Orenchi ni Kita Onna Kishi to Inakagurashi Surukotoninatta Ken - Vol. 4 Ch. 27 - Young hero

[WillLi]

@bladestorm91 I know any sensible person that is aware a person can use magic that spawns fire from no where would at least take steps to ensure said person -doesn't- get pissed at them. And in the isolation arc the government did exactly the opposite of that. During those chapters I gave a break down of why the things the government did were unrealistic because of the level of inhumanity involved in their actions. People constantly say "These are the rules" but that isn't actually the case, they if anything actually broke some rules. And beyond even that, it just doesn't make sense for them to take a course of action that risk the person with literal fire power turning against them.

If you think that's how it would play out in real life, then you are either entirely unaware of the fact that there are laws dictating how people should be treated humanely, or you are just oblivious to human nature. Any actual medical official or scientist would've advised that this plan needs to have more humanity. And the -Japanese- government would've consented to that because they are very well aware of the dangers of mental instability, kinda plagues their culture with suicide attempts, and the last thing they would want is for their guinea pig to commit suicide. There is literally no benefit to how they played out the isolation arc.

 

[cor3zone]

@criver I don't like your tone, because you write like you have all the right answers and everyone else is wrong. I don't care what you think about me personally.

I honestly don't understand why people feel the need to meatshield for such garbage writing. You don't need a genius to figure out how bad it is, and it checks out with the author's "writing experience".

People like to defend what they enjoy, especially when other people start ridiculing it. The way you phrased that makes it seem like you think everyone who enjoys this, and doesn't agree that it's "bad" "garbage writing", is an idiot. Since it doesn't take a "genius", a 'normal' person would know, so they must be dumb, right?
The thing about fiction, which this is, and art, which this contains, is that there is no objectively bad or good. You can only objectively state things like this chapter is presented in English, or the art doesn't use color. Since people enjoy different things, this is a subjective matter.

@WillLi They have to assume she isn't human though. She's from another world. First contact: assume the worst, hope for the best. Also, which rules did they break? Are you an authority on the laws in this fictional Japan?

 

[HOOfan_1]

@mahtan
In the very first chapters she said "our army was defeated, I managed to escape from enemy hands"

In Chapter 2 she was shown to be pursued by Orcs.

She most certainly was not in "friendly territory"

 

[WillLi]

@cor3zone If they are to assume the worst, then what they did is still foolish because they didn't think about what if she's strong enough to just blow up the whole building and go on a rampage. Also if you bring in "Fictional Japan" then you're submitting that this government is different from real japan, and as such no comparisons to modern government saying "Well they do it nowadays" can be used to justify anything. So we rate them purely objectively, in which case the decisions that made were objectively stupid when taking care of her simply on the basis of that they were aware she had powers, and their methods took unnecessary risk towards her turning against them or committing suicide. These were unnecessary because the things they didn't do would not have hindered their research or examining her. So this makes them a non-sensible government, they made objectively stupid decisions with now benefit. Could you say "Well they behaved like humans"? Yes, but being "human like" doesn't mean they're not stupid or senseless. So I return to my initial statement "I have given up on this author writing sensible governments." It is clear that this author has his governments make decisions for drama purposes and for nothing more really.

 

[bladestorm91]

@WillLi
As @cor3zone has said, this is assuming the government was treating her as a human instead of an alien, and considering she had otherworldly powers that not any one of us would possess, it's highly likely they treated her as the latter. They needed to quarantine her no matter what because she could have been a walking and unknowing biological weapon, the isolation is an unfortunate consequence of that.

Additionally, they would never kill her to dissect her because 1. there's no point doing that with our current medical knowledge (besides being the only sample in existence), and 2. we don't know what kind of backing she has and if they will retaliate in case of her death.

Due to the reasons above, what happened in the hospital makes sense and really that's all that matters. Maybe that's not how it would actually unfold in real life, but none of us really know if it would go like in this manga or otherwise.

 

[criver]

@mahtan You can go back to the hospital arc and find my comments if you are actually interested about what I had to say about it.
Then regarding your first point - no, you cannot argue that you can throw any rationality out of the window just because you added fantasy elements. This is not just my opinion either. If you don't trust me, then at least trust the professionals in that field - go through some writing master classes materials.

As for the latter half of your post - nobody insulted me personally, he was simply acting out of line - and breaking the rules at the same time. It's very unfortunate that a mod would have to clean up after him because he cannot keep a civil discussion.

@cor3zone There are objectively bad writing practices, especially when the basics are concerned. Now, you can argue how plot holes, inconsistencies, and inconsequential actions may be subjectively bad, but the literature on the subject would disagree.

