Saikyou no Maou ni Kitaerareta Yuusha Isekai Kikanshatachi no Gakuen de Musou Suru - Ch. 22

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Your comparison is not equal, your argument is a loop of assumptions
No, it's statements of fact: Things explicitly stated in the story.
F
It does not. She summoned him, but that does not mean she did not summon him the exact same way every other hero summon goes, or are you going to say that every hero that was summoned by a kingdom is also not a hero?
No one was summoned by a Kingdom here. This is the Divine Intervention isekai. The twist here is that there's a single person that didn't get summoned by a Goddess. Thanks to that, he missed out on all the perks of it. Among said perks is the "cheat skill". The implication is that even if a kingdom did manage to summon someone, they'd just have some schlub off the street, since they, not being Goddesses, can't unlock their cheat skills for them.
They continued to send heroes to go after a demon lord that has destroyed at least 3000 worlds, that they could not defeat with the previous how ever many heroes, yet they still sent heroes after her.
No, they didn't. She was sealed. The case was solved. No more problem. You're making an assertion that's directly contradicted by the story. Kyouya says he doesn't have a cheat skill? "We really don't know one way or another!" Felice says she summoned him? "It's the work of a Goddess!" Felice explains only a Goddess can unshackle you, and thus grant you a cheat skill? "You see, he totally could have one, because a Goddess summoned him!"

You're either unreasonable, or trolling. Either way, this is fun.
There is a difference, especially in Japanese. If she specifically meant only the goddesses, there is no reason why she wouldn't just say "the goddesses" instead of "the beings called goddesses"
I suspect you don't speak Japanese either. The original line was likely something like "女神という者”, which is the Japanese equivalent of saying "These so-called 'Goddesses' ". Which is literally just a way of acknowledging what others call them.

And heck, the details of that drug call your clear-cut interpretation of the line into question anyway. "Only the goddesses can unlock unique abilities," yet along comes this drug that also unlocks unique abilities. We've yet to see or hear if these abilities are temporary, but it unlocks abilities that by your understanding only the goddesses should be able to unlock. Whatever they're made of, or who made them, it still ruins your premise that a hero must be summoned by a goddess to gain a unique ability.
Yeah, there's an extremely powerful backer that's rendered everyone involved immune to the Goddesses' memory tampering. Said backer is able to subvert their active efforts to find it, and can make a "drug" that can give people additional abilities beyond the ones inherent to them. Sounds like a Goddess so far. Also the drug doesn't work as retroactive justification for your thing, because it just showed up, and nobody has taken it before now.
 
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I had just posted it, so there was basically no way for you to see it. I was simply making a shorter post to only reply to your question, instead of expecting you to read a long post that wasn't a reply to you, that also had that answer in it.
So... I went and started looking for your referenced post... but I did this by scrolling up (as opposed to clicking on the little arrow at the beginning of the quote of my text that jumps to the quoted post, and repeating until I found the post).

Who boy... For a moment I considered joining in the above discussion... Naw, after reading three posts, I ain't touching that without a PC with multiple tabs open for various chapters, dictionaries, etc.
I KNOW for a fact that my memory of the events aren't good enough to really debate... So I will just leave my perspective at my original post and the reply to your's...
 
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I'm gonna chime in, "usually" does not not mean "always." If she meant that he was alone in that then she would have said "other" or "those," "usually" implies that that is not always the case; if 50.1% of summoned heroes meet with a goddess and remember it, that is still "usually" even though 49.9% do not. She also made the description of how abilities are unlocked more broad by saying "beings called goddesses" instead of just "goddesses." (subtle difference, but of great significance to the meaning) Further, if Kyouya was not taught what his ability was, or that it was a unique ability, then he'd have a hard time showing it off even if it wasn't some subtle passive ability like [Infinite Potential].
You're building up a bubble, but if you properly scrutinize what is being said, you'd find your bubble is full of holes.


