Nihonkoku Shoukan - Vol. 11 Ch. 52 - The Grade Atlastar

[Wolvenworks]

IIRC isn’t this Gra Varkas arc still ongoing in the novels? Like, it’s one of those very drawn out, DBZ-grade fights that just won’t fucking end-kinda war?

 

[aramil31]

You can say that again.

I can understand sheer arrogance since Japan did appear in area 1 that has mediveal to 19th century technology. But so far only Mu were actually smart enough to send delegates first to scout the situation.

You would assume that all these empires would first send scout parties to analyze the enemy, not march right into their deaths.

Normally yes, but if they did, we wouldn't have this manga that's specifically about Japan getting to dunk on technologically-inferior hostile nations.

The more realistic take of this "wormhole planet" is that with the presence of 20th-century powers, I don't see how the 19/18th-century empires could actually exist as standalone empires, given that they all seem to be within accessable range of each other. I think the more likely scenario is that they would end up as protectorates/subjects/dominions/etc. of the most advanced powers, as tying themselves with trade deals and other agreements to the folks with post-dreadnought battleships makes a lot more sense than them just getting to freely and belligerently exist within firing range of said battleships.

And when a new nation shows up, like you said, I would expect there to be recon carried out by all of the big dogs to see how to react. If it's an inferior nation, that's easy, they just have to work out who subjugates it. If it's a peer or superior in particular, the plan would have to shift to diplomacy, where they vie to get the new nation to side with their power bloc, while also attempting to gain the more advanced tech for themselves.

Would be a polical drama and intrigue manga instead of an action one, or at least feature a lot less warfare than what we've had. Kind of how the 1632 book series goes, once they get over the initial fun of dropping a modern American town into 17th-century Europe, the reality that it's just a single town sets in quick, and getting involved in the politics of the time becomes key. Series also caught the commonly overlooked part of these kinds of stories: libraries and books are the single most valuable resource and need to be more locked down than the fancy cars and automatic rifles.

 

[Amariithynar]

You can say that again.

I can understand sheer arrogance since Japan did appear in area 1 that has mediveal to 19th century technology. But so far only Mu were actually smart enough to send delegates first to scout the situation.

You would assume that all these empires would first send scout parties to analyze the enemy, not march right into their deaths.

Real life Nations became empires through sheer dominance of force, not analyzing the enemy first; they mobilize and crush. Hell, just look at the USA's military doctrine against enemy nations today; bombard with overwhelming firepower first, and then sort out the dead after. Hell, that's Japan's modus operandi basically here, too; they're operating as the Empire of Japan again, rather than the Nation of Japan. They've just learnt that there are bigger fish thanks to the US trouncing them in our world, so they know to not be arrogant.

 

[aramil31]

Real life Nations became empires through sheer dominance of force, not analyzing the enemy first; they mobilize and crush. Hell, just look at the USA's military doctrine against enemy nations today; bombard with overwhelming firepower first, and then sort out the dead after. Hell, that's Japan's modus operandi basically here, too; they're operating as the Empire of Japan again, rather than the Nation of Japan. They've just learnt that there are bigger fish thanks to the US trouncing them in our world, so they know to not be arrogant.

I think you've completely missed/ignored the cornerstone of military and political warfare that is reconnaissance and intelligence gathering.

If you don't know who, what, where, or when you're fighting on the battlefield or in the diplomat's office, how could you possibly expect to succeed?

Like, this very manga shows multiple times what happens when no effort is made to conduct any recon or analysis of Japan before engaging them in hostilities.

And when it comes to the U.S., our doctrine isn't "superior firepower" in the way you seem to be portraying it (some WH40k-esque idea of "we don't know where they are, so we bombed everywhere we aren't"). One of the biggest strengths of our military is the intelligence apparatus and reconnaissance forces. We put a lot of money and effort into having plentiful amounts of ground recon forces (e.g. Marine Force Recon) and strategic-level data-gathering assets (satellites, aircraft, drones, etc.), gathering as much info as possible on where the enemy is, how many there are, what they have, what they're doing, what their routines are, etc., all in service of the concept that by knowing all of this, we can therefore pick and choose our engagements to our greatest advantage. It's such an important part of our military and doctrine that it's also pretty much the single most useful thing we can supply to allied nations.

