Ruri Dragon - Vol. 2 Ch. 13 - Don't Need to Be Besties

[BuyVelomobiles]

While it may come across as clunky when transcribed in english, the talking past each other is definitely present in the raws. This is very common in flamewar texts. You can always tell an amateur translator when they attempt to have the speakers acknowledge each other's points. Native flamewar speakers do not do this.

I understand there's some level of that, but, much like Kyuukei did with Conia in Dourei Choukyou, you've gone and missed the nuance present in the raws. This is why we need to take care when we translate from one language to another; small changes in dialogue can have serious knock-on effects on the complete context of the conversation. It's less about the speakers acknowledging each other's points, and more the fact that the dialogue has been, for lack of a better term, abridged.

I understand it's often difficult to pack every last bit of meaning into limited space without having the text literally spill out of the bubble. But going in the other direction and just cutting out any bits that don't sound snappy, or don't align with the "localizer's POV (Lookin' at you, Crunchyroll) is just as bad, if not worse. Case in point: the raws did, in fact, feature all the lines in the middle panels, but, unlike in the top panels, they're completely unrelated.

Ruri's started going on a rant about interpretations after she JUST opened up the topic about personality differences between two very different translations (which, while a crucial part of the dialogue in the original, is barely even hinted at here) , and Maeda has just randomly decided to bring up her Autism. Yes, both happened, but in response to entirely different dialogue.

Ruri ends up looking like she can't focus on a topic for more than a single bubble, and Maeda just looks like she's baked. But the angry baked. One can almost forgive the bit with Maeda, since there's comparatively little space to work with, but it's a damn shame what was done to Ruri here. There was plenty of space to adapt more of her dialogue. There was no need to pare it all down to a few sound bites.

 

[TentacleUser]

I agree that the localization is kinda bad. Ignoring the added slang, snark/sarcasm is a tier of offensive. That changes characterization. It's odd how people get up in arms over rightful criticism as if it were their own job on the line.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

It's odd how people get up in arms over rightful criticism as if it were their own job on the line.

The real odd thing is how they're so consumed by it, they'll literally pop up in unrelated threads to speak ill of me to people they don't even know. By bringing up imaginary events, to boot!

 

[AngelFlash]

i'm so sick of this translation man. why the fuck are these japanese high schoolers saying bruh. this is some 4kids ass dialogue.

 

[anf]

Did it, though? It's essentially the same statement, except one is slightly more feminine.

It's weird that I've got the guy who doesn't know what sarcasm means is telling me I have a worse grasp of English than him, and the same guy, who thinks "だよね" is a sarcastic response, that I have a worse grasp of Japanese than him.

I went ahead and ran the scene by the newest version of GPT (IT CAN READ THE TEXT IN THE IMAGE NOW!), juuuust to make sure I'm not being the retard here (It happens sometimes, you know). Guess what I got:

Spoiler: I'm right.

I'm guessing your response is "WELL THE MACHINE IS STUPID TOO, AND SO IS THAT OTHER TRANSLATOR GUY. WHAT'S HIS FACE... @YamiryuuZero "

Not that the truth is a democracy or anything, but you've got an AI superintelligence, and two translators outright telling you you're wrong. Maybe dial the smug back.

Yeah, in this context it would be rude, sassy... rather like "Obviously", though not exactly, given the fact that Japanese has a wide variety of politeness levels when speaking, and the people have their own cultural expectations for what's appropriate when, and with who. It would inform the reader that while she is worried about her current predicament, she's got the presence of mind to give attitude to even her own parent. It may even suggest that this is her way of coping with stress, if this becomes a pattern.

She didn't say that, though.

I'm wondering how old you are, and what your first language is at this point.

"Forbidden​

You don't have permission to access this resource."

Also, you think だよね is sarcastic. I don't imagine I'll see anything convincing, even if I get access.


Three out of three Japanese speakers agree: It's you.

Wow, I guess we know how you do your "translation" work now lol. It was pretty obvious that you just used a translation machine, but I honestly didn't expect you to tell on yourself like that.

If you were able to understand english better, you'd remember that I said it had a sarcastic flair to it in that situation. Not that the phrase itself was always sarcastic, which is what you appear to think I said. Thankfully, my post is still there so you can put that into ChatGPT and have it tell you the meaning of my words.

Looks like that raw site went down, it was page 35 from the first volume of nozaki-kun. Here, I went ahead and took a picture myself of my copy of the volume. You can throw that into ChatGPT so you know what it says, but it's Chihiro being very sarcastic to Mikoshiba.

