Onna Chara de Isekai Teni shite Cheatppoi kedo Zako Chara na no de Medatazu Heiwa na Shomin wo Mezashimasu! - Ch. 1 - Susie meets people

Dex-chan lover
Joined
Apr 4, 2019
Messages
90
It depends what you mean by genuine wish. There's so much wiggling room for GB in between the male-gazey and self-aware trans stuff. There's a point at which strict boxes aren't very helpful, and the issue is more about bad actors and dishonorable pervs. Testing as 100% stereotypical cis or 100% straight-leaning or 100% homesexual-leaning isn't the norm, but unless it's an argument for empathy and civil rights I think it's often rude to type someone as bi or trans outside loose guidelines. I'm sick of heated hatefests about who deserves to be called lesbian and what era we should take the definition from. ...But with how hormones affect sexuality for some, it would be realistic for more genderswap characters to become bi.:dogkek:
Honestly the whole "genuine" vs "ecchi" conversation reminds me far too much of the HSST-vs-AGP transfem ""distinction"". Sure there's authors for whom it's purely transformation fantasy, but even then. I know Contrapoints, a fully-transitioned trans woman, got her start in messing with gender in a feminisation kink context. And a lot of women find themselves sexier when they feel pretty and feminine, cis or trans.

No, strict boxes aren't always helpful. I personally dislike that anyone who says "Hey, I might not be cis" is automatically assumed to be trans. But. Like. "I wish I was born a woman. But I'm not a trans woman" is equivalent to "Yeah I ate a banana and my whole face went red, everyone knows bananas are spicy. I'm not allergic to bananas tho." Or, to bring it back to bisexuality "yeah I've been attracted to guys before, but I also like girls, so I can't be gay."

A lot of people just aren't deeply attached to the gender they live.

The gender ambivalence you mentioned is, I think, a kind of non-binary (specifically some flavor of agender). If you look at the effort some cis folks will go to, just to affirm their sex presentation. Like effort with makeup, hair, lingerie, plastic surgery, hair transplants, Viagra, leg lengthening surgeries... Cis people get gender affirming care all the time. So they must have strong opinions on gender, and how they expect their body to look. A lot of people really care about their gender, including cis folks. But then there's also people to whom gender is incidental or accidental. In my metaphor, this would be someone who hasn't even considered if what he feels for his male friends is romantic or not. Because he has a girlfriend, other attractions don't matter.

But all this is a bit more complicated than how I'd start the conversation around the question of gender identity in a forum discussing a manga where the protagonist is wearing barely more than bikini armor on the cover and gets drawn naked, 'trying the new equipment' on page 4.

PS: Hormones impact your libido, not your orientation. If you messed around with my hormones I'd still be ace. But that's a wholly different conversation.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Messages
514
Look I have nothing but love for my trans sisters but ffs can someone tell these manga-ka that their self insert stuff is screaming for help.

Somebody needs to have a frank discussion.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Feb 23, 2018
Messages
434
Honestly the whole "genuine" vs "ecchi" conversation reminds me far too much of the HSST-vs-AGP transfem ""distinction"". Sure there's authors for whom it's purely transformation fantasy, but even then. I know Contrapoints, a fully-transitioned trans woman, got her start in messing with gender in a feminisation kink context. And a lot of women find themselves sexier when they feel pretty and feminine, cis or trans.
Fair criticism. I definitely had poor word choice there. Contrapoints is iconic, perversion is complex, and it doesn't need to be perfect. (I'm continuing this lewd manga after all...)
No, strict boxes aren't always helpful. I personally dislike that anyone who says "Hey, I might not be cis" is automatically assumed to be trans. But. Like. "I wish I was born a woman. But I'm not a trans woman" is equivalent to "Yeah I ate a banana and my whole face went red, everyone knows bananas are spicy. I'm not allergic to bananas tho." Or, to bring it back to bisexuality "yeah I've been attracted to guys before, but I also like girls, so I can't be gay."
I see where you're coming from. We're on a different page about gender in everyday language. I find it more useful to reference how people act and what they think they feel, meaning a little bit of gender self-deception is included. Performativity theory of gender. This can draw lines based on what a character emotes, or a person feels, usually aligned with their claim, less believable in the genderbender genre.
The gender ambivalence you mentioned is, I think, a kind of non-binary (specifically some flavor of agender). If you look at the effort some cis folks will go to, just to affirm their sex presentation.
Totally. Almost no one would gravitate to any one time and place's definition of The Genders, and in abstract would reject part of them. Some trans people have put a lot of effort into fitting into both binary genders without concommitant dysphoria about the performance. You listed some gendered priorities that have changed over time and place, which reminded me that cis people committed to gender can deeply overestimate how natural it is, and in a different environment would act very differently.
But then there's also people to whom gender is incidental or accidental. In my metaphor, this would be someone who hasn't even considered if what he feels for his male friends is romantic or not. Because he has a girlfriend, other attractions don't matter.
Compulsory heterosexuality problems. smh. Likewise a comp-gender thing makes for so much GB comedy.
But all this is a bit more complicated than how I'd start the conversation around the question of gender identity in a forum discussing a manga where the protagonist is wearing barely more than bikini armor on the cover and gets drawn naked, 'trying the new equipment' on page 4.
:nyoron:
PS: Hormones impact your libido, not your orientation. If you messed around with my hormones I'd still be ace. But that's a wholly different conversation.
On hormones and orientation, even Contrapoints weighed in on her preferences shifting a bit. It can seem invalidating and a threat to describe sexuality as theoretically alterable brain functions. Most and usually all HRT preference change is opening up inhibitions and changing libido. However. Some people on HRT swear there must be chemical switches that greatly shifted their preferences, usually in a het direction analogous to what affects median birth-sex development. I'll believe their claims, for their cases only, for sharp changes. I've never heard an ace-demi-allosexual shift described that way.