 

[WillLi]

@bladestorm91 the quarantine was not the problem. We quarantine humans all the time. The problem comes in that their methodology while she was in the hospital. They cut her off from any real sort of communication, and did not take any effort to ensure her mental health even when she was showing clear signs of depression. They only made changes when she 'attacked' one of the nurses. (Which it wasn't really an attack but the big wigs probably saw it as that) If Chris had a slightly worse temperament at that point they could've snapped and went on a rampage. Would could've resulted in either Chris being shot dead or many people getting burned down with fire magic. This is why what happened in the hospital doesn't make sense. Because they knew about her powers, but we see zero effort to actually keep her on their good side. And she's an 'alien' but we see zero effort to keep her in a state where she wont want to commit suicide. The problem is that they put zero consideration into her mental health. That's why it was senseless and inhumane. You're too busy looking at the big things to notice the problem subtitles.

 

[cor3zone]

@WillLi She is an alien being, with unknown powers. They had no way of knowing if she could brainwash them or something. They were actually quite lenient. If I met an comparably super-powered being, with unknown intentions, I would run. Since a country can't, and deporting her would be really bad for international relations, I would lock her in a lead-lined concrete bunker in an undisclosed location.

The first rule of science, i.e. observing an unknown, is to isolate. They had to have a strict, sterile environment in order to be absolutely sure, or as close as possible, that their readings were correct. They couldn't know what pathogens she might carry, or how they would react to outside stimuli. Control the environment, introduce changes, and observe.

@criver Maybe I've missed it, but I don't think you've pointed at anything directly being "bad writing practices". So far I've only seen you state your personal opinion that this is bad. Also, please provide sources on what makes them objectively bad.

 

[WillLi]

@cor3zone read my above post. But to add to that, not knowing the full extent of her powers is more reason why you would try to come off as friendly to her instead of over testing her and being cold. And again "Human like" does not exclude it from being stupid or senseless. The response you just said you'd have to her about locking her away, is a senseless response considering she's been living peacefully with someone for weeks. Yes it's possible she's evil, but it's equally possible she's not. But if you lock her up whether's she's evil or not you're now on her bad side. And again, quarantine isn't the problem, you like bladestorm seem to only be capable of looking at the big things. Either that or you're binary in your thinking. It is possible for only some of what they did to be senseless and not all of it.

 

[bladestorm91]

@WillLi
They probably could have done better with all the isolation thing by giving her a PC or any communication device, but having more human communication with some that has magic (mind magic might be a thing) is a risk. They don't know if all her current human friends are a result of mind magic after all. But it's very probable that the author didn't even considered this, it's likely he didn't even think that far, but it's a possible explanation for the very strict quarantine.

 

[WillLi]

@bladestorm91 and you read what I just pointed up to cro3 cause he already brought that up. But now you're thinking more clearly. It is very likely the author didn't think of this. But this is why I said he doesn't write "sensible" governments. Becuase based on what I'm seeing, he's not thinking out everything, he's thinking about the drama. Which he can do if he wants, that's his choice. But you can't call a horse a tiger. If you like it okay that's what you like. But it's not 'sensible' regardless of if people like it. Just like the hospital, whether you think it'd have happened that way or not is upto your knowledge and preference, but no matter what, it wasn't 'humane'.

 

[cor3zone]

@WillLi You're looking at this from the wrong viewpoint. Looking from a human perspective, yes, the hospital treatment was fucking horrible. The country has no right doing that though. They have to consider the good of the population. Assuming fiction matches reality, that's over 100 million humans. They had to learn the impact Chris and her powers might have, regardless of the cost. I would guess they had the army on standby to take her down if needed. If they had nukes, those too.

 

[WillLi]

@cor3zone You are aware, that they had people in the room with her anyway right? If just one of them was instructed in caring for her mental health, literally the 'inhumane' nature of it would be gone, and literally none of their plans or security would've changed. No one in the population would've been endangered. I don't get why switching one of the people or adding one more would've made any difference when they already sent people in to talk to her and deal with her in the first place.

You guys are acting like there is some massive change that needs to be done that puts people at risk, but there isn't. It's a small change that makes a huge difference for Chris. Like I said, it doesn't effect any of their experiments or security.

 

[criver]

@cor3zone Do I have to quote the definition for plot hole, or will you look it up yourself? Since you seem to be asking for sources about basic definitions at this point. While trying to argue that having this is not an objective plot flaw.
That feels pretty disingenious. I refuse to believe that you actually believe that, and I think that you are simply arguing just to disagree. In case you actually believe that, I have no comment.

