Ori no Naka - Ch. 8 - Rejection and Acceptance

[ijontichy]

This was a great chapter.

 

[EmilioFonsi]

yeah, sure. Because a university campus is a generally acceptable place to approach a woman you don't know and ask her out.
But still, you're using your social skill and sense of awareness about standards of propriety to know and discern that that situation is an acceptable place to ask an unfamiliar female out , whereas an empty street, or a university campus at night , or on public transport, or a dangerous city etc are all less acceptable.
So it isn't just that simple as asking people out unless you have a background, prerequisite level of social skill and awareness of what's proper.

All those provisos you add, which is far from an exhaustive list of circumstances that make asking a female out unacceptable or less acceptable, just show the the same as I said above.
Also I totally disagree about therapy being a great place for that. That's basically trusting a stranger you pay to have your best interests at heart. You're almost always going to be better off asking a trusted family member or friend and only if you're in the desperate situation of having no trusted family or friends should you pay a therapist to tell you the proper way too ask females out.

I think the point of going to therapy is to get professional help from someone who really knows what they’re doing and not get judged for it. Sure, you can ask family and friends for the same advice, but depending on the type of person they are, they can judge you for having those problems to begin with and even start some rumors about it (rumors are basically worst case scenario though). Even if they try not to judge, some people are simply bad at giving advice, or do more harm than good. They can make it seem like your feeling are simply invalid, or make your problems not a big deal. Just those two things which from what i’ve experienced are probably the most harmful as well, since they can make you feel somewhat alienated or abnormal. With therapy you can talk to a professional who doesn’t solve your problems, but helps you realize them.

I heard people talk that therapy doesn’t work, that therapists only ask useless questions, don’t give clear solutions, but that’s kind of the point. No one will solve your issues but yourself (well, in most cases at least). The thing is that they can ask questions that make you reflect upon yourself and change the way you think about a given situation. Approaching your issues with a different perspective can make an issue much easier to solve or more bearable to deal with.

 

[ipmanvsthemask]

The thing is that they can ask questions that make you reflect upon yourself and change the way you think about a given situation.

Reflection without an actionable plan is useless. If the subject doesn't work out his problem with steady progress, he's just gonna relapse.

 

[story645]

Obv I'm not him but it's clear that what he's saying is that "treat women as people" and "don't pressure them into dating you" is not enough to actually help anything if they are not 'attractive'.

Eh, like yes I agree that doing the bare minimum (and this is the bar is in hell minimim) isn't gonna magically win you all the girls - it's a necessary but not sufficient condition. But thats mostly b/c there really isn't an algorithm to getting all the girls (not even being hot and rich) b/c 'attracive' is different for everyone and the only way you learn what someone finds attractive is to get to know 'em, which by definition means treating them like a person.

Just go to back to this manga for an instant, the FMC is interested in the MMC b/f she catches him sniffing her pads b/c he's not creepy towards her - doesn't leer at her or hit on her. And like the promising they have chemistry parts of their date are when they're bonding about the anime they like. That's the main reason this manga even has "can it go freak who matches freak" tension despite the major (would not recommend) violation that is stealing her pads.

Reflection without an actionable plan is useless. If the subject doesn't work out his problem with steady progress, he's just gonna relapse.

Sure but a therapist also helps you develop an actionable plan and can often act as an accountability buddy.

 

[dsfargeg]

The advice I gave was basically "treat women as people", "don't pressure them into dating you", and "maybe get to know them a bit before asking them out".

Like really, you're gonna argue with me that "don't treat her like a person", "pressure her into dating you", and "shoot your shot w/ a total stranger" is a winning strategy for a dude who is already struggling w/ getting a girl and is paranoid that asking one out will get him labeled a creep?

I know I used a lot of words but you need to put on your big girl pants and actually read them. When you throw a tantrum and repeat yourself because you're scared of realizing you're part of the problem, everyone around you sees you acting like a disgusting selfish idiot. Most of them are too polite to say it to your face but everybody's thinking it.

 

[story645]

I know I used a lot of words but you need to put on your big girl pants and actually read them.

The whole bunch of assumptions about me + a bunch of humble bragging on how you get all the girls w/ a side of deep resentment/insecurity that they only like you for your looks?

ETA: And you know, not as a person? Which is my main (only) points. ETA2: the actual scientific research on this is that folks of both genders tend towards assortative mating, which is basically you get out what you put in/seek folks who you feel match you on the things you value.

 

[GG334]

Man this is getting really mean spirited in here. Everyone in this thread needs to be circumcised.

 

[ScrotalLingerie]

The advice to "treat women as people" and "don't pressure them into dating you". Maybe for MMC.
No chance for the walking garbage at chapter 2 page 3: .