So transmigrators partly or fully swapping out their brain matter or INT would be more likely to be pulled along multiple spectrums, with lots of hormonal and some neural reshuffling.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Jun 2, 2018
Messages
11,315
Wait what uuuh so much for that context huh? But i hear GL so i’ll stick for the schlick.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
756
I dont really understand why the genderswap. Why not just let a girl reincarnate and not have a weird plot point that probably wont be used?
For me it always feels as if he artist doesnt accept same sex relations but its okay now because he was once a man.
more often than not, trans fantasies. these kind of series are for people who wanted to be women.
 
Group Leader
Joined
Nov 12, 2018
Messages
775
bro did what any of us would do if we swapped body... :meguusmug:
also, GL tag ftw ! :win:
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
902
Well at least they didn't beat around the bush like she did... hehe. And got right past the usual isekai shenanigans and awkwardness of the gender bending. It's kinda refreshing honestly that they literally admitted to just going right at it when they realized the were their favorite girl character instead of being a blushing maiden about it.
 
Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2023
Messages
6
I dont really understand why the genderswap. Why not just let a girl reincarnate and not have a weird plot point that probably wont be used?
For me it always feels as if he artist doesnt accept same sex relations but its okay now because he was once a man.
🥚 Nit all of them but it’s gotta be a factor
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Aug 12, 2018
Messages
1,633
I hate OP power stuff but honestly for a GL tag and female protag in general I'll do it, art's pretty solid too.
 
Supporter
Joined
Sep 18, 2020
Messages
506
The gender ambivalence you mentioned is, I think, a kind of non-binary (specifically some flavor of agender). If you look at the effort some cis folks will go to, just to affirm their sex presentation. Like effort with makeup, hair, lingerie, plastic surgery, hair transplants, Viagra, leg lengthening surgeries... Cis people get gender affirming care all the time. So they must have strong opinions on gender, and how they expect their body to look. A lot of people really care about their gender, including cis folks. But then there's also people to whom gender is incidental or accidental. In my metaphor, this would be someone who hasn't even considered if what he feels for his male friends is romantic or not. Because he has a girlfriend, other attractions don't matter.
Cutting out the rest of this excellent "conversation around the question of gender identity in a forum discussing a manga where the protagonist is wearing barely more than bikini armor on the cover and gets drawn naked, 'trying the new equipment' on page 4" . . . .

This is something I've noticed when reading GB stories, and it's always seemed really weird to me - the way so many of the genderbent characters are like "no, I'm a man!" and get so bent out of shape about oh my god, their body changed. While at the same time basically everywhere else, so many cis characters are doing all sorts of things to change their bodies and the way they present and so forth, because "I'm a man/woman" . . . It kind of feels like most people aren't living in their actual body, rather, they're living in their idea of what their body should be?

