Ore ni Trauma wo Ataeta Joshi-tachi ga Chirachira Mitekuru kedo, Zannen desu ga Teokure desu - Vol. 6 Ch. 26.1 - 「The Worst Outcome」

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That's - no, morally self defense needs to be proportional as well. You can't go around killing people because they caused some amount of harm to you, in no world is that acceptable. If he reasonably thought he was in danger of dying, lethal means would be potentially justifiable, but as we've seen, he endured it until the teachers came and was capable of stopping them at any point. At no point was his life in actual danger, and at no point would he be justified in shooting these kids up. What the hell is this argument even.
define "amount of harm". You do know that in many places it is legal to react with lethal force if someone invades your home, right?
btw, you argument is basically "he was able to survive, therefore he was not in danger" so a victim has to wait to get literally killed before they can react with lethal force? 😂 A kid was literally stomping his head last chapter. You talk about him "being capable of stopping them at any point" are we sure about that? can the MC see the future? we only saw a couple attacking him, what if he was ganged up by more? what if they reacted quicker? this was a gamble and the MC won
And then you have to agree that, if this wasn't the mc, if it was just a random kid, not expecting to get attacked like this, they would be in their rights to use lethal force, right?
 
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She doesn't deserve violence back because she is a girl and he's a guy, and there is a inherent differential in terms of physical strength. No matter how justified or rational your logic is in saying she also should get hit by Kokonoe, that simply doesn't pass for what society considers to be a well-adjusted person. It would become an action that is antisocial, something that goes against the cohesion of the in-group/community you belong to and would not spell good state of affairs. Women are more vulnerable than men, and they will receive this privilege for eternity, or as long as that part of sexual dimorphism exists.

While I too believe in an eye-for-eye sentiment as for as consequentialism goes, I draw the line at antisocial behavior, because the kind of person I want to become is a prosocial man. I understand that there is a contradiction/hypocrisy there, but it's a hypocrisy that society demands of me if I want to establish myself as a well-adjusted man. I don't needlessly moralize any more than that, so as long as my actions are conducive to prosocial outcomes, and avoid antisocial outcomes.

You can fall on this sword if you want, it's just that you will likely pay the cost of being a social outcast who will hit women (no matter how justified you are, which doesn't matter since there exists no conception of a perceived, sufficient justification in society for which a man can lay his hands on a woman). It's not necessarily a prescriptive statement as much as it is a descriptive statement, in a way. By logic and assuming equality/no discrimination or double standards on the basis of gender, you would be right, and yet, it is an action that will demonstrably have horrible social consequences as a man. 99% of women will get the ick and be disgusted at such a man and will outright eliminate him as a romantic prospect or even just a friendship/social connection prospect. If you're willing to pay that price, go ahead. I'm not judging or moralizing any more than that one way or the other, but I wonder if such an outlook is conducive to being able to live a fulfilling life as a man in society.

Indulging in ethics/morality is great, until it severely clashes with practicality/utility in real life. Most people understandably end up choosing the latter, because humans are social creatures, and in many ways, being in a bad standing with society in general (due to what would be perceived as antisocial, violent tendencies against a vulnerable demographic of people society has deemed as requiring of special protection/privileges), would spell death or a fate as similarly horrid as a man.
Your paragraph here, is tbh, completely sexist and in my personal opinion rather rigid. The MC shouldn't hit her because hitting people is bad. PERIOD. Not because she's a girl and he's a boy. That kind of view is rather narrow. So if the girl is as strong or stronger, is it suddenly fair game?

Your reasoning is not at all applicable to the story or the situation this would fit in. Hitting a woman does not automatically make you anti social or a social outcast due to something called "context" and if you are willingly want to ignore the context of each situation and immidietly deemed that "guy hit girl, guy is bad" is at best ignorant and at worst can cause real damage.

And the examples you provide doesn't at one bit applicable to this story at all. The MC does NOT care about searching for any romantic partners all he wanted is to seek the justice that was unfairly taken away from him. Who cares if the girls got an ick from it, he probably doesn't even want to interact with them. And in the real world. Again, CONTEXT. If the person you're interested is the type to already make up a story in their mind about something that they have no clue about and develop an "ick" then good, cause that ain't the person you would want to be with anyway regardless of gender.

