Ogami Tsumiki to Kinichijou - Vol. 1 Ch. 5 - Tsumiki and Senga

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Ever since chapter 3, I do not know how everything got out of hand with a lot readers of this manga. Going back to that chapter and how a lot of readers were saying that it wasnt obvious it was the Yutakas imagination, even though the page right before had the Yutakas thoughts and how it was progressing. Also on the bottom right we see Tsumikis expression being completely blank and right as you turn the page her face is blushing, meaning that isnt in reality. Not to mention while she is blushing she says the MCs name. Not to mention Senga has black hair and in that imagination the hair wasnt black, meaning Yutaka was imagining himself doing that to Tsumiki.


Now we fast forward to this chapter, and get a little more insight on Senga and how he feels, I saw a few commentors here saying that he is self serving and isnt showing signs of improvement or that he is shallow because of how he chooses to get blood without looking at it from his point of view. Without knowing what happens to him without getting blood. Going back to chapter 3, without knowing any prior conversations that Senga had with that girl, we see that blood is pretty vital for him and that he needed it right then. With prior knowledge we can see that he uses his vampire looks to get what he wants, though from chapter 5, it happens regardless anyways, but going back to chapter 3, we see the girl run off because she just wanted to talk and because she loves him, but she could of tried to look at things from his perspective and ask why he needed the blood at that moment instead of running off. We are told that blood is food, However, now we know from this chapter that he can eat regular things too, so we can probably guess that regular food and blood food are two different things for vampires. To come to the conclusion that he is shallow based on what was shown is something that I cannot agree with.

Of course, You can like or dislike whatever character you want, but I feel like if the dislike comes from your own misunderstanding of a character or scene, and then you create your own bias from that misunderstanding to justify disliking or hating the character more as the story progresses, you will miss out of obvious improvements from said characters or you might feel like the scenes that the character is in, whether nor not the scene is emotional or lighthearted, you will feel like the scene is cheap or unneeded, because of those misunderstandings then continue to blame the author without anything being their fault.

Which, going back and reading the thread from chapter 3. The ones saying the author wasn't able to convey the act of Yutakas imagination and creating exuses was just insane to me. Going from extreme to extreme, when everything they thinking wasn't even happening.
No matter where the problem lies (either bad execution or straight up baiting) there is no turning back from this kind of wide spread backlash now. Considering even the japanese side was disturbed by it. There is not a single community on the net that didn't discussed this in one way or another.

Just like zom100 and rent-a-cock, it will be brought up in conversation no matter howmuch time passes.
 
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No matter where the problem lies (either bad execution or straight up baiting) there is no turning back from this kind of wide spread backlash now. Considering even the japanese side was disturbed by it. There is not a single community on the net that didn't discussed this in one way or another.

Just like zom100 and rent-a-cock, it will be brought up in conversation no matter howmuch time passes.
what did zom100 do?
 
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what did zom100 do?
Author conjured up some doctor dude out of no where and made FMC go all blushing and comparing the MC to him in her mind (she practicely shit on MC while comparing saying the doc has better prospects in every single field). Doctor asked her to leave the group and join him which she uses to "shit test" the MC. While being a doctor and helping people was her dream, doctor admits straight up later on that he was also hoping for romance aside from her help.

It was a mess overall from a story telling and characterization perspective as well. And author literally got on twitter to apologize and immidiately made a damage control chapter right after. But as i've mentined, you can't have a discussion without all of this brought up anymore.
 
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Author conjured up some doctor dude out of no where and made FMC go all blushing and comparing the MC to him in her mind (she practicely shit on MC while comparing saying the doc has better prospects in every single field). Doctor asked her to leave the group and join him which she uses to "shit test" the MC. While being a doctor and helping people was her dream, doctor admits straight up later on that he was also hoping for romance aside from her help.

It was a mess overall from a story telling and characterization perspective as well. And author literally got on twitter to apologize and immidiately made a damage control chapter right after. But as i've mentined, you can't have a discussion without all of this brought up anymore.
Assuming that's actually the case, and not people perceiving things as more serious than they are and putting the author in a position where they had to apologise, then yeah that would be a weird story beat.
 
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Assuming that's actually the case, and not people perceiving things as more serious than they are and putting the author in a position where they had to apologise, then yeah that would be a weird story beat.
It takes way too many people to cause an author of a popular manga to go on a platform and apologize. This is not a 10 viewer count twitch nobody getting one-guyed in chat and caves in. When you have people criticizing you for the exact same thing on completely unrelated platforms all over, what you did might worth thinking over. Usually editors steps in before something like this even happens but apperently not always.
 