Which is consequently why our biggest failures often come about from a fundamental failure to gather or comprehend this information, because trying to brute-force blind military/political action is extremely likely to fail.

TL;DR: There are two types of people - artillerymen and targets. Carrying out recon is a hard requirement to find the latter.

 

[SpeedyAussie]

London has been isekaid

 

[IronMace1990]

IIRC isn’t this Gra Varkas arc still ongoing in the novels? Like, it’s one of those very drawn out, DBZ-grade fights that just won’t fucking end-kinda war?

Yes. Just a stalemate for now since both sides are exhausted

 

[Dagger]

An ASM would absolutely kill a WWII-era battleship. It's not a requirement for the ASM to hit and penetrate the main belt, there's plenty of spots with a lot less armor that can be precisely hit with guided munitions. You might not put a big hole in the side to sink it that way, but you can certainly toss a couple ASMs into the towers, or through the upper decks and recreate the fate of the U.S.S Arizona.

It's kind of the thing when naval combat entered the missile era, getting hit isn't a role of the dice where armor alone is sufficient anymore. The only real way to survive the ASM is to not get hit in the first place, so ship protection methods had to shift away from thick armor (because you simply can't armor everything important to the same degree, and missile could still beat it regardless) to instead focus on missile interception and trying to find and shoot at the other fleet before they find you first.

Reduction of armor on ships predates AShMs. Bombs, guided torps, and the move to destroyer hulls were the real reason. And an AShM with its 90 kg SAP-HE wouldn't do shit shit when battleships are designed to take salvos of 203 mm+ APHE shells. Also the all or nothing scheme is a thing, citadels are a thing. You can test an F-2A with ASM-1 or 2 against Yamato in War Thunder, she hardly cares. Meanwhile one modern torp and the flooding is permanent,

 

[Jlysno9]

Interwar and early ww2 british empire technology
1930-1940

Like a King George V Class

 

[humblenoob76]

their home world name is "yggd" very norse
this isnt atlantis right? theres another island in this isekai that's meant to be atlantis?
so we're looking at another nation from earth whom are now in the ~ww2 era of weaponry, and they use the metric system
this story is so disjointed and trash im only still reading to see how each era of tech fare against each other atp

 

[Kick_starter]

Reduction of armor on ships predates AShMs. Bombs, guided torps, and the move to destroyer hulls were the real reason. And an AShM with its 90 kg SAP-HE wouldn't do shit shit when battleships are designed to take salvos of 203 mm+ APHE shells. Also the all or nothing scheme is a thing, citadels are a thing. You can test an F-2A with ASM-1 or 2 against Yamato in War Thunder, she hardly cares. Meanwhile one modern torp and the flooding is permanent,

Warthunder is probably one of the worst games you can use to simulate an engagement between a Yamato and a modern ASM.

 

[Amariithynar]

I think you've completely missed/ignored the cornerstone of military and political warfare that is reconnaissance and intelligence gathering.

If you don't know who, what, where, or when you're fighting on the battlefield or in the diplomat's office, how could you possibly expect to succeed?

Like, this very manga shows multiple times what happens when no effort is made to conduct any recon or analysis of Japan before engaging them in hostilities.

And when it comes to the U.S., our doctrine isn't "superior firepower" in the way you seem to be portraying it (some WH40k-esque idea of "we don't know where they are, so we bombed everywhere we aren't"). One of the biggest strengths of our military is the intelligence apparatus and reconnaissance forces. We put a lot of money and effort into having plentiful amounts of ground recon forces (e.g. Marine Force Recon) and strategic-level data-gathering assets (satellites, aircraft, drones, etc.), gathering as much info as possible on where the enemy is, how many there are, what they have, what they're doing, what their routines are, etc., all in service of the concept that by knowing all of this, we can therefore pick and choose our engagements to our greatest advantage. It's such an important part of our military and doctrine that it's also pretty much the single most useful thing we can supply to allied nations.