The Question here is not whether he was in the right. He was. He did however took it further than needed, both with the boys and the girl. And the girl isn't some innocent bystander. So according to you, she should just be able to get of w a slap on the wrist. Don't they deserve to receive the consequences for their actions? She see a kid getting gang up and her reaction is "Yeah beat him up some more". Is that kind of behavior not in itself anti social?

In the end, you're entitled to your opinion. And all the more respect that you can turn the other cheeks. But thats YOUR opinion, your moral standards. And that doesn't apply to everyone, especially since it actively is sexist and hypocritical.
 
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From a legal point of view he was literally being lynched, being used to violence and wounds,being strong are not important, if he claims that being lynched made him enter a frenzy then no amount of whining is going to win the case.
I'm from Spain so I'm used to shitty self-defense laws but even a country as pro-criminal as mine couldn't condemn the kid.
I don't have a problem with what he did, I have a problem with claiming that the lynching justifies literally anything. I'm fairly sure any first world country would have a problem with him if he legitimately just drew a gun and started shooting everyone up. That's in no way self-defense anymore and no absurd justification would make it so.
 
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define "amount of harm". You do know that in many places it is legal to react with lethal force if someone invades your home, right?
btw, you argument is basically "he was able to survive, therefore he was not in danger" so a victim has to wait to get literally killed before they can react with lethal force? 😂 A kid was literally stomping his head last chapter. You talk about him "being capable of stopping them at any point" are we sure about that? can the MC see the future? we only saw a couple attacking him, what if he was ganged up by more? what if they reacted quicker? this was a gamble and the MC won
And then you have to agree that, if this wasn't the mc, if it was just a random kid, not expecting to get attacked like this, they would be in their rights to use lethal force, right?
That is in no way my argument. My argument was that someone needs to believe their life is in danger to resort to lethal methods, which you'll note is nothing like what you're saying here. And that, because MC here knew full well he could stop them considering how easily he did it the moment he achieved his goal of getting the teachers to witness it, he would have a hard time convincing anyone that he legitimately thought there was a threat to his life.

Beyond that, with other kids, it'd depend, again, on the kids' perception of the events, the actual threat being posed, and if there was a non-lethal way to get the assailants to stop. All of which would, I presume, make it unlikely that lethal force would be justified.
 
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I don't have a problem with what he did, I have a problem with claiming that the lynching justifies literally anything. I'm fairly sure any first world country would have a problem with him if he legitimately just drew a gun and started shooting everyone up. That's in no way self-defense anymore and no absurd justification would make it so.
The gun might be going too far but if he maimed another kid no sane judge would condemn the kid when he's being assaulted by multiple individuals, if it was just one or he initiated under provocation I could understand the punishment but he orchestrated the situation in his favor, he's free to do what he wants baring killing and raping.
 
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both of them where littreally stuned at the whole sight of what was happening that is a perfectly normal reaction to seeing something shocking like that. Calling them out for they actions before hand is alright but lets not pretend we can't see what's going on here.
"perfectly normal reaction" no the fuck it's not? As teachers, or rather as adults, you'd expect them to INSTINCTIVELY rush to save the poor kid no matter how 'Oh so """stunned""" they might be. They deserve to be called out for being a bottlejobs and failing both as teachers and human beings.

Also she snaps right out of it the moment a girl is about to be hit, suuuuuure. MC was at the risk of getting permanent and possibly fatal injuries from repeated hits all over his head and body and had to go full Karate Kid to save his own life. Their teaching licences need to be revoked for being too retarded and incompetent.
 
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This moment was hyped up for so long and holy FUCK did this moment deliver!
Hell, it was even more brutal then I could have imagined it to be. And it was even more satisfying with how brutal this was!

Imagine if we still had this Yukito that would have logically but violently retaliated if it ever came to that again before his aunt got involved.
No mercy against boys and girls! Too bad the teacher stopped him before he could hit the girl that kept telling the boys ''to beat him to a pulp!'' to show true equallity.