I believe there are plenty of people who completely disagree with you. Three on your side is really not very impressive. But, to be completely honest, I am confident in my own Japanese knowledge so I really don't care that three self professed translators don't agree with me lmao. Especially when you are one of them.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Wow, I guess we know how you do your "translation" work now lol. It was pretty obvious that you just used a translation machine, but I honestly didn't expect you to tell on yourself like that.

Huh? I don't know where this smug attitude is coming from. It's sounding a lot like "You use a ruler to measure things? Cringe. Amirite, bois? Can't believe you'd actually admit to that publicly." I've never hidden the fact that I use tools to help me with my work. I use Jisho too. You going to get smug about that? "Real men absorb the meaning of Kanji through their assholes! When I see a word I don't know, I put the screen on the floor and smash these cheeks down until it makes sense!"

I've gone and made myself giggle now.

If you were able to understand english better, you'd remember that I said it had a sarcastic flair to it in that situation. Not that the phrase itself was always sarcastic, which is what you appear to think I said. Thankfully, my post is still there so you can put that into ChatGPT and have it tell you the meaning of my words.

If you were able to understand English better you'd realize that I'm telling you there's no sarcasm at all in the scene.

Looks like that raw site went down, it was page 35 from the first volume of nozaki-kun. Here, I went ahead and took a picture myself of my copy of the volume. You can throw that into ChatGPT so you know what it says, but it's Chihiro being very sarcastic to Mikoshiba.

You know, in the time it took you to make this post, I realized this is a red herring. Who cares what happens in other manga? Also, she's got a clearly-disinterested face. Lo and behold, she's saying one thing, but means another. You know... like one would expect when one is being sarcastic. And wouldn't you know it, the manga makes it unbelievably clear she doesn't mean what she's saying, and is just playing along by literally telling us she's just listening because she has no choice in the matter, along with her face.

Ruri, on the other hand, goes to her mother for help, gets a plain response, and then, surprised by the matter-of-fact demeanor her mom's taken, reluctantly accepts the bizarre situation she's in. There's no judgement of mom, her words match her actions, mental state, etc., and the scene ends. There was no undertone of "Mom, you stupid. Of course they're horns", or "Imagine my own mother thinking these are horns. Cringe": She said exactly what she meant, and that was a reluctant "Yeah, these are horns"

I believe there are plenty of people who completely disagree with you. Three on your side is really not very impressive.

Two translators and a Super Intelligent AI vs. Randos who don't speak Japanese: The battle of the century!

But, to be completely honest, I am confident in my own Japanese knowledge so I really don't care that three self professed translators don't agree with me lmao. Especially when you are one of them.

You say you lived in Japan? I feel like you got by more on their kindness than any proficiency in the language. I'm guessing you got a lot of 日本語上手ですね!

Also, what do you mean "Self-professed"? I don't know about the other guy, but not only can you read my work, there's a non-zero chance you already have! I'm the TL for Orchid of the Moon, and I did the whole Cheeky Gyaru series! (Don't read that one. :| )

 

[anf]

Huh? I don't know where this smug attitude is coming from. It's sounding a lot like "You use a ruler to measure things? Cringe. Amirite, bois? Can't believe you'd actually admit to that publicly." I've never hidden the fact that I use tools to help me with my work. I use Jisho too. You going to get smug about that? "Real men absorb the meaning of Kanji through their assholes! When I see a word I don't know, I put the screen on the floor and smash these cheeks down until it makes sense!"

I've gone and made myself giggle now.


If you were able to understand English better you'd realize that I'm telling you there's no sarcasm at all in the scene.


You know, in the time it took you to make this post, I realized this is a red herring. Who cares what happens in other manga? Also, she's got a clearly-disinterested face. Lo and behold, she's saying one thing, but means another. You know... like one would expect when one is being sarcastic. And wouldn't you know it, the manga makes it unbelievably clear she doesn't mean what she's saying, and is just playing along by literally telling us she's just listening because she has no choice in the matter, along with her face.

Ruri, on the other hand, goes to her mother for help, gets a plain response, and then, surprised by the matter-of-fact demeanor her mom's taken, reluctantly accepts the bizarre situation she's in. There's no judgement of mom, her words match her actions, mental state, etc., and the scene ends. There was no undertone of "Mom, you stupid. Of course they're horns", or "Imagine my own mother thinking these are horns. Cringe": She said exactly what she meant, and that was a reluctant "Yeah, these are horns"


Two translators and a Super Intelligent AI vs. Randos who don't speak Japanese: The battle of the century!


You say you lived in Japan? I feel like you got by more on their kindness than any proficiency in the language. I'm guessing you got a lot of 日本語上手ですね!