Which, as I said, just seems really weird to me, because I don't actually think about my body much at all - it's just there, the only time the exact details of its shape even come to mind is when I'm interacting with things, and particularly when I'm hitting limits, I can't reach something, lift something, whatever. It's never like "I should be able to lift this because I'm a man!", if there's any should about it it's more like "I'm a grown-ass adult male, I'm five foot eight, mostly hale, I should be able to lift this 20kg bag of feed, dammit", which isn't about gender identity, it's just about physical reality. Obviously this isn't something I can be sure about, but I feel like if I got isekaied into a fantasy world as a stereotypical silver-haired loli it'd be the raw physical changes that felt weird - any sense of wrongness about that new body would be because its physical capabilities and behaviour wouldn't match my expectations, not because of any mismatch between my mental image of myself, let alone any mental image of an "idea man".

Now, I already know I'm weird so my experience being different to the norm is to be expected, but is it really the case that most people are so disconnected from their actual physical body that their mental image of themselves effectively overrides (or tries to override) the physical reality? That's a genuine question, by the way - the idea makes so little sense to me that I can't trust my own judgement about it.

That said, the social aspects would be another matter - that would probably be far harder to deal with, and far more intrusive. After all, adjusting to a new body would mostly be about learning where the new limitations and boundaries are, adjusting to a new social context would require learning a whole new set of social rules - it took me long enough to learn this lot, having to start again is frankly a lot more scary than, I don't know, periods and stuff? And dealing with people's expectations and the constraints they imposed.

Now that I think of it, that actually makes me think that a lot of the social stuff is being conflated with the physical change - that most people are inhabiting their social identity rather than their raw physical form. So the line between acceptable physical changes and changes that would cause them to suffer serious dysphoria is where they cause problems maintaining their social identity . . .

Or something . . . This is page 7 of a forum discussion about a manga which probably doesn't actually care about most of this stuff beyond what kind of gags can be extracted from it, so writing essays at each other is fun but probably not very productive . . .
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Apr 4, 2019
Messages
90
Or something . . . This is page 7 of a forum discussion about a manga which probably doesn't actually care about most of this stuff beyond what kind of gags can be extracted from it, so writing essays at each other is fun but probably not very productive . . .
I like having conversations like this. Even if the author didn't intend for us to read into it. I also think it is productive, if only as a way for us each to further our understanding of how this stuff works in reality (and what it implies when a character has a wildly different reaction to a situation).

Now, I already know I'm weird so my experience being different to the norm is to be expected, but is it really the case that most people are so disconnected from their actual physical body that their mental image of themselves effectively overrides (or tries to override) the physical reality? That's a genuine question, by the way - the idea makes so little sense to me that I can't trust my own judgement about it.

Your brain has an internal map of the shape of your body. It knows you have arms and legs, knows roughly how far each joint is bent, which bit of nerve sits where on the surface of your skin. It can use all that to interpret the signals from those nerves into a 3D map of "the shape of the stuff which is touching you". It's why if I press my finger on my desk "here", it feels different from if I press my finger on my desk "there". Your map is informed by the shape of your body, but it's not a perfect process. People who've lost a limb can get phantom limb syndrome because the body may have changed, but the map hasn't.

Many trans people report that this internal map of themselves does not match their native physical reality. There's apparently been a few studies looking into this. One from 2008 (warning for outdated language) and Another from 2018. The dissonance between the map of how you expect your body to be and how it is can be very distressing. This is physical dysphoria. I think that for people who's map matches their body, or for whom the gendered aspects don't weigh very heavily, it can be difficult to understand. But I expect it would be like trying to walk, but your legs are too short. Every step you take becomes a missed stair. And because your brain is hard wired to think you're taller than you are, you'll never adjust to your new height.

And all that isn't even touching on beauty standards for "the ideal man" or "the ideal woman". Nor does it touch on the social impact of physical difference. I know there are people who don't feel much physical dysphoria, or don't feel physical dysphoria for certain traits. But because these traits are heavily gendered, having them means the person is perceived as a gender they are not. And that gives them social dysphoria. And it doesn't touch on how social dysphoria plays into GB either.

...I should go re-read Ranma 1/2
 
Supporter
Joined
Sep 18, 2020
Messages
506
I like having conversations like this. Even if the author didn't intend for us to read into it. I also think it is productive, if only as a way for us each to further our understanding of how this stuff works in reality (and what it implies when a character has a wildly different reaction to a situation).
Yeah, and the kind of discussion that comes up in these contexts can be quite different to discussions about things like gender experience and dysphoria in more "serious" contexts, which can be interesting. Particularly since it tends to bring in people who aren't already reasonably well informed, or even particularly interested - genderbent gag manga capture a much broader audience than serious stories that try to realistically depict gender identity issues . . .
Your brain has an internal map of the shape of your body. It knows you have arms and legs, knows roughly how far each joint is bent, which bit of nerve sits where on the surface of your skin. It can use all that to interpret the signals from those nerves into a 3D map of "the shape of the stuff which is touching you". It's why if I press my finger on my desk "here", it feels different from if I press my finger on my desk "there". Your map is informed by the shape of your body, but it's not a perfect process. People who've lost a limb can get phantom limb syndrome because the body may have changed, but the map hasn't.