Thank you for the TL!
Now to wait patiently for the next chapter to see him verbally destroy the ''adults'' for trying to shove the blame on him for self defence.
 
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Now break that teacher's foot with a stomp. She deserves it. Break her glasses too. Just take them off her and step on them.
 
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a smart as he is, i wonder if he planned something in case if the teacher double down on the lie in the first place.
I would bet on it. The reason he is this strong and knows how to fight is because he knew things like this would happen to him at some point, so he made sure to be ready. It's safe to say he makes a plan for everything in every situation.
 
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because MC here knew full well he could stop them considering how easily he did it the moment he achieved his goal of getting the teachers to witness it
I mean... it is his words against yours. Sometimes it is actually pretty easy to get out of lethal danger, you just were not expecting it.
In your worldview, if a person survives, then they were never in danger, because look at how they dealt with it!

and if there was a non-lethal way to get the assailants to stop
There is ALWAYS a non-lethal way to get the assailants to stop, but if you are literally getting beaten, you can't possibly think clearly
 
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I still not feeling ok reading WN/LN ver yet ...

But based on this ...his current self pretending to be mentally damaged or he really damaged?? ..

Because b4 this flashback it's look like he really brain damaged ...but now it's look like he pretending to be one so everyone will move away from him
In fact, he got brainwashed
 
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Indulging in ethics/morality is great, until it severely clashes with practicality/utility in real life. Most people understandably end up choosing the latter, because humans are social creatures, and in many ways, being in a bad standing with society in general (due to what would be perceived as antisocial, violent tendencies against a vulnerable demographic of people society has deemed as requiring of special protection/privileges), would spell death or a fate as similarly horrid as a man.
If the society is filled with said vulnerable to call for violence towards others, i think it's not worth fitting into.

Just because you are more vulnerable for being a woman doesn't justify the act of inciting violence towards others.

That kind of mindset is what leads to out of control, spoiled, modern feminists running rampant.

Oh and one more thing, apparently
Man with criminal records are more attractive and popular in the USA so there's that.
 
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Not surprised, any women that felt regretful for what they've done to him becomes a damn whore for his forgiveness.
I friggin knew it, like 90% of women in the manga wants to get with the MC hahaha
Yeah, like with the end of Volume 1, thats pretty much how the LN been going for the female characters, is a rinse and repeat angst > join the harem, and since later mc personality change, bro is pretty much a womanizer on purpose
 
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Can someone give me a spoiler, so who put the teacher's stuff on MC's desk, was it just an accident or did someone try to trap MC?
 
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nah, fuck that. equal rights equal left. There is a differential in terms of physical strength between 1 guy and 3 guys, and she was cheering and egging on the 3 guys
Yes, she was cheering on other boys who were committing violence. The other boys committed violence themselves, instigating it all on their own and without any encouragement from the girl. The encouragement came in the middle of it. Surely, these two things can't be on the same level of moral outrage.
because society doesn't really believe in equal rights. If you don't want equal rights, then women can return to the kitchen and become baby-making machines. In my case, I do believe in equal rights, but we can't be which part we want to make equal and which one we don't
Again, this sounds good in theory, yet has no utility/practicality in reality. Women's status as the vulnerable gender will forever protect them from having to deal with all aspect of equality, even the ones they don't like. You will never convince the masses to all of a sudden make it okay for men to be physically violent with women. Unlike with progressive movements that served to combat racism, sexism, etc., this one would be seen as regressive, non-noble goal. It simply isn't realistic.
In general, but some men are obviously waaay more vulnerable than other men (and women) and nobody cares, so fuck that shit, ppl should not be violent or call for violence in general, we don't need this cuck shit of "well they are weaker so they deserve violence even less" NAH, equality my friend, nobody should get beaten


Good for you, but if I've learn something, it's that defending yourself is part of being social, because nobody wants to be friends or partners with a loser to get taken advantage of, unless they want to be fake friends and take advantage of that person
Again, Kokonoe has already displayed both sufficient physical formidability, as well as a willingness to disregard social norms when he beat the shit out of all the other boys. The girl has gotten the message, all it takes is one single glare and some threatening words from him to get the job of "self-defense" done, including making sure she would be dissuaded from inciting violence in the future, now that she's seen his physical ire directed towards her. Any more than that is excessive, and would simply serve as an outlet for satiating Kokonoe's anger. It has nothing to do with morality at that point at all, just a self-indulgent desire to see one's vengeance fulfillled.