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No matter where the problem lies (either bad execution or straight up baiting) there is no turning back from this kind of wide spread backlash now. Considering even the japanese side was disturbed by it. There is not a single community on the net that didn't discussed this in one way or another.

Just like zom100 and rent-a-cock, it will be brought up in conversation no matter howmuch time passes.
Well, I disagree with the fact that it was bad execution or baiting, since I believe it was neither and should of been seen as being neither. No matter how many times I go back and read these chapters, getting to the conclusion that this was NTR bait is something I cannot wrap my head around. However, it is true that a lot of people saw it like that and created this awful situation. I think its fine to not like the direction a story is going in, its fine, but for it to go this far is insane, since the author really genuinely did nothing wrong.
 
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Anywhosie, to jump off a thing,
Forget everything else. Why is a vampire with an auto-charm spell running free in a teenager filled environment? And why nobody actually cares? Its practicely brainwashing and dude has the nerve to complain about being used? Is this a joke?
This is actually a pretty good illustration of why Genjin weren't immediately accepted and integrated. People would have reactions like this.

It's not brainwashing. He just seems really attractive so people crush on him. What they do with that crushing is up to them—it's certainly not what he wants them to do, not with that slap or the scheme to get him alone. It doesn't even induce crushing from everyone; it is not just literally Tsumiki, there are other girls who aren't crushing on him. It's just he's alienated them with his whole pseudo-playboy act.

He's allowed "to run free" in a teenager-filled environment because he is a teenager going to school with other teenagers. A school people went to knowing there would be Genjin students—possibly including vampires.

If that is too much, what would you have him do? Be segregated away from people his own age except other vampires? I don't think he would be better adjusted with that childhood than with this one, when he eventually entered the wider world. Or should he not enter the wider world ever?

I really, really love fiction that deals with monsterpeople segregation and prejudice. I know some people don't—it fails as analogy, they say, presenting racial differences as actually existing, the danger of the other as real and not imaginary. But that's just the thing, unless you really X-Men it up and outright say it is, it's not analogy. It's its own thing.

The idea that even in this case, where it comes with major tradeoffs and problems beyond the purely social, integrating and learning to live alongside other people is good and worth it is really nice. It's a better lesson because in real life sometimes the right thing has tradeoffs, sometimes people really are different, but deserve to be a part of things all the same. Also it gets told with cute monstergirls so like 10/10 hell yeah for that.
 
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It's not brainwashing. He just seems really attractive so people crush on him.
How it is not? He releases pheromone (scent of temptation) in to the air to effect othersides perception of him. And it is always on (according to him) How is it not brainwashing? It is literally forced chemical reaction. It is a classic vampire skill as well. He is even surprised that it didn't work on the FMC. Why do you think all his phone contacts (aka blood booty calls) are girls?
 
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Right, but. Part of experiencing sexual attraction is that, involuntarily, some people are attractive to you because of how they physically are. If he smells so good that most people who experience sexual attraction to men crush on him, that's a real effect, but it is not brainwashing, because their actions aren't controlled nor are their thoughts impacted to a degree beyond that another's physical presence could normally affect them. The special feature is the consistency of the effect, not the degree of it in any individual case.

It is mind-affecting, yes, clearly more people crush on him than would without the pheromone business, but it's not mind control and it's not personality-erasing and it's not implanting a post-hypnotic suggestion; and those are the things "brainwashing" can mean.
 
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Right, but. Part of experiencing sexual attraction is that, involuntarily, some people are attractive to you because of how they physically are. If he smells so good that most people who experience sexual attraction to men crush on him, that's a real effect, but it is not brainwashing, because their actions aren't controlled nor are their thoughts impacted to a degree beyond that another's physical presence could normally affect them. The special feature is the consistency of the effect, not the degree of it in any individual case.

It is mind-affecting, yes, clearly more people crush on him than would without the pheromone business, but it's not mind control and it's not personality-erasing and it's not implanting a post-hypnotic suggestion; and those are the things "brainwashing" can mean.
I will go with simpler terms since for some reason we are jumping around definitions at this point. Its semantics.