Which is consequently why our biggest failures often come about from a fundamental failure to gather or comprehend this information, because trying to brute-force blind military/political action is extremely likely to fail.

TL;DR: There are two types of people - artillerymen and targets. Carrying out recon is a hard requirement to find the latter.

Not at all- I'm pointing out that those are relatively modern military concepts when it's to the degree you're speaking of, and that old empires didn't really do that sort of thing. They came in with force and subdued locals through sheer might, and recon was pretty much limited to just outriders of the main army, just so they didn't get ambushed and could meet the enemy on a decent field of battle. To them, diplomats are things they send to a kingdom somewhere to force them to obey them, not intercountry communications. I'm also not depicting this as a good thing for these empires to do with regards to Japan, merely explaining why they do it- because that's how ancient empires ruled.

The USA is a modern empire de facto, and the US doctrine isn't "we don't know where they are, so we bombed everywhere we aren't", it's "Bomb everything to hell and let God sort them out" (this is by no means an exhaustive list, but it's a constant thing). If they could actually deal with that mentality and rein it in, it'd be a hell of a lot better.

 

[Altair_Sama]

Yeah in terms of armor ww2 britain's tanks aren't that good before they made the Centurion. Its either heavily armored and slow, or lightly armored and fast, in terms of armaments its not looking good aswell

Even, most of British's tank shell doesn't gud either...

 

[FeudalGrass]

Not at all- I'm pointing out that those are relatively modern military concepts when it's to the degree you're speaking of, and that old empires didn't really do that sort of thing. They came in with force and subdued locals through sheer might, and recon was pretty much limited to just outriders of the main army, just so they didn't get ambushed and could meet the enemy on a decent field of battle. To them, diplomats are things they send to a kingdom somewhere to force them to obey them, not intercountry communications. I'm also not depicting this as a good thing for these empires to do with regards to Japan, merely explaining why they do it- because that's how ancient empires ruled.

The USA is a modern empire de facto, and the US doctrine isn't "we don't know where they are, so we bombed everywhere we aren't", it's "Bomb everything to hell and let God sort them out" (this is by no means an exhaustive list, but it's a constant thing). If they could actually deal with that mentality and rein it in, it'd be a hell of a lot better.

ancient people knew about "know your enemies and know yourself", Sun Tzu described the uses of double agents and inside agents in "Art of War". espionage existed since ancient times. they used diplomats, merchants acting as spies to gather information.

To them, diplomats are things they send to a kingdom somewhere to force them to obey them, not intercountry communications

this seems like a huge overgeneralization. Diplomats had been used do many things, including to gather information. Zhang Qian during the Xiongnu conflict was dispatched as a diplomat and returned with information to aid in future conquest of Central Asia.

the Mongols had an extensive intelligence network that aided them in their conquest.

They came in with force and subdued locals through sheer might, and recon was pretty much limited to just outriders of the main army

against peer enemies that wouldn't work. the British conquered India by understanding and playing the various factioons against each others, not just mobilizing and crush.

 

[aramil31]

Reduction of armor on ships predates AShMs. Bombs, guided torps, and the move to destroyer hulls were the real reason. And an AShM with its 90 kg SAP-HE wouldn't do shit shit when battleships are designed to take salvos of 203 mm+ APHE shells. Also the all or nothing scheme is a thing, citadels are a thing. You can test an F-2A with ASM-1 or 2 against Yamato in War Thunder, she hardly cares. Meanwhile one modern torp and the flooding is permanent,

I wouldn't be turning to War Thunder as a basis for real-world performance. Also worth noting I said kill, not sink.

The point is that with guided missiles, you're able to get extremely accurate top attacks on pretty much whatever part of the ship you want. They can throw AShMs down the funnels, into the bridge, into the rudder, top attack the towers, destroy radar & rangefinders, etc. All things that can result in a "kill" of the ship without needing to actually sink it.