At that point, you are no longer being prosocial because what you're doing isn't defending yourself (like retaliating against bullies to make sure they never get such bright ideas again, which would make the world a better place, hence being prosocial, but here, since it is no longer justified retaliation, it ceases to be prosocial). In fact, hitting the girl for no reason other than to satiate your own anger at this point, after your violence has achieved the purposes which can be justified, will simply be an antisocial action of needless, excessive violence. You become the person needlessly making the situation worse by introducing unjustified violence.
If you were a white person during the civil rights protests, you would be exactly the kind of person MLK was talking about in his Letter from Birmingham Jail, the white moderate, who MLK deemed to serve as a greater obstacle to the rights of black ppl than the overt racism fucks.
It's interesting how you compare me, a proponent of non-violence against women, to the kind of white moderate whose stances allowed for violence against black people to continue. One stands against violence (beyond the sufficient threatening I mentioned earlier, which was enough to dissuade further antagonism from the girl towards Kokonoe), while the other permits it. One was a righteous civil rights cause, while the other is your own satisfaction/schadenfreude of being able to inflict violence upon women, beyond what is necessary to eliminate the threat and dissuade further attacks. One will be recognized as a noble, progressive stance by broader society (rightfully so), while the other would be seen as excessive and regressive, which again, rightfully so.
Then this has no meaning, after all the MC is already a social outcast for not fault of his own, it would be better for him to make them scared


Yeah, and those girls were literally calling for him to get beaten into a pulp, at that point there was nothing else that could be done to salvage anything.
Nope, the mere fact that he stopped his attack against the girl, when the glasses sensei called out to him, is already much better than if he had gone through with it after all. The social perception of a man who gives into his anger enough to raise his hand against a woman, but doesn't actually go through with the hit and backs off, versus the social perception of a man who fails to control his anger and unleashes a punch with all his might onto a girl's face... are two ENTIRELY different things. The teachers now know that he was more in the right than his bullies, engaging in any more antisocial acts at that point, like hitting a girl, one of the biggest social taboos, would serve to undercut his justification for what he did and lower the newfound favorability/sympathy he's garnered among the teachers. There was still a lot left to salvage, in that Kokonoe could've made things even worse for himself, but thankfully he stopped.
Sometimes you need to be the change you want in the world. Not many decades ago, being gay was seen by most as something bad; now it is normalized in civilized society.
You say that we should be the change we want to see in the world, as if this is somehow good practical advice for how to operate in reality, whereas what you're really asking is for men to commit social suicide en masse. And apparently this is supposed to be for a cause that would advance society in a noble way? Seeing as you've compared it to other social movements like gay rights, the civil rights movements, etc? All for the right of... being allowed to hit women beyond what is necessary to intimidate them enough to decentivize any further incitement of violence? No one will agree that your goal/movement is noble, because it isn't.
This is one of the main reasons why bullied kids don't defend themselves btw, they think ppl will look at them as the problem and as aggressive, and they are right, what they don't get is that not fighting back is much worse
They're not the same though. A bullied kid retaliating against an incessant bully hell-bent on torturing him will be perceived rather differently than a man who is willing to hit a girl. One of them is a rather relatable source of frustration (a lot of people understand what it would be like to be pestered by a bully for no good reason), while the other is an outright social taboo that boys are taught to never indulge in from birth. A lot of people will actually side with the bullying victim, even if institutions like the school leadership might fault the victim for fighting back.