Also, on the topic of conjecture:
My stance has always been there is not enough evidence to reach a conclusion, and you can go back to confirm that for yourself. That is a refutation, not conjecture. In this conversation, I am the only one offering a refutation that is not purely conjecture, I merely voice the inverse conjecture in evidence of the lack of information. This is not a debate between two conjectures, between a conjecture and a concrete refutation for lack of evidence.
To put this another way, they're shouting "Selkies are real!" And I'm telling them "then prove it," but they're only coming back with "well, I saw one once. . ."
Usually can have a spread of meanings, from "almost always the case" to "just over half the time", but that doesn't mean that when it is used, you can pick the definition that best fits your argument, and declare that to be the proper meaning for that instance. Context clues matter. So, what are the context clues for what "usually" means in this case? The context is that if he wasn't summoned by a goddess, it would be extremely suspicious because of how uncommon it is, and that he has to immediately try to deceive her, or else it could expose them. If "usually" meant "50.1% of the time" this wouldn't be a big deal to cover up, because it wouldn't be strange. Thus we can see that "usually" in this case means "almost all the time" but she can't say it "always" happens, because he wasn't summoned that way, so maybe there have been other, extremely rare cases as well.

In reality, though, your attempt at semantics about what "usually" means is to distract from the reality that he was not summoned by a goddess. You even reword it for your own purposes of "meet with a goddess and remember it", even though that isn't what the manga says. Felice is saying that his summoning was unusual because he wasn't summoned by a goddess at all. There are multiple quotes from the manga that directly state he WAS summoned by Felice and that he WASN'T summoned by a goddess. For it to be a "refutation" (according to your definition) it requires "lack of evidence" , but since the manga has multiple statements, by Kyouya and Felice that he wasn't summoned by a goddess, that means there is evidence to support that claim.

For you to claim that a goddess might have been involved, despite a lack of manga statements saying they were, and in spite of manga statements saying they weren't, means you are the one using conjecture. Since I pointed our your lack of evidence, and showed both evidence and logical reasoning for rejecting the idea that he was summoned by the goddesses, that means I was the one doing the "refutation" according to your definition. Rather than a "concrete refutation for lack of evidence" you are offering a "shaky conjecture" that the evidence that is provided might be later contradicted by something down the line.

As for the "beings called goddesses" statement, that is more likely to mean that Kyouya is throwing shade at them. He sees Felice as good, so if they are against Felice, then he rejects them as being "goddesses" because he sees them as evil. Regardless, it is another red herring by you, because even if we say that "goddesses and other powerful beings, like Felice, that could also be called goddesses are capable of granting powers" most of what we know about special powers and roots comes from Kyouya, and he is the one that still says he doesn't have a special ability. Even with the drug, he is saying that there has to be a powerful entity granting a special ability through the drug. The exposition we are given here about how "Special abilities" are granted is given by Kyouya. The same Kyouya who has told us, in multiple chapters (6 and 17, at least) that he doesn't have a "Special ability". So to pick and choose when he is a credible source, based on whether his statements might help or hurt your argument is insincere, at best.

There is evidence that he does not have a unique ability. There are direct statements to that effect in multiple chapters. There is evidence that he was summoned by Felice. There are direct statements to that effect in multiple chapters. There is evidence that he was not summoned by goddesses. There are direct statements to that effect in multiple chapters. There is no evidence that he does have a unique ability, that he was not summon by Felice, or that goddesses were involved in his summoning. There IS evidence that he could gain a unique ability.

Thus, in terms of which side is using evidence, and which side is using conjecture, you are the one relying on conjecture. I am just refuting your statements based on your lack of evidence. You said I was "building up a bubble", but I am the one that is using direct quotes from the manga, and specific chapter references, while you are just saying, "Nuh uh, because I said so." You are not arguing from the manga, but just that there are still chapters to be written and that those may later contradict what is currently written.