It's why I wouldn't look to War Thunder to figure out what actually results in a kill, because the game's changed that definition above and beyond to make sure people have a chance to actually play it. If they didn't, things like getting detracked in a tank would be an instant loss as the crew bails out and runs, since replacing the track isn't happening in the middle of the battlefield (and even if completely safe, would take longer than the match timer), and they're certainly not staying put to wait and see if the next hit enters the fighting compartment.

 

[aramil31]

ancient people knew about "know your enemies and know yourself", Sun Tzu described the uses of double agents and inside agents in "Art of War". espionage existed since ancient times. they used diplomats, merchants acting as spies to gather information.

this seems like a huge overgeneralization. Diplomats had been used do many things, including to gather information. Zhang Qian during the Xiongnu conflict was dispatched as a diplomat and returned with information to aid in future conquest of Central Asia.

the Mongols had an extensive intelligence network that aided them in their conquest.

against peer enemies that wouldn't work. the British conquered India by understanding and playing the various factioons against each others, not just mobilizing and crush.

I think the guy is just genuinely ignorant (in the lack of knowledge sense) about diplomatic and military history as a whole and is just vibeposting off of vague concepts and imaginings from popular media.

 

[OmegaDragon]

Ok so i was not high when them people with modern warfare didn't look Japanese. And especially when they call the locals as barbarian. I was like, umm rude?

 

[vergotear]

their home world name is "yggd" very norse
this isnt atlantis right? theres another island in this isekai that's meant to be atlantis?
so we're looking at another nation from earth whom are now in the ~ww2 era of weaponry, and they use the metric system
this story is so disjointed and trash im only still reading to see how each era of tech fare against each other atp

There's no Atlantis in this world. You're just like some dude from the last chapter discussion totally mixing up the Ravernal Empire (Sorcerous Empire) with Atlantis.
Revisit chapter 28 to refresh your memory.
The big reveal to the Japanese Diplomats is that the Mu hail from Earth when they see the globe map in the museum.
Mu and Atlantis are from our own Earth, they were rivals and Yamuto(Japan) was an Ally of the Mu. Mu was transferred from Earth 12,000 years ago. As noticed in the Mu's globe by the Japenese, Antarctica was on the Equator and Myrrus tells them THAT Antarctica was really Atlantis. So theorically after Mu was transferred Atlantis stayed behind and froze becoming what we now know as Antarctica. My theory is that the Earth inclination shifted after the whole continent of Mu was isekaied which left Atlantis in the south pole and froze. Now I felt like I was spouting some pseudo-archeology nonsense like Graham Hancock.

Also to refresh yourself on the story of the Sorcerous (Ravernal) Empire and their continent of Latistor that everyone in this world fears, re-read chapter 10.

And how can the the Gra Valka be another nation from Earth with ww2 weaponry when they refer themselves with names not from Earth, like their world Yggd, Gra Valka and their enemies the Kain Holy Empire? Not to mention they themselves having a Yamato Battleship instead of Japan? They might be an alternative world, but not Earth as we know it. You say disjointed story but isn't it you that can't piece together information and having everything disjointed in your brain?

 

[Amariithynar]

ancient people knew about "know your enemies and know yourself", Sun Tzu described the uses of double agents and inside agents in "Art of War". espionage existed since ancient times. they used diplomats, merchants acting as spies to gather information.

this seems like a huge overgeneralization. Diplomats had been used do many things, including to gather information. Zhang Qian during the Xiongnu conflict was dispatched as a diplomat and returned with information to aid in future conquest of Central Asia.

I'm not saying that espionage and diplomacy did not exist at all in ancient times, I'm saying that ancient empires expanded primarily through rapid military might, and cared little for any weaker powers diplomatically or otherwise in regards to military conquest; they maybe issued an ultimatum to surrender and if they didn't they just rolled over them. It was only when coming up against powers of similar strength to their own that they employed any real strategy or diplomacy when it came to military situations. Additionally, a simplistic account of, "They have walled cities and horses and grapes" is not really intelligence gathering.