As for you question regarding where those plot flaws show up, I would first want to be sure that we have some common ground. If we agree on the common ground that plot holes, inconsistencies, inconsequential actions, formulaic characters, non realistic interactions, plot armor, and other recognized story flaws are indeed factually recognised as such (because you seem to disagree with that in your last reply), then sure I can dissect whatever chapter you want me to and show you all the obvious flaws in it.

 

[cor3zone]

@WillLi It does affect it, actually. They needed a clinical environment, which includes mental state. She wasn't a 'human', she was an object to be observed. Why should they care about her mental health, when she's an illegal invader that poses a threat to the entire population? 1 alien+casualties vs. 100 mil or more. Besides, if we're willing to accept this fictional world mirrors our own, things like this happen all the time. Countries changing spies, those spies being captured and possibly tortured etc.. Countries don't care about individuals, the stakes are too high.

@criver Now we're talking. I agree that most of those, all but formulaic characters which are not inherently bad, are objectively bad writing. Non realistic interactions could be debated, since not all fiction strives to be realistic, but I'm willing to concede. Now please provide examples that cannot be refuted. Any chapter will do, but please provide context from earlier chapters as well if needed. Been a while since I read the entire series.

 

[WillLi]

@cor3zone so, despite me telling you to, you didn't read my post to Blade about the same topic. So since I already answered your questions I'm just not even going to respond to you anymore. You obviously just want to be right and aren't actually interested in the debate. Hopefully you'll never be in a situation where you have to make any real decisions, because you can't tell the difference between "sensible' and "Well it happens in real life"

 

[bladestorm91]

@WillLi
Just because the author was writing it for the drama and didn't think through everything doesn't mean what happened is not 'sensible', because what's 'sensible' varies greatly between people. A government does not act consistently the same in real life, they make mistakes (A LOT) and a story is not there to showcase a portrayal of a perfect government (by how they would always act in real life). The hospital arc can be criticized, but not for how the government was written, because their actions were believable.

 

[WillLi]

@bladestorm91 You're using 'sensible' in the wrong context. I did not says "the government is not sensibly written" I said "sensible government" The first is refereeing to whether to not it's well written or logically written or things like that. The second is refereeing to whether or not the government depicted is acting with good sense. You can debate whether or not the writing is sensible, but that is not what I am addressing, I am saying that the government's this author writes do not act with logic and good sense. Instead they do what is needed to make drama. You can say they are realistic and that is up for debate, but with teh sense of 'sensible' I am using, even a mistake can still be 'senseless' because we are talking about the actual actions and behavior, not the intentions or the author or the story.

 

[cor3zone]

@WillLi Right, this post?

@bladestorm91 the quarantine was not the problem. We quarantine humans all the time. The problem comes in that their methodology while she was in the hospital. They cut her off from any real sort of communication, and did not take any effort to ensure her mental health even when she was showing clear signs of depression. They only made changes when she 'attacked' one of the nurses. (Which it wasn't really an attack but the big wigs probably saw it as that) If Chris had a slightly worse temperament at that point they could've snapped and went on a rampage. Would could've resulted in either Chris being shot dead or many people getting burned down with fire magic. This is why what happened in the hospital doesn't make sense. Because they knew about her powers, but we see zero effort to actually keep her on their good side. And she's an 'alien' but we see zero effort to keep her in a state where she wont want to commit suicide. The problem is that they put zero consideration into her mental health. That's why it was senseless and inhumane. You're too busy looking at the big things to notice the problem subtitles.

Chris is not a citizen of Earth, so ergo she has no rights. They could treat her however they liked. While her treatment could turn her against them, they deemed that an acceptable risk against a possible epidemic of unknown cause. You're the one too busy looking at things your way. The decision on her treatment wasn't made by humans, it was made by a government. A government, by necessity, has to be inhumane in some matters.

 

[WillLi]

@cor3zone Wow you can actually read that and come to the conclusion that her being human has anything to do with what I said? I'm amazed at your ability to perform mental gymnastics. Let me spell it out for you. Chris is potentially dangerous as you said, with powers they don't understand. Now, they -already- send people in to talk with her, so they have given up on defense against hypnotism, because she's coming in contact with people. What benefit is there to -not- trying to keep her mental health good? You can just swap out one of the nurses for one also trained in emotional care. And problem solved.

You are presented with two task, to explain how the situation I just presented in this post is more dangerous than what they did, and the second is to explain how pissing of the person that could potentially have superhuman powers that could result in your nation's destruction is not risking your nation's people. You keep saying that it's a danger, but you have yet to show how. So answer those, and maybe you might be worth debating with.