 

[dsfargeg]

The whole bunch of assumptions about me + a bunch of humble bragging on how you get all the girls w/ a side of deep resentment/insecurity that they only like you for your looks?

ETA: And you know, not as a person? Which is my main (only) points. ETA2: the actual scientific research on this is that folks of both genders tend towards assortative mating, which is basically you get out what you put in/seek folks who you feel match you on the things you value.

Everyone else can read and understand what I'm saying just fine. Maybe you should spend less time focusing on me and more time on what I'm talking about? Or is that too hard for you?

 

[shion_arita]

The advice to "treat women as people" and "don't pressure them into dating you". Maybe for MMC.

Admittedly this isn't really his problem. His fantasies are pretty aggressive and there's... you know, the whole pad thing... and he is afraid of women in a way that sort of is based on real problems but isn't really well reasoned and thought-through. However, when he actually interacts with her he's treating her pretty nicely, and is actually managing the interactions pretty well.

 

[story645]

However, when he actually interacts with her he's treating her pretty nicely, and is actually managing the interactions pretty well.

It takes a bit for him to get out of his own head, but yep. But it's also pretty clear that that's what's been holding him back from interacting w/ other girls.

more time on what I'm talking about?

Look I legit don't understand what it is I'm misunderstanding and don't want to make a bunch of assumptions so could you please clarify so that I know what page to start from?

 

[blulaz]

Oh nooo haha I hope she doesn't force me against my will I would hate it very much noooo...

 

[EonNite]

She's setting this man up. By this point, if his guilt is really that bad, he should cut his losses and distance himself before he flies to close to the Sun. Thing is, she KNOWS Gomi will say yes every time.

 

[ninkek]

She's setting this man up. By this point, if his guilt is really that bad, he should cut his losses and distance himself before he flies to close to the Sun. Thing is, she KNOWS Gomi will say yes every time.

Part of me believes that he'll love to be set up if it means being with a cute girl one way or the other, but it's hard to tell for sure if he'll honestly enjoy being trapped in her (hopefully metaphorical) cage until it actually does happen.

 

[dsfargeg]

Look I legit don't understand what it is I'm misunderstanding and don't want to make a bunch of assumptions so could you please clarify so that I know what page to start from?

I'll try to put it as simply as possible:
When women give dating advice they only ever give advice that describes they want to see attractive men do, like you did in this thread. This is because women are wired to see unattractive men as not meaningfully human and don't really store them in their memory. It's a massive mental blind spot they have. I do not believe you can see your own blind spot, so take me at my word on this.
The men that need dating advice are unattractive men and they need advice on how to become attractive. Your advice is useless for them because if they follow it women will lash out and attempt to harm them socially. It is terrible advice that will harm them if they follow it. You will likely think "no, a woman would never do that" because in your mind you are picturing an attractive man behaving that way rather than some total fuckin loser, and you are not aware you are even making that assumption.
I would like to give those men advice on how to be attractive but am unable to because I was born very attractive. I cannot teach them how to overcome their problems because I never faced those problems and have no experience overcoming them.

 

[story645]

The men that need dating advice are unattractive men and they need advice on how to become attractive.

Dude, unattractive guys get mates all the time, cause folks pair up via assortative mating - person_1 w/ trait X pairs with person_2 w/ trait Y b/c p1 values Y and p2 values X, where X and Y can be the same trait. For example, the stereotypical hot girl/rich guy pairing. And no, I'm not saying that guys have to be attractive or rich, just that they generally need to excel in a trait that is of value to the girl they are interested in.

You're harping on looks but like here's how I see the stories you told:

know a guy who knocked up a 300 lb hamplanet suffering from necrosis with bits of her body rotting off because he was that desperate. Was it a long-term relationship? Not at all, he never wanted to talk about it again.

Dude treated this woman as a disposable object for sex, was reckless enough to have a child w/ her, and never wanted to talk about (apparently) the mother of his child? You tell me, is he actually a great guy and this was a one off where he acts like a really lousy human being?

Seriously, I've literally pointed out my buddies to girls that came up to talk to me and mentioned they would be more interested in this kind of stuff than me and they asked "you mean behind the losers?" because they couldn't wrap their head around that those nerds existed and would want to talk to women.

Ok, those women are jerks. Have your buddies considered the women behind them? Specifically and precisely the ones who aren't gonna hit on you b/c looks aren't their highest priority?

Seriously and legitimately - bunch of times where guys were more interested in my friends than me and I just went and found someone else to talk to b/c (like many of the dudes on this thread have been saying) it's more about social skills than anything else.