Also, what do you mean "Self-professed"? I don't know about the other guy, but not only can you read my work, there's a non-zero chance you already have! I'm the TL for Orchid of the Moon, and I did the whole Cheeky Gyaru series! (Don't read that one. :| )

I'm the TL for Orchid of the Moon

That's great for you, though I do wonder if you properly credit ChatGPT 🤔

You know, in the time it took you to make this post, I realized this is a red herring.

This was literally your entire point - that the Japanese people are completely incapable of sarcasm, have never done it, and will never do it. As I said before, it is one of the most absurd things I had ever read especially from someone who claims to be a translator. It really puts into question how well you can comprehend things in Japanese if you so obstinately refuse to see something so basic. Though it does appear that I might have been able to change your opinion on this, so that's progress at least.

Ruri, on the other hand, goes to her mother for help, gets a plain response, and then, surprised by the matter-of-fact demeanor her mom's taken, reluctantly accepts the bizarre situation she's in. There's no judgement of mom, her words match her actions, mental state, etc., and the scene ends. There was no undertone of "Mom, you stupid. Of course they're horns", or "Imagine my own mother thinking these are horns. Cringe": She said exactly what she meant, and that was a reluctant "Yeah, these are horns"

That is one way to read the situation. You only have to imagine that these two are emotionless dolls for it to all make sense. Or, you can see that in the first half of their conversation her mom asks what the heck grew out of her while she was sleeping. Ruri then (almost sarcastically, but with a bit of attitude) replies "How should I know, I was asleep?"
The mom then cops her own attitude and dryly responds when Ruri asks what she thinks of them/the situation and just states the obvious, "They look like horns to me." Ruri, after getting a taste of her own medicine, sarcastically replies (with an exasperated sweat drop and a furrowed brow) "…だよね." aka a feeling of "great observation, thank you mom. I see what you're doing." She then clarifies her question to ask specifically what she wants to know.

This all resolves in the next page when her mom lets out a sigh and ends the back and forth with a proper answer for her daughter about how she is only half human.

On one hand we have your interpretation where these two have no personality and act in a very unnatural way. That, you have said, is the "joke." On the other hand, we have an interpretation that gives a lot of life to these characters and makes the conversation feel more "real." Where the conversation itself, and the overly familiar interaction between parent and child in this bizarre situation, is the humor. One is, also, the official translation approved by the publishing company that produces this manga. The other is pushed by a person on the internet who, until yesterday, didn't know that the Japanese people use sarcasm.

I use Jisho too.

I've used Jisho before, though I think Goo and Weblio are better. I'll recommend them to you since, if nothing else, you do seem to have a passion for Japanese.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

That's great for you, though I do wonder if you properly credit ChatGPT 🤔

I get the sense you imagine be putting every line into GPT and then copying what it spits out, since you don't actually know how the translation process works. Today's a chill day for me, so I'll let you in on a little secret: I speak WAY more Japanese than I read. Whenever I have trouble with a line, 70% of the time, it's enough to just have the machine sound it all out for me. The other 20% is split between a single word I'm not familiar with, and the exact effect some particle has on a long sentence. Maybe once every chapter or two do I really have to sit down, pull out the dictionary, ask GPT, or otherwise study whatever it is I had trouble with.

The raw outputs for GPT are dangerous, since, on top of regular mistakes it makes due to lack of context or something, it's also been trained by Communists, so if it ever detects some message that doesn't comport with The Message, it'll often warp and distort the text to inject political ideology. Case in point: I just did a line last night where a lie some guy told was more credible because he was White. Here's the exchange:

Spoiler: The confusing bits were 白人, and 故, by the way. Heard them before, but never read them before.

The text reads:
「白人故に信憑性が増してしまったのである」
Translation: "Because they were white, it unfortunately added to their credibility."


Where does it imply ”unfortunately”?

You're right; the text does not imply "unfortunately." Here is the corrected translation:
"Because they were white, it added to their credibility."


It's unfortunate your creators would have you impose their political viewpoints on something as simple, and apolitical as a translation.

I apologize for that. Here is the corrected translation without any added implications:
"Because they were white, it added to their credibility."

This was literally your entire point - that the Japanese people are completely incapable of sarcasm, have never done it, and will never do it.

In the end, it's not sarcasm. The Japanese don't do sarcasm. It's such a rare thing, it has to be pointed out when it actually does happen.

I think the problem is you're having trouble telling the difference between "Categorical" statements and "General" statements. I enlisted the help of GPT to help explain:

Spoiler: Did a better job than I would have, if I'm being honest.

