in countries with age of consent at 16, there are laws that still protect the kids from adults as those laws are more for people around their age.

Why should you be the judge of them? what power do you have over them? your morality? what's not moral now can be moral 50 years from now. Just accept that people should be happy and not bound to norms as long as they're not harming each other.

LOL, this "norms" you keep bringing up as if that's an excuse. It's not about norms when it comes to adults and underage kids, it's about protecting children from creeps, predators, abusers, pedos, pressure and so on. There is a reason age of consent, statutory rape and other such laws exists.

Also, not harming each other is not the only criteria here, it is just one of many things. I'm just going to assume you are misinformed or unaware, but physical harm is not the only reason we have laws against adults x underage kids.

like holy hell, I do not want to live in your world where you think the "norm" should be that it's fine for adults to dating little kids cause they have "feelings" or w.e -_-

and just as a side note, with how shitty a person the MC is, whose to even say he can make Koto happy seeing how he doesn't seem to even care about helping her, his own daughter, his family before his wife died and even no care about helping himself. And koto's mental issues and family situation are pretty much forcing her to desperately seek out a father figure in her life, an escape if you will. She is in no way near the correct state of mind to even know if she wants to have a romantic relationship

so dunno where this assumptions comes that "oh they'll be happy together" xD it's like you aren't even reading the manga

and with that, back to cyberpunk

 

[princess_daphie]

@estrombico thank you! 😊 i'll do just that and keep on truckin' lol

 

[estrombico]

@voidox I'm not saying mine is the correct answer, neither do I endorse this kind of relationship because as the both of you point out, they tend to be gross and have a creep adult behind them.
But that's not the case here or at least I only see an attempt for a serious relationship.

But he hasn't abandoned his daughter? He's trying to help her as well.
I'm defending this because I can only see this as a good way to make Koto realize how shitty her mother is while exploring herself by being just her with a person she likes, is that hard to understand?
He's human and is trying to be a good parent, I can't ask of him more.

Can be dangerous, but it is? you can't only spout creepy ass love and be done with your argument.
Uh WAIT WAIT WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIT
So, if you care for someone you should send them to get "professional" help? what Koto needs is a bloody hug and someone that sees her for what she is not a projection of her mother.
Stop trying to make your argument all around that. Theft is morally wrong and people can defend it depending on the situation.
I don't want to argue about what's legal or not I'm arguing about this situation, leave the legal things to the lawyers.

Because she's not an adult she can give her consent... that's fucked up. She can give her consent BUT said consent cannnot be legally approved, that's totally different eh.
I won't """""educate"""""" myself reading books that fucked up people write to tag every person the same, I extend the offer to you and I press you to think for yourself and reach your own conclusion without the help of the so called experts.
That's another case and that's psychological abuse, we can argue if there's something like that on this series but what you're pointing out is the creep that goes to the train, grooms a minor and said minor after awhile "consents" to it. Not the case here.
He didn't force her to do anything, in the eyes of society he did something wrong but in the eyes of individuals maybe not.

Its history time
Did you know that it was normal in ancient Greece/Rome to have lovers (male) that were minors and when they reached the age of 21 it was considered immoral to be in a same sex relationship after that?
Our moral concepts change overtime, that's normal and inevitable, more the reason to think for ourselves and do what we consider good.
Really scary how someone can denounce a person so harshly before said person has done something bad to another.


Its not normal for our current morality code ._. not because is something totally wrong about it. Is wrong having a "relation" with a minor but in this case she's only a minor legally and our morality is forcing that onto her.
Your fucking reason MATE is your current moral code that your current society has put inside your head, nothing more than that it has meaning for you, maybe it doesnt for me, it wont have meaning for your grandchildren.


Is not a tangent, I'm showing to you what's normal now can be morally wrong in past or future generations. But if you can't see because you've your head inside your bubble I can't do more.
Research for a bit, in the US almost half of the marriages end in divorce and I've seen it spiking for the past ten years in my family/friends. This is my own experience and doesn't hold anything of statically significance but it showed to me the stats maybe were not wrong.
WOAH WOAH WOAH I'VE NOT SAID THIS

lol, I won't repeat myself as to why, but if you think this story is fine and should be normal, holy yikes dude. You actually think it's fine for adults to date underage kids, jesus

I even have said I don't endorse that, but on THIS CONCRETE SITUATION, I see no harm.
Man, I can't see you as more of a troll or some "paladin of justice now" xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD the MC is not going for Koto because she's a minor and weak, he's going for her because he has realized he likes her and wants a serious relationship with her and will carry everything the society has to offer to him to defend that. It won't work but both of them want that.