He has an automatic love potion dispenser built in his body. He is directly fucking with the targets brain chemical disposition to his favor. No matter what you wanna call it, it is done without consent. There is no downplaying this. It is no different from a date rape drug. He just doesn't fuck them but drink their blood. This is like vampire 101
 
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It is no different from a date rape drug. He just doesn't fuck them but drink their blood. This is like vampire 101
A date rape drug interferes with your ability to resist someone sexually assaulting you. It makes you drowsy or fall unconscious or easily suggestible. It also often makes it difficult to remember what happened during. Sorry, "Love potions are date rape drugs" annoys me because it distorts what those things actually are, and how they're used. This is really, really not that.

I am appealing to 'semantics' here because you are using words inappropriately to exaggerrate the degree of the effect. The effect is, quite simply, that people crush on him super often and easily.

If you're not willing to let a crush who needs blood bite you, you won't give Senga any blood. The blood-getting is not the problem. Having shallow relationships with people just to use them is a problem, but like, that is so clearly the arc Senga will go on in the story. Real teenagers use each other and what should be done is teaching them to be better, not forcing the manipulative ones to be home-schooled and expecting they'll be well-adjusted adults after, or removing them from society entirely on a one-strike policy.

So the big problem with his nature that he can't help is people get crushes on him they otherwise wouldn't. And it can be quite uncomfortable to have a crush you don't want! I've had them! But like. I don't think this is such a massive problem that vampire children must always be segregated from all other children. I got past the uncomfortable crushes basically unscathed.

And if it was that big of a problem, then all those many, many manga with popular kids beloved by the majority of their school should be held to the same standard and have their idol-types banished where their impossibly good looks or whatever can't warp the minds of their fellow kids.
 
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A date rape drug interferes with your ability to resist someone sexually assaulting you. It makes you drowsy or fall unconscious or easily suggestible. It also often makes it difficult to remember what happened during. Sorry, "Love potions are date rape drugs" annoys me because it distorts what those things actually are, and how they're used. This is really, really not that.

I am appealing to 'semantics' here because you are using words inappropriately to exaggerrate the degree of the effect. The effect is, quite simply, that people crush on him super often and easily.

If you're not willing to let a crush who needs blood bite you, you won't give Senga any blood. The blood-getting is not the problem. Having shallow relationships with people just to use them is a problem, but like, that is so clearly the arc Senga will go on in the story. Real teenagers use each other and what should be done is teaching them to be better, not forcing the manipulative ones to be home-schooled and expecting they'll be well-adjusted adults after, or removing them from society entirely on a one-strike policy.

So the big problem with his nature that he can't help is people get crushes on him they otherwise wouldn't. And it can be quite uncomfortable to have a crush you don't want! I've had them! But like. I don't think this is such a massive problem that vampire children must always be segregated from all other children. I got past the uncomfortable crushes basically unscathed.

And if it was that big of a problem, then all those many, many manga with popular kids beloved by the majority of their school should be held to the same standard and have their idol-types banished where their impossibly good looks or whatever can't warp the minds of their fellow kids.
I can see that there is no end to this so no need to go any further. You are refusing to admit that what he is actively and willingly doing is outright wrong and should be handled accordingly.

His vampiric power allows him to automaticly seduce girls and he is using it to his advantage to drink their blood. It is as simple as that. And if you are just brushing it off with a simple "highschool crushes amiright? teehee" i don't know what to tell you so its better to stop now.

Also;
Sorry, "Love potions are date rape drugs" annoys me because it distorts what those things actually are, and how they're used. This is really, really not that.
They are. They both take consent and agency away from you in a forceful manner.
 
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I'm sorry if I came off obtuse or rude and I appreciate the back-and-forth! I don't mean to drag you back in when you stepped out but I want to wrqp up my thoughts on this because I didn't really explicitly say what I wanted to say. So feel free to ignore this (as if you needed me to say that).

I guess I would say he isn't using it to seduce girls, they're crushing on him whether he wants it or not! He doesn't have a choice in it doing that. He then asks to bite them and if they say yes, he bites them? It's not the vampire power that's the problem. It's not like he makes them suggestible.

Like the skeevy thing is where he pressures people for their number, like he tried with Tsumiki, or grabbed her tie in chapter three; though it seems he is just used to people wanting him to act that way. But the means to avoid that isn't "Don't let any vampire who automatically dispenses attractive pheromones be around other kids", it's making Senga realize he is being shitty to people (and not to mention helping to ensure his own isolation) and needs to fucking stop, and relearn how to behave appropriately aroundvother people. The problem isn't vampires, the problem is Senga. But part of growing up is learning to be better. And a large part of why Senga has these problems is that there's not proper support for how to handle this sort of alienation or how to navigate norms in this way. How to handle vampire problems in this new context of not being hidden predators is a problem that needs solved and then those solutions taught. I cut him a fair amount of slack because the dude is a dumbass kid, but also obviously suffering from being different and not prepared for it. But you're right, the way I was talking came off as minimizing the way he is shitty to people, in trying to say the pheromones weren't really the problem.