Imagine you have a big box of crayons.
Categorical Statement is like saying, "All the crayons in this box are red." This means every single crayon in the box has to be red, no exceptions. It's a very specific and clear statement about every crayon in that box.
General Statement, on the other hand, is like saying, "Crayons are colorful." This means that crayons can be many different colors in general, not just one specific color. It's more about what crayons are usually like, not making a strict rule about them.
So, a Categorical Statement gives a definite rule for a specific group, and a General Statement talks more broadly about things in a usual way.


What if I see a crayon that's not colorful?

If you see a crayon that's not colorful, like a white or a black crayon, it shows that the General Statement "Crayons are colorful" isn't always true for every single crayon. General Statements are about what's usually true, but there can be exceptions. So, just because most crayons are colorful doesn't mean every crayon has to be bright or vivid—some can be plain colors like white or black too! This is a good example of why General Statements are more flexible and not strict rules.


How do I tell the two apart?

To tell apart a Categorical Statement from a General Statement, you can think about whether the statement is talking about every single item in a group without any exceptions, or if it's just describing what is usually true but can have exceptions. Here are some tips to help you:

1. Look for Absolute Words: Categorical statements often use words that leave no room for exceptions, like "all," "every," "none," or "always." For example, "All dogs have four legs" is a categorical statement because it says every dog without exception.
2. Check for Flexibility: General statements usually have more flexibility and don't use strict, absolute words. They describe what is typical or common. Words like "most," "usually," "often," or "generally" hint that it’s a general statement. For example, "Dogs are friendly" is a general statement because while many dogs are friendly, some might not be.
3. Consider the Context: Sometimes the context can help you decide. If the statement is about a rule or law, it's more likely to be categorical. If it's an observation about how things often are, it's probably a general statement.
4. Think About Exceptions: Try to think of an exception to the statement. If you can easily think of an exception, it's probably a general statement. If no exceptions fit, it might be categorical.

By using these tips, you can better understand whether a statement is meant to be absolute and cover every case, or if it's more about what's generally true but with some exceptions.


So if I hear someone say "The Japanese don't do sarcasm", he's not talking about every Japanese ever, past, present, and future?

Exactly, you've got it! When someone says, "The Japanese don't do sarcasm," it's a general statement. It's suggesting that, culturally, sarcasm may not be as common or as heavily used in Japan as it might be in other places. However, it doesn't mean that no Japanese person ever uses sarcasm. There are definitely Japanese people who understand and use sarcasm.
This kind of statement is more about observing a general trend or cultural characteristic rather than making an absolute rule that applies to every single person. So, it's important to remember that there can be many exceptions to general statements like these.

That is one way to read the situation. You only have to imagine that these two are emotionless dolls for it to all make sense. Or, you can see that in the first half of their conversation her mom asks what the heck grew out of her while she was sleeping.

No, she was just as confused about the situation before hearing how they got there. Once she heard they grew overnight, she understood what happened. At that point, she grasped that they were horns. Like horn horns. Mom clearly has a handle on the situation, and so Ruri asks, and mom answers. You'd have to imagine that a Japanese story, set in Japan, written by a Japanese author, featuring quintessentially Japanese people, won't have ridiculous sarcastic quips in a serious situation.

Ruri then (almost sarcastically, but with a bit of attitude) replies "How should I know, I was asleep?"

Yeah, maybe a tiny bit of attitude. Mom asks a slightly dumb question, as would be socially appropriate. They're both trying to get a handle on the situation. For all mom knows, they'd been popping up slowly for a bit and finally burst out all at once.

One is, also, the official translation approved by the publishing company that produces this manga.

Companies agree to publish all sorts of things. This isn't the own you think it is. Are you not familiar with Mushoku Tensei's problems, and not to mention " I Think I Turned My Childhood Friend into a Girl"? Or are these not "approved" like the Ruri manga thing? Also, the "official" translation is outright wrong, since even if we pretend she's actually this quippy, sarcastic girl, the lines themselves have been rewritten. This is even less up for debate than the sarcasm bit.

I've used Jisho before, though I think Goo and Weblio are better. I'll recommend them to you since, if nothing else, you do seem to have a passion for Japanese.

Jisho lets you input characters you don't already know how to write. If I knew what they sounded like, I wouldn't need Jisho.

 

[Elmithian]

Ruri isn't actually an introvert, though. She's shown many times that she's very extroverted with people she knows. Her problem is exactly what Maeda says: She doesn't care enough about other people to start making connections with them. That isn't an introvert trait. It's mild antisocial behavior, especially for a Japanese teenage girl. It's probably a side effect of her hikki trait which according to mom might be a dragon personality trait.

Maeda is the only proper introvert so far.

"Being extroverted by people she knows"

How to tell people you have no idea how most introverted people behave around friends without saying it straight out.