Live in society, stop reading and experience the things, I wont bother read the rest of your reply after that, it has showcased me how much of a simpleton you're and how little you try to understand others. Very sad.
My advive (I know you won't do shit about it but oh well, maybe the kind reader who bothers to read this will grab it)
Don't go for underage people, go for the one you love as simple as that age/race/whatever are only important for people
Don't trust other people judgement and make it a fact for yourself, think about it and decide what's wrong and what's not
Ponder the laws and think why they're there and if they apply to your situation, if you can see them backfiring on you don't do it unless you're prepared for it.
Read more of opinions different from you and I don't mean people stating "facts", laws or "moral codes" I mean people who actually think and can build and argument around a concrete situation. Even if something is morally wrong (for us) it doesn't mean its inherently bad, nor makes ancient people immoral because of that or us better individuals.
Study history, anthropology and biology, study your society and the individuals who make it, maybe you will realize the people endorsing certain moral codes are the immoral ones or maybe you won't because they're not. But surely it will enlarge your views a bit and stop having your head inside your own ass.



Have a nice day and christmas if you celebrate it, if not have a good end of year

 

[voidox]

@estrombico LOL, I love how you admit you haven't read most of my reply cause you know I destroyed your weak argument and points xD I literally called it that you would do this in my previous reply, and here you are doing just that

So before I once again tear down what you call an argument, you keep going on and on about moral code despite my argument barely being about that. But just to state things for you and what the world's moral code is on this topic:

adults should never date underage kids, period and done. No exception, no defense, no "oh but feelings", no nothing.

if you actually think there is even an exception for that, like you are with this story, ask yourself: would you be cool if you had a 15 year old sister/daughter, and a 40+ man was "helping" and hanging out with her. That help being going on dates with her, kissing her, having her fully naked on top of him, him professing his fcked up "love" to her, him asking her "date me when ur older" despite her not being able to give consent and so on (all things MC did with koto)

ya, I didn't think so and this pretty much sums up my argument and why this relationship is completely messed up

and to this point some people are making about "oh they'll be happy together", no they won't cause this relationship is not healthy in any way:

Spoiler

you really think a man who can't function as an adult can "make her happy"? a man who is using a 15 year old girl to run away from his problems and stress? a man who has neglected his own daughter for years, even after her mother died? a man who literally abandoned his daughter on side of the road to chase after a 15 year old?

and from the other side: a girl who is desperate for a father figure and is seeking one out sexually to get the attention and comfort she lacks from her real father? a girl with real mental issues and facing child abuse from her mother? I could go on but you get my point here

no, even if we put aside the whole underage matter, this relationship is not healthy and there is no happy ending for them getting together

now I'm going to point out how much nonsense you are spouting and how much you are arguing in bad faith:

Spoiler

most of your reply is completely off-topic and you keep attacking me, instead of addressing my points. Classic move by people who lose an argument yet don't want to admit defeat.

Then you go and literally admit you used opinion to make grand assumptions and treat that as fact. You also admit to not being educated/researched on this topic yet continue to argue on it and even then demand I should research some topics you bring up (without any detail or what to focus on, just naming some topics), even when YOU yourself clearly haven't researched those either cause you actually wrote:

maybe you will realize the people endorsing certain moral codes are the immoral ones or maybe you won't because they're not

so they might be right but also might be wrong <--- that's your point xD

Here's some advise for you:

https://fs.blog/2014/10/the-ten-golden-rules-of-argument/

Make sure you know the essential points you want to make. Research the facts you need to convince your opponent.

Spoiler

I would also accuse you of some intellectual dishonesty :/

Then the biggest joke is when you actually say that you won't research on the topic cause "reading books that fucked up people write, so called experts" when the research involves learning about the details of LAWS... like wow dude, so laws and the people who came up with these laws/morals = wrong

also, funny how you keep going on and on about morals, and only focus on that while ignoring and never addressing the law in question. My argument barely touches on morals and is focused on the law. Though, you also make a point to say "laws can be ignored based on feelings and own judgement" or w.e that dumb point was, so I guess not too surprising -_-

and then you actually wrote this:

Read more of opinions different from you and I don't mean people stating "facts", laws or "moral codes" I mean people who actually think and can build and argument around a concrete situation

hahahahahaha xD you do realise that these people who would make a "concrete argument on a real situation", would use facts/laws/moral codes to do so. You do realise that stating facts/laws/moral codes is also a concrete argument

then let's not get started on the irrelevant stuff you keep bringing up (greek history for example) and try and use to make some point, red herring fallacy. You did all this a lot in ur OP.