Besides, I already agreed that Kokonoe was justified in the way he dealt with the male bullies themselves. My problem is with him trying to hide the girl, ON TOP OF already having sufficiently intimidating and discouraging her from further violent escalation. She was crying her eyes out of fear, all but pissing herself lol, she definitely got the message and knows what she will be risking going forward if she ever goes against Kokonoe again. The difference between you and I is that you seem to basically have no limit on what you consider to be justified retaliation (I didn't invoke any self-defense laws, mind you, so we're not talking about legality here, just morality), something I would define as including the right to make sure that no further violent escalation against you will happen - which he already did by beating everyone up and scaring the girl shitless. Whereas I do place a limit in that I agree with violence used as retaliation against initial violence committed onto you, so as long as that violence serves two purposes: eliminating the immediate violent threat in front of you, as well as doing enough to ensure further violence will be discouraged against you. What Kokonoe did sufficiently fulfills both, but trying to hit the girl after that is no longer about ensuring his own safety, it is about vengeance and satisfying his thirst for revenge, which has no purpose in my framework of morality and hence deemed as excessive, unjustified violence, and hence, morally reprehensible.
 
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Your paragraph here, is tbh, completely sexist and in my personal opinion rather rigid. The MC shouldn't hit her because hitting people is bad. PERIOD. Not because she's a girl and he's a boy. That kind of view is rather narrow. So if the girl is as strong or stronger, is it suddenly fair game?
You're arguing from a perspective of "this is how society should be," but that utopia has yet to arrive and will likely never arrive.

I'm not sexist, society is. Is it a sexist belief that MC shouldn't hit her because she's a woman. Yes. Is that also the broader prescription that society teaches boys and considers to be noble and justified, even though it's a blatant double standard? Also yes. Has the conversation of "equal rights also means equal lefts, women can't pick and choose" done a good enough job of removing the taboo from the action of a man hitting a woman being seeing as antisocial and morally abhorrent? NO. Like I've said before, it's fun to dabble in ethics, but sometimes ethics/morality ends up being very incongruent with what is realistically possible in society.
Your reasoning is not at all applicable to the story or the situation this would fit in. Hitting a woman does not automatically make you anti social or a social outcast due to something called "context" and if you are willingly want to ignore the context of each situation and immidietly deemed that "guy hit girl, guy is bad" is at best ignorant and at worst can cause real damage.
Are you really telling me, that in a post MeToo Western world, that hitting a woman has no social consequences for a man, regarding his reputation? You talk about "context," as if it was an important thing the public at large takes into account when forming opinions on these situations, and yet if that was true, there wouldn't be such a huge public outcry against the notion that men are justified to hit women back if the latter hits the former first. Society will still largely prescribe the sentiment of "men shouldn't hit women back, even if they're hit first, rather they should try to de-escalate the situation." An overwhelming majority of women and a considerable majority of men still believe that men shouldn't lay their hands on a woman, ever. If you have any doubt, go and look up the number of cases where the woman was the physical aggressor against a man in public, yet no one comes to his aid, and yet the second he tries to justifiably defend himself, multiple men jump the guy for "hitting a woman."

This shit happens all the time and why men try their absolute best to move away from the violent women rather than try to square up and defend themselves outright, because they understand intuitively that society will likely stand by a woman who was hit by a man, regardless of context. Men simply don't make for sympathetic victims the way that women do and ignoring this reality is naive. Literally every man knows this. I want to ask if you're a man or a woman? There is no way you don't intuitively understand what I'm saying if you are indeed a man.
And the examples you provide doesn't at one bit applicable to this story at all. The MC does NOT care about searching for any romantic partners all he wanted is to seek the justice that was unfairly taken away from him. Who cares if the girls got an ick from it, he probably doesn't even want to interact with them.
I also talked about the prospect of losing social connections/friendships, the lack of which would serve to alienate and make a man a social outcast, not just romantic prospects.
And in the real world. Again, CONTEXT. If the person you're interested is the type to already make up a story in their mind about something that they have no clue about and develop an "ick" then good, cause that ain't the person you would want to be with anyway regardless of gender.
You severely underestimate the extent to which our cogntive biases, influenced by our own values, rule decision-making and opinion-forming processes of human beings. You say as if the person who's interested in making up a story in their mind based off of limited context/evidence is in any way rare, or even a minority, in society. Just think about how many people jump to conclusions about sexual assault/domestic abuse cases that are come into light online going off of the initial wave of limited context. They don't even wait for the court proceedings to begin, they outright socially execute the accused in the square of public opinion, which has now extended into the online sphere thanks to social media.