Many trans people report that this internal map of themselves does not match their native physical reality. There's apparently been a few studies looking into this. One from 2008 (warning for outdated language) and Another from 2018. The dissonance between the map of how you expect your body to be and how it is can be very distressing. This is physical dysphoria. I think that for people who's map matches their body, or for whom the gendered aspects don't weigh very heavily, it can be difficult to understand. But I expect it would be like trying to walk, but your legs are too short. Every step you take becomes a missed stair. And because your brain is hard wired to think you're taller than you are, you'll never adjust to your new height.
That all makes a lot of sense, and matches my understanding from other sources fairly well, though as someone athletically inclined my feeling is that the "map" you have of your body is actually all about relative dimensions and proportions, rather than absolute dimensions. So in terms of your internal sense of how your body moves, what matters most is the proportions - limb lengths relative to torso length, hip and shoulder widths relative to limb lengths, and so forth. Simply shrinking down from six feet to five feet tall while retaining your bodily proportions would probably not be too much of an issue - cube/square scaling issues would make themselves known once you started operating at higher strength requirements, and that would definitely be noticeable and throw you out of whack, but in terms of just basic moving around and stuff things wouldn't feel weird internally. I also suspect changes like the difference between male and female hip and shoulder width to limb length ratios would be small enough that it wouldn't actually be noticeable most of the time - we're not exactly precision machines, after all. Walking might feel noticeably different, but the difference would be subtle - after all, we're talking about proportional changes that probably aren't much different to flat shoes versus medium height heels.

The world around would seem weirdly big, though, particularly if you weren't constantly distracted by noticeable differences in your bodily proportions - trouble going down stairs would definitely be a thing, and I expect you'd regularly stumble with things like stepping over obstacles or side-stepping to avoid a collision, simply because of reduced absolute limb length. This is actually something I think would be nice to see explored more often in GB stories, particularly since it's something which would be a much more broadly relatable sense of physical dysphoria than the more subtle and challenging topic of gender dysphoria . . .

One other thing: I really doubt that you'd never adjust, particularly given you'd be experiencing this new shape/size/etc 24/7. Brains are shockingly plastic, even when dealing with major physical changes - if that wasn't the case there's no way that someone could learn to walk with prosthetic limbs, let alone run races with them. How long it took to be able to function normally in most circumstances would be extremely variable, but I'd be very surprised if it took more than a few weeks to get maybe 80% of the way there, and perhaps a year or two to be fully adjusted to the change. Some things would probaly only be noticeable for the first few minutes even - changed hip width to leg length proportions might feel subtly odd, but if that didn't go away in a few minutes I'd be very surprised (though there'd still be the occasional stumble).

Pulling numbers out of my arse, of course - I imagine there's research out there about adjustment periods for amputees and the like, but right now I don't feel like chasing the papers up . . . .

And all that isn't even touching on beauty standards for "the ideal man" or "the ideal woman". Nor does it touch on the social impact of physical difference. I know there are people who don't feel much physical dysphoria, or don't feel physical dysphoria for certain traits. But because these traits are heavily gendered, having them means the person is perceived as a gender they are not. And that gives them social dysphoria. And it doesn't touch on how social dysphoria plays into GB either.
Yeah, this is honestly the part of all this that I find most difficult to try and reason through - even though I don't really experience physical dysphoria I have a decent mental model of how brain and body interact to give a sense of physical self, so I can make a decent stab at reasoning about it; my experience of social dysphoria is far removed from anything gender related, though. I'm a white, cis, het male who barely even notices the water he's swimming in a lot of the time . . . but I'm also autistic, and that means I've had to consciously learn the social stuff that comes automatically to most people. So . . . yeah, definitely out of my wheelhouse . . .

...I should go re-read Ranma 1/2
Hah - I expect it'd be a bit uncomfortable re-reading it now, but it's been . . . probably twenty years for me? I have to admit that I'm curious . . .
 
Group Leader
Joined
Jun 16, 2024
Messages
188
Wiling to give it a chance if it subverts expectations. So far looks like it'll be a cringe fan service fest.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top