Blaming it on the thing he can't help instead of the thing he can was how you framed your objection in the very first place and I think that says something about the theme of the manga. This shit is the teething troubles of culture clash and integration and I appreciate that it accurately portrays his as something where not everyone who is hurt by that clash, as Senga was, is an innocent and blameless angel. Dude's a manipulative dick and it's sympathetic to see how he's sorta stuck in that role even if being in that role is also on him. I was—in retrospect clumsily—trying to get at that.

Anyways I like this manga a lot. I do hope we get a wide cast with a number of perspectives on these kinds of issues. And I don't just mean Genjin-specific ones, Yutaka is a human from a totally human background but his deal involves Social Pressures ad shit out the wazoo.
 
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Vampire-kun is just a vampire-version of Tamaki Suou. He's just a pretty boy who's effectively begging for a few bucks for a sandwich and all the guys are annoyed by him with his shameless flirting, and yet somehow, Rafalga is convinced he is luring the girls to f**k them without consent. Completely wild. Are you alright in the head? JFC. And your attempts to gaslight me afterwards. Fuck you. And fuck the horse you rode in on.
 
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They are. They both take consent and agency away from you in a forceful manner.

Oh, I missed this part. Yes, love potions are bad. But saying love potions are date rape drugs makes it sound like date rape drugs do what love potions do. But they don't. They don't make you suddenly infatuated with a specific person or anyone around. They fuck with your head but they do it in characteristically different ways and I think treating "date rape drug" so broadly really launders the idea of what kinds of practical effects they have in real life. It makes them feel... cleaner? And I think doesn't help with awareness about them, but people should be aware of date rape drugs and how they work in real life, for safety reasons. I'm not saying love potions aren't date rape drugs as in they aren't bad, or are less bad, they're just a different bad thing.

And like, if someone is spiking someone's drink with a love potion or otherwise slipping it to them to make them be suddenly infatuated, that is enough like date rape that it's a fair comparison, even though the effects to enable the rape are different. But I think just passively having an aura where people crush on you easily is too far removed from date rape to really be a sensible comparison, since it's a different delivery method, it's involuntary, it's a different effect, and rape doesn't happen. And yes biting someone without their consent absolutely could be sexual assault and certainly would be regular assault, and that's also bad, but even putting aside our argument about whether the thing here counts as enough of an impact to meaningfully remove agency and invalidate the apparent giving of consent... I don't think calling it date rape is instructive, it feels like hyperbole to make what he does sound worse and in so doing diminishes how bad date rape seems.

Vampire-kun is just a vampire-version of Tamaki Suou. He's just a pretty boy who's effectively begging for a few bucks for a sandwich and all the guys are annoyed by him with his shameless flirting, and yet somehow, Rafalga is convinced he is luring the girls to f**k them without consent. Completely wild. Are you alright in the head? JFC

Rafalga did pretty explicitly say it was to bite them instead of fuck them, so that's not really a fair characterization, like, at all.
 
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This entire page look like second amendment discussion to me. It's not one to one exact copies but it has the same vibe. (I don't have any opinion on this matter)

The blood is still there and no matter how importance Senga will end up in this story (reduced role or become part of main cast) the predators of both side are now ready to jump in everytime he has the screen time.

This can be seen as good thing because it generates some buzz around this series but this kind of buzz usually bring in the very hard to deal with kind of reader and I know some type of people who are so aversion to drama that they try to avoid thing that currently has [heated] discussion.

I just hope author can navigate through this rocky water safely. and avoid the legendary axe

:haa:
 
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Vampire-kun is just a vampire-version of Tamaki Suou. He's just a pretty boy who's effectively begging for a few bucks for a sandwich and all the guys are annoyed by him with his shameless flirting, and yet somehow, Rafalga is convinced he is luring the girls to f**k them without consent. Completely wild. Are you alright in the head? JFC
Never once did i say he is trying to fuck them. I know reading comprehension is a rare accurance around here but god damn.
 
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I mean, there is another series where the cuck wannabe actualy becomes a good wingmen so….
 

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