As for Zhang Qian- he was sent to the Darouzhi to convince them to attack the Xiongnu from the west, and didn't even manage that. He was captured and detained for over a decade, ended up marrying and begetting a son from a Xiongnu woman, before finally 'escaping' and making his way to northern Bactria, finding the Darouzhi all that time later... and they refused to go to war. He left, was recaptured, escaped again, and returned to China, having failed in his mission. None of his future endeavours succeeded. The only thing he successfully did was inspire knowledge of potential trade for the future Silk Road by other people.

the Mongols had an extensive intelligence network that aided them in their conquest.

Genghis Khan was born in the 12th century, but it was his son Ogedei who ruled for only 20 years in the 13th century that created the Yam system off of the messenger systems of the Roman and Persian Empires, after the Mongol Empire had already been widely established. Otherwise, see above.

against peer enemies that wouldn't work. the British conquered India by understanding and playing the various factioons against each others, not just mobilizing and crush.

Agreed that against peers (other Empires) it wouldn't work; I thought it pretty clear initially that I was speaking about Empires against weaker nations, as with the Romans against Europe, or the Persians against West Asia and the Eastern Mediterranean; obviously given the reactions of the two of you, what was clear to me was not clear to others.

Lastly, the British didn't conquer India, since that implies Crown rule, might, and intent; the East India Company initially traded for it, piece by piece, and would have continued to do so if not for the extreme instability caused by Aurangzeb's policies in life that were very anti-non-Muslim, and the long war (28 years!) he waged during the last years of his life into his death followed by his sons fighting wars of succession to try and keep it all rather than divide it amongst themselves; they simply could not keep the empire that he had expanded together, especially since they never bothered to rescind his controversial laws like the non-Muslim tax, which bolstered the Company's holdings in India directly from defection. The Mughal Empire fairly imploded, aided by the Marathans performing their OWN rapid military expansion after their leader was released by one of the sons, and the Company moved in to restore stability when one of the later nominal rulers, who had been installed primarily as a figurehead, was defeated in interfactional warfare, and begged them for aid. It wasn't for a hundred years after that that the British Crown usurped the rule from the Company, because of the Indian Rebellion against their practices.

 

[IronMace1990]

There's no Atlantis in this world. You're just like some dude from the last chapter discussion totally mixing up the Ravernal Empire (Sorcerous Empire) with Atlantis.
Revisit chapter 28 to refresh your memory.
The big reveal to the Japanese Diplomats is that the Mu hail from Earth when they see the globe map in the museum.
Mu and Atlantis are from our own Earth, they were rivals and Yamuto(Japan) was an Ally of the Mu. Mu was transferred from Earth 12,000 years ago. As noticed in the Mu's globe by the Japenese, Antarctica was on the Equator and Myrrus tells them THAT Antarctica was really Atlantis. So theorically after Mu was transferred Atlantis stayed behind and froze becoming what we now know as Antarctica. My theory is that the Earth inclination shifted after the whole continent of Mu was isekaied which left Atlantis in the south pole and froze. Now I felt like I was spouting some pseudo-archeology nonsense like Graham Hancock.

Also to refresh yourself on the story of the Sorcerous (Ravernal) Empire and their continent of Latistor that everyone in this world fears, re-read chapter 10.

And how can the the Gra Valka be another nation from Earth with ww2 weaponry when they refer themselves with names not from Earth, like their world Yggd, Gra Valka and their enemies the Kain Holy Empire? Not to mention they themselves having a Yamato Battleship instead of Japan? They might be an alternative world, but not Earth as we know it. You say disjointed story but isn't it you that can't piece together information and having everything disjointed in your brain?

Well someone's not paying attention or try to understand what they've read for the past few years, I guess...

 

[DigitalSpace]

1974.

That will be in the next chapter when it starts firing its wave motion gun.