Man, we could bring up a list of logical fallacies and your "argument" (both this and ur OP) would be filled with them: from strawmanning to ad hominem to red herring to hasty/sweeping generalizations. Heck, you even have a few sentences where you stray into moral equivalence, like bringing up past or actually trying to say theft is the same as underage kids

then much of your "argument" is just circular argument on display: you make a claim, re-state it as your proof without ever explaining or make a real argument as to why it's true. You tell me to go research and study irrelevant stuff, but you have zero examples/points to make in regards to that showing that YOU haven't done this research yourself xD

annnd then you go on and on about how I should "ignore society and normal"... like wtf are you a edgy teen rebel or something? -_-

__________________________________________________________________________________

so against my better judgment, I guess I'll still reply to you mostly point by point as I respect having a proper debate even though you clearly don't... I 100% expect that you will ignore most of what I'll write here, still not read my previous post and continue to not research the topic:

Spoiler

But he hasn't abandoned his daughter? He's trying to help her as well.

He's human and is trying to be a good parent, I can't ask of him more.

he literally abandons her on side of road, he has neglected her well-being and care since even before his wife died. After she died, he left her in her room and did nothing real to help her, or get some help.

He's been a terrible parent and has barely shown any attempt at being better. "He's human" does not excuse him being a shitty parent and adult, not seeking help even for himself if he couldn't handle things.

I can only see this as a good way to make Koto realize how shitty her mother is while exploring herself by being just her with a person she likes, is that hard to understand?

cool, he can do that WITHOUT trying to date her, i.e. not be a pedo and creep

So, if you care for someone you should send them to get "professional" help?

100% yes, if you personally cannot help someone but you know of their problems, you get them help. You don't just leave them or ignore things. You do know the point or what professional help is right? why is it in quotes?

Koto needs is a bloody hug and someone that sees her for what she is not a projection of her mother.

sure, she also needs real professional help to manage her mental issues from the abuse and her father leaving, as well as child services to help with her home situation. "A bloody hug" is not real help

Theft is morally wrong and people can defend it depending on the situation.
I don't want to argue about what's legal or not I'm arguing about this situation, leave the legal things to the lawyers.

lol what? theft =/= pedophilia and child abuse, completely different things mate

and no, age of consent has laws that you follow. You don't need lawyers to tell you that ADULTS SHOULD NOT DATE KIDS. Simple

Because she's not an adult she can give her consent... that's fucked up. She can give her consent BUT said consent cannnot be legally approved, that's totally different eh.

that's how age of consent works mate, an underage kid CANNOT give consent cause they are not at the age to do so. They should never be in a situation that requires consent of sexual/romantic nature cause the ADULT knows not to do so. That's the whole point of age of consent, and hell, it's not just with consent as parents are the legal guardians for almost everything until a child turns 18.

I won't """""educate"""""" myself reading books that fucked up people write to tag every person the same, I extend the offer to you and I press you to think for yourself and reach your own conclusion without the help of the so called experts.

uhuh, you won't do research on age of consent laws as those are all "books written by fcked up ppl"... wtf? I have done my research on age of consent and related matters cause laws exist for these things, as well as morality and ethics (such as with student/teacher situations).

Wtf do you mean "so called experts? what is wrong with you? are you telling me to ignore LAWS of the world? jesus dude, I don't even know what to say cept you have one messed up view if you thinks laws should be ignored, and people who come up and write these laws are "fcked up".

He didn't force her to do anything, in the eyes of society he did something wrong but in the eyes of individuals maybe not.

refer back to my point on this, I won't repeat myself. Read what I'm writing as I explain things. Also, if the MC thinks it's not wrong to be kissing a minor, taking her to love hotel, having her naked on top of him, that it's alright to confess his messed up love for her and so on... then he needs to be in jail.

and MC has done all that, again, without ever getting Koto real help for her problems that he knows she is facing in her life. She was almost raped, and all he could think about was "I love you" -_-

Its history time

you keep bringing up irrelevant points, stop doing this. History has nothing to do with this topic

Really scary how someone can denounce a person so harshly before said person has done something bad to another.

nah, it's more scary how you think the MC has not done anything bad or that you think the only bad thing is physical. Though even then, MC has done physical stuff to Koto

Your fucking reason MATE is your current moral code that your current society has put inside your head, nothing more than that it has meaning for you, maybe it doesnt for me, it wont have meaning for your grandchildren.

my current society? my current moral code? my grandchildren? wat? jesus christ dude, wtf is wrong with you?

I'm using real world laws and morals of the world, what world do you live in such that "they don't matter to you"? holy yikes dude, you can't just ignore reality cause you love this manga or personally think it's cool for an adult to date a minor -_-

Its not a tangent, I'm showing to you what's normal now can be morally wrong in past or future generations.