Is it possible that the author will later change things? Yes. Does that mean taking the author at his word right now is "merely conjecture not based on evidence"? No. There is evidence, and plenty of it. I've also offered multiple context clues that show that, based on how much they hate Felice and fear her, that if they were involved in him going there, they would have been keeping a close eye on him and that world, to further support what the manga directly says.

To put it another way, somebody is saying, "Silver-backed Chevrotains have been found to still exist" and showing pictures and eyewitness testimony, and you are saying "the pictures might be fake, even though I don't have a way to prove they are fake, and the eyewitnesses are probably lying, possibly being paid to lie. It is conjecture to believe Silver-backed Chevrotains aren't still extinct, and merely refutation to say there isn't any evidence they still exist because the evidence being presented MIGHT be fake evidence."
 
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How to spot a badly written character instantly:

7Xf1F1t.png


Like man, just go somewhere far away and live out your life with cat waifu. Or just blast everything and everyone standing in your way if you're so overpowered.

First: He cannot leave the school. The only way to leave this school is to get all your power taken away by the school and become normal person. Do you want to fight someone who has ability to take away all your power?

Second: the school may be the only place where he will get clues about how to turn the cat back to normal.
 
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So... I went and started looking for your referenced post... but I did this by scrolling up (as opposed to clicking on the little arrow at the beginning of the quote of my text that jumps to the quoted post, and repeating until I found the post).

Who boy... For a moment I considered joining in the above discussion... Naw, after reading three posts, I ain't touching that without a PC with multiple tabs open for various chapters, dictionaries, etc.
I KNOW for a fact that my memory of the events aren't good enough to really debate... So I will just leave my perspective at my original post and the reply to your's...
It's not really worth it if you don't enjoy arguing with people. The guy is either trolling, or willfully ignorant. He's literally contradicting the story, point blank, as it stands, then accusing everyone else of doing what he's doing.
To put it another way, somebody is saying, "Silver-backed Chevrotains have been found to still exist" and showing pictures and eyewitness testimony, and you are saying "the pictures might be fake, even though I don't have a way to prove they are fake, and the eyewitnesses are probably lying, possibly being paid to lie. It is conjecture to believe Silver-backed Chevrotains aren't still extinct, and merely refutation to say there isn't any evidence they still exist because the evidence being presented MIGHT be fake evidence."
It's even worse than that, really. Kyouya outright thought to himself that he doesn't have a cheat skill, and that he was summoned by a Demon King. So the other guy, as a reader, has direct, personal access to high-quality, first-hand information that a character shared in a context that leaves him with precisely 0 reason to hide, distort, or omit the truth. He thinks that doesn't prove anything.
First: He cannot leave the school. The only way to leave this school is to get all your power taken away by the school and become normal person. Do you want to fight someone who has ability to take away all your power?
They take away their powers by "re-shackling" them. So far, the Goddesses' role has been to take the already-powerful Earth people, and loosen the limiters placed on them. Kyouya never got the procedure, so it's likely there's nothing to undo.

Second: the school may be the only place where he will get clues about how to turn the cat back to normal.
They're all pretty indifferent to her cat form, and they know the cause. The idea is to live a normal life.
 
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Rapidly losing patience with MC, how much fucking hiding are you gonna do?
This time it's justified. If that fight continued, they probably would've harmed themselves from using too much magic. Ending it immediately was the right call
 
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Usually can have a spread of meanings, from "almost always the case" to "just over half the time", but that doesn't mean that when it is used, you can pick the definition that best fits your argument, and declare that to be the proper meaning for that instance. Context clues matter. So, what are the context clues for what "usually" means in this case? The context is that if he wasn't summoned by a goddess, it would be extremely suspicious because of how uncommon it is, and that he has to immediately try to deceive her, or else it could expose them. If "usually" meant "50.1% of the time" this wouldn't be a big deal to cover up, because it wouldn't be strange. Thus we can see that "usually" in this case means "almost all the time" but she can't say it "always" happens, because he wasn't summoned that way, so maybe there have been other, extremely rare cases as well.