So yeah, while you keep harping on attraction, I gotta ask if your friends are shooting themselves in the foot in who they choose to pursue. I've dated some dudes who weren't the most attractive - women aren't lying when they say the oddities grow on them - and if it fell apart it was a personality/values things like the dude victim blaming a child who accused his friend of molesting her.

 

[dsfargeg]

You're harping on looks but like here's how I see the stories you told:

Really just bouncing off that thick skull of yours instead of sinking in, huh? Let me repeat myself from upthread:

n.b., "attractive" is more than just physical appearance.

That aside, thank you for so beautifully demonstrating that massive mental blind spot I've been warning everyone about and thus demonstrating why dudes should not take any dating advice from women. "They generally need to excel in a trait that is of value" - Yes, that is a form of being attractive. This is the step you are skipping because women always skip that step when giving advice which is why your advice is harmful. Hopefully any dudes reading through this thread in the future will see this exchange and go "Wow, not only is this dude right, he's also able to describe the thought processes of women who then behave exactly like he predicted. I should take dsfargeg's advice about ignoring women's advice seriously" instead of listening to you and screwing themselves over.

That said, one last piece of advice for those dudes reading this thread:

and if it fell apart it was a personality/values things like the dude victim blaming a child who accused his friend of molesting her.

What's being described here isn't a real thing. Women lose their attraction to you first, then rationalize that feeling afterwards in whatever manner gives them the greatest degree of relative social status (often by tearing you down) afterwards. They then sincerely believe their own rationalization which is why asking them for the reasons behind their behavior gets you junk data. To understand women, you have to realize everything they say is a post-hoc justification for their feelings designed to help them in social their social games and they sincerely believe it so they're not even really lying to you.

They will also always deny that they do that, because they're not self-aware enough to realize it.

 

[Entryhazard]

Really just bouncing off that thick skull of yours instead of sinking in, huh? Let me repeat myself from upthread:

That aside, thank you for so beautifully demonstrating that massive mental blind spot I've been warning everyone about and thus demonstrating why dudes should not take any dating advice from women. "They generally need to excel in a trait that is of value" - Yes, that is a form of being attractive. This is the step you are skipping because women always skip that step when giving advice which is why your advice is harmful. Hopefully any dudes reading through this thread in the future will see this exchange and go "Wow, not only is this dude right, he's also able to describe the thought processes of women who then behave exactly like he predicted. I should take dsfargeg's advice about ignoring women's advice seriously" instead of listening to you and screwing themselves over.

That said, one last piece of advice for those dudes reading this thread:

What's being described here isn't a real thing. Women lose their attraction to you first, then rationalize that feeling afterwards in whatever manner gives them the greatest degree of relative social status (often by tearing you down) afterwards. They then sincerely believe their own rationalization which is why asking them for the reasons behind their behavior gets you junk data. To understand women, you have to realize everything they say is a post-hoc justification for their feelings designed to help them in social their social games and they sincerely believe it so they're not even really lying to you.

They will also always deny that they do that, because they're not self-aware enough to realize it.

I don't know man, I believe women have human intelligence as well

 

[story645]

"They generally need to excel in a trait that is of value" - Yes, that is a form of being attractive. This is the step you are skipping because women always skip that step when giving advice which is why your advice is harmful.

Women tend to skip this step b/c we're socialized that it's a given - you have to be appealing to the person you want to appeal to. It's so automatic that yeah like why??? would anyone think they could skip it.

But also I'm really not skipping it bc "treating a woman like a person" is attractive because when women say that, they don't mean "be nice". It's encapsulating care, consideration, kindness, respect - generally traits that come about from being a fundementally decent person. (ETA: and also the way you all would like women to treat you). Women tend to pick up on the guys who are only nice to them and women they have to be nice to 'cause that's treating them as a prize. And yes some women are fine w/ being treated as a prize but they also generally want men who are prizes.

Women lose their attraction to you first, then rationalize that feeling afterwards in whatever manner gives them the greatest degree of relative social status

Women (maybe men too, dunno) don't want to date men they think have terrible views b/c that makes it very hard to respect the guy and women generally want to date guys they can respect. This plays out in dating stats all over the world b/c of the high rate of political polarization along gender lines.

to help them in social their social games and they sincerely believe it so they're not even really lying to you.

Dude, I mean this w/ all sincerity - women are not out to get men. In part b/c that would screw over their own ability to form healthy relationships w/ men b/c healthy relationships require trust.

ETA: have no idea how this discussion got to whatever the hell this is, but it started at someone saying they were like Gomi (the MC), who I think is legit weirdly endearing when he's open and vulnerable with the FMC.

 

[dsfargeg]

I don't know man, I believe women have human intelligence as well

idk man there's some pretty strong evidence against that in this very thread