This is my own experience and doesn't hold anything of statically significance but it showed to me the stats maybe were not wrong.

you have shown ZERO proof or data to back up your claim that those examples are "normal". You literally saying "this is my own experience" is hilarious, cause you are destroying your own point in your own argument xD

So again, either show proof or stop making stupid assumptions/generalisations as they don't mean anything.

Also, what is morally wrong in the past/future has NOTHING to do with the present as they don't affect the present, this is known as red herring fallacy. Don't do this.

the MC is not going for Koto because she's a minor and weak, he's going for her because he has realized he likes her and wants a serious relationship with her and will carry everything the society has to offer to him to defend that

1) there is no excuse for an adult going after a minor, laws are laws and adults know these laws. He's still going after her.

2) what the MC is "feeling" doesn't matter, there is no clause in age of consent laws for "oh the adult truly wants a real relationship" or w.e. And if the MC thinks it's fine to have a "serious relationship" with a minor, holy yikes dude

I see no harm.

so you don't endorse it, but you see no harm here and want to defend it. aite

Live in society, stop reading and experience the things

eat food, stop ordering takeout and experience the things... see, I can write a bunch of words that make no point as well

Live in society, stop reading and experience the things, I wont bother read the rest of your reply after that, it has showcased me how much of a simpleton you're and how little you try to understand others. Very sad.

ah yes, ignore parts of my reply cause you know you have no argument to make against it xD Annnnd more ad hominem attacks, classy move dude

I went about taking your argument mostly point and point, and replying with detail on how wrong you are. If you can't even read that, then don't reply

Don't go for underage people, go for the one you love as simple as that age/race/whatever are only important for people

if the "one you love" is underage, then NO you don't go for them and you DON'T fall in love with KIDS in the first place. It's important for everyone mate

Don't trust other people judgement and make it a fact for yourself, think about it and decide what's wrong and what's not

sure, in a general sense this is an okay advice of "think for yourself". But here's the rub: we are talking about LAWS which do not have room to be by bypassed by anyone based on their feelings/judgement. Laws are laws, and if you don't know what a law is:

the system of rules which a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and which it may enforce by the imposition of penalties

I don't know about you, but I am not going to "fight against laws" cause of "oh my feelings" and I follow the laws of my country cause I don't want to end up in jail. I seriously suggest you learn to understand that laws matter and are real, you need to follow them

Ponder the laws and think why they're there and if they apply to your situation, if you can see them backfiring on you don't do it unless you're prepared for it.

FOLLOW THE LAW, simple

and if you ever have to "ponder a law", then get a lawyer.... don't just do shit on your own cause 9.9/10 times the law is correct and should be followed.

Even if something is morally wrong (for us) it doesn't mean its inherently bad, nor makes ancient people immoral because of that or us better individuals.

what even is the point of this? has nothing to do with the argument on hand and you are now just spouting out pseudo intellectual stuff

Study history, anthropology and biology, study your society and the individuals who make it, maybe you will realize the people endorsing certain moral codes are the immoral ones or maybe you won't because they're not..

Or maybe, you need to realise I'm using LAWS and not morals. I have brought up laws in my argument, and barely touched on morals. If you bothered to read, you'd know that. It's telling how you continue to ignore and not address the law itself, and just go "oh ignore it cause feelings" -_-

and wtf is "they might wrong but they also might be right"? what is this even? do you have a point here? So clear that you don't even know what you're talking about and have not done any of this research yourself xD got any examples for any of this? maybe a real point to make?

so ya, stop spouting pseudo intellectual stuff that have nothing to do with the argument and stop going "oh ignore society, morals, laws cause feelings matter" or w.e bs you are going on about.

But surely it will enlarge your views a bit and stop having your head inside your own ass

Love how you say I'm the one with my head up my own ass when you write out stuff like this and act like you have in regards to this argument... the amount of logical fallacies, bad faith and intellectual dishonesty from you

 

[spidersonbikes]

@estrombico
> what only matters for you is the age


Yes.

Anyways I agree with voidox here so I probably won't be responding anymore.

 

[estrombico]

@voidox As I said I won't read more of your replies, not because I don't like debating with people (even more if they've a different point of view, that's why I started talking with both of you), but because you're not capable of understanding other points, neither when someone agrees with you. If I wanted that I'd argue with a wall.
And after all those wall of texts you've yet not realized I agree with you on that adults should not have relations with minors, but are so adamant about not letting exceptions you don't realize it and won't

@spidersonbikes oki, your only inhibition against that is age and law,

So, as I said. You both are a product of our current society and moral code, without our current values maybe you will be defending having relations with minors just because they're young and what matters to you most is age and nothing more.
Don't let the general opinion shape yours and think for yourselves, don't use the thinking of others to shape your way of arguing/present a point, if you can't do that you're just repeating something that maybe resembles partially what you think.