In reality, though, your attempt at semantics about what "usually" means is to distract from the reality that he was not summoned by a goddess. You even reword it for your own purposes of "meet with a goddess and remember it", even though that isn't what the manga says. Felice is saying that his summoning was unusual because he wasn't summoned by a goddess at all. There are multiple quotes from the manga that directly state he WAS summoned by Felice and that he WASN'T summoned by a goddess. For it to be a "refutation" (according to your definition) it requires "lack of evidence" , but since the manga has multiple statements, by Kyouya and Felice that he wasn't summoned by a goddess, that means there is evidence to support that claim.

For you to claim that a goddess might have been involved, despite a lack of manga statements saying they were, and in spite of manga statements saying they weren't, means you are the one using conjecture. Since I pointed our your lack of evidence, and showed both evidence and logical reasoning for rejecting the idea that he was summoned by the goddesses, that means I was the one doing the "refutation" according to your definition. Rather than a "concrete refutation for lack of evidence" you are offering a "shaky conjecture" that the evidence that is provided might be later contradicted by something down the line.

As for the "beings called goddesses" statement, that is more likely to mean that Kyouya is throwing shade at them. He sees Felice as good, so if they are against Felice, then he rejects them as being "goddesses" because he sees them as evil. Regardless, it is another red herring by you, because even if we say that "goddesses and other powerful beings, like Felice, that could also be called goddesses are capable of granting powers" most of what we know about special powers and roots comes from Kyouya, and he is the one that still says he doesn't have a special ability. Even with the drug, he is saying that there has to be a powerful entity granting a special ability through the drug. The exposition we are given here about how "Special abilities" are granted is given by Kyouya. The same Kyouya who has told us, in multiple chapters (6 and 17, at least) that he doesn't have a "Special ability". So to pick and choose when he is a credible source, based on whether his statements might help or hurt your argument is insincere, at best.

There is evidence that he does not have a unique ability. There are direct statements to that effect in multiple chapters. There is evidence that he was summoned by Felice. There are direct statements to that effect in multiple chapters. There is evidence that he was not summoned by goddesses. There are direct statements to that effect in multiple chapters. There is no evidence that he does have a unique ability, that he was not summon by Felice, or that goddesses were involved in his summoning. There IS evidence that he could gain a unique ability.

Thus, in terms of which side is using evidence, and which side is using conjecture, you are the one relying on conjecture. I am just refuting your statements based on your lack of evidence. You said I was "building up a bubble", but I am the one that is using direct quotes from the manga, and specific chapter references, while you are just saying, "Nuh uh, because I said so." You are not arguing from the manga, but just that there are still chapters to be written and that those may later contradict what is currently written.

Is it possible that the author will later change things? Yes. Does that mean taking the author at his word right now is "merely conjecture not based on evidence"? No. There is evidence, and plenty of it. I've also offered multiple context clues that show that, based on how much they hate Felice and fear her, that if they were involved in him going there, they would have been keeping a close eye on him and that world, to further support what the manga directly says.

To put it another way, somebody is saying, "Silver-backed Chevrotains have been found to still exist" and showing pictures and eyewitness testimony, and you are saying "the pictures might be fake, even though I don't have a way to prove they are fake, and the eyewitnesses are probably lying, possibly being paid to lie. It is conjecture to believe Silver-backed Chevrotains aren't still extinct, and merely refutation to say there isn't any evidence they still exist because the evidence being presented MIGHT be fake evidence."
It's not really worth it if you don't enjoy arguing with people. The guy is either trolling, or willfully ignorant. He's literally contradicting the story, point blank, as it stands, then accusing everyone else of doing what he's doing.