Also, practically every measure/findings of how our cognitive biases influence our thought processes goes to show how ridicuously biased human beings are - so much so that we should basically retire the colloquial use of the word "rational" as it applies to human beings. Human being are not rational. There is no single part of the brain that gives rise to the "rational" function in humans. All of our thought processes are heavily influenced by our values, cognitive biases, the heuristics we assign to the events we observe, and emotions. Given all of this, it is super naive to think you can easily find people who even acknowledge their own biases, let alone take the extra step to controlling them (the latter of which I don't really think is possible for human beings in general anyway, judging from the literature I've read on neuroscience).

You are able to make the correct guesses and have the right opinions about Kokonoe's situation because we literally see his POV and know that, as the MC, he is being thrust into an arc whereby he is unjustifiably bullied due to a wrong he did not commit. It is much, much more difficult to make such objective assessments when you're not a reader, but actively involved in the situation where all of a sudden, your shoes are stolen and dumped in the nearby pond even though you did nothing to physically bully Kokonoe on your own (even though others did bully him and all you did was be a bystander - which is bad, but not as bad as the bullies themselves).
The Question here is not whether he was in the right. He was. He did however took it further than needed, both with the boys and the girl. And the girl isn't some innocent bystander. So according to you, she should just be able to get of w a slap on the wrist. Don't they deserve to receive the consequences for their actions? She see a kid getting gang up and her reaction is "Yeah beat him up some more". Is that kind of behavior not in itself anti social?
I actually think he didn't take it further than it was necessary against the boys who were being violent towards him at all. He was outmatched and had to quickly subdue each one before they ended up landing any potentially fatal or life-altering strikes (last chapter showed one kid curb-stomping his head into the ground, which considering his age, could spell either death or being put into a vegetative state in the hospital), so he fought them off individually, as well as inflicting enough pain/fear to ensure that the bullies do not take another retaliatory action of violence against him in the future (which to me is an underrated part of self-defense, since victims who often stand up to their bullies simply suffer more violence in the future in unjustified retaliation).

I did however think he took it too far with the girl. All he needed to do was glare at her and use some threatening words like he did to make her cry out of fear and all but piss her pants. She got the message, she knows what she wil be risking if she tries to incite more violence against Kokonoe in the future. He took it too far by actually trying to hit her, because at that point, the immediate threat of violence was dealt with, as well as making sure he took actions to discourage any future events of violence against him. At that point, hitting her would only serve as a way for him to satisfy his desire for revenge and quelling his anger, neither of which are morally justifiable reasons for using violence, since once again, the threat against him is gone.

And yes, the girl's action of cheering on violence is indeed anti-social. Does that mean that she deserves to have Kokonoe knock the daylights out of her face with his full might like he was going to? What punishment do you think is justified for her? I simply think that a talking-to, getting in trouble with the school leadership, as well as potential suspension from school for cheering on unjustifed violence (which is both immoral and illegal) is either a good starting point or is enough by itself. Tell me what you think she deserves. I want to know where you're coming from in terms of your moral framework of justified versus unjustified violence.
In the end, you're entitled to your opinion. And all the more respect that you can turn the other cheeks. But thats YOUR opinion, your moral standards. And that doesn't apply to everyone, especially since it actively is sexist and hypocritical.
Yes, I am entitled to my opinion, as are you. But this isn't just my opinion, it is the LITERAL status-quo of society. Only one of our opinions actually maps onto reality, and it isn't yours. Yes, society is sexist and this does indeed apply to everyone (insofar as the exceptions can be considered a negligible minority, powerless to affect status-quo). The utopia you want of absolute gender equality/fairness will never arrive, because it will involve taking away patriarchal privileges/protections women have always enjoyed, and since women make for sympathetic victims due to their comparative fragility/vulnerability, unlike men, you will NEVER convince society as a whole that making it similarly okay for a man to hit a woman (like it is for a woman to hit a man) is a noble cause worthy of societal change/pursuit. It simply won't happen. It isn't based in reality, but an ideal world that will never arrive.
 
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