It's even worse than that, really. Kyouya outright thought to himself that he doesn't have a cheat skill, and that he was summoned by a Demon King. So the other guy, as a reader, has direct, personal access to high-quality, first-hand information that a character shared in a context that leaves him with precisely 0 reason to hide, distort, or omit the truth. He thinks that doesn't prove anything.

They take away their powers by "re-shackling" them. So far, the Goddesses' role has been to take the already-powerful Earth people, and loosen the limiters placed on them. Kyouya never got the procedure, so it's likely there's nothing to undo.


They're all pretty indifferent to her cat form, and they know the cause. The idea is to live a normal life.
"He was summoned by a demon king!" Yes, and the dude Kyouya beat up last arc was summoned by the kingdom, or did you forget that? Nothing about him being summoned by Felice eliminates the possibility that he was summoned through the goddesses just as that summoning was. I've said that almost every post, and it just keeps getting ignored because it's inconvenient for your argument.
 
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"He was summoned by a demon king!" Yes, and the dude Kyouya beat up last arc was summoned by the kingdom, or did you forget that? Nothing about him being summoned by Felice eliminates the possibility that he was summoned through the goddesses just as that summoning was. I've said that almost every post, and it just keeps getting ignored because it's inconvenient for your argument.
Nope, I didn't forget that, because there is nothing to forget. It is never stated in the manga that he was summoned by the Kingdom. If it is, please provide the quote and chapter. In fact, if you look at the beginning of chapter 18, when the rogue hero talks about being summoned, you can actually see what appears to be a winged goddess standing there above the people, having summoned him. So, with the manga STATING that other heroes are summoned by goddesses, with a winged individual that looks like a goddess spreading her arms out at his summoning, and with it NEVER STATING that he was "summoned by the kingdom", you assertion is baseless conjecture, not evidence.

Oh, and if you get to chapter 19, when the two goddesses are talking, we get told explicitly that Yuuki was "A hero summoned by another goddess. I didn't know the full extent of his unique ability either." I'd say that's checkmate for your argument that he wasn't summoned by a goddess, since the manga says he was.

Even if you say: "Nothing about [Kyouya] being summoned by Felice eliminates the possibility that he was summoned through the goddesses", the fact that when it mentions him being summoned by Felice, it specifically says: "And not by the goddesses" does eliminate that possibility. They don't say he was summoned by Felice, possibly aided by the goddesses, they say NOT by the goddesses. So your point is empty.

I have also addressed, in both posts (but especially the first one) why there is additional, contextual evidence, for saying the goddesses were not involved in Kyouya's summoning, and that they were not aware of it.
 
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"He was summoned by a demon king!" Yes, and the dude Kyouya beat up last arc was summoned by the kingdom, or did you forget that? Nothing about him being summoned by Felice eliminates the possibility that he was summoned through the goddesses just as that summoning was. I've said that almost every post, and it just keeps getting ignored because it's inconvenient for your argument.
To add to what the other guy said: They are in a school for returnees, run by Goddesses, made specifically to shuttle them from world to world, to fight Demon Kings pre-emptively. They're not Batman, waiting to see the Bat Signal in the sky before they walk out to do their job. Everyone involved is taking proactive steps to quash any and all Demon Kings. Why, with access to a few squads worth of Goddesses, the FUCK would they need mere mortals to summon anyone? It's like the police waiting for the bus to come around so they can get across town: They've already got cars! They can go right now!
In fact, if you look at the beginning of chapter 18, when the rogue hero talks about being summoned, you can actually see what appears to be a winged goddess standing there above the people, having summoned him. So, with the manga STATING that other heroes are summoned by goddesses, with a winged individual that looks like a goddess spreading her arms out at his summoning, and with it NEVER STATING that he was "summoned by the kingdom", you assertion is baseless conjecture, not evidence.
I honestly assumed the winged thing was a statue because of the lack of features. But adding to your bit about the Kingdom Summon, anyone that's seen even a single KS Isekai knows that they show up in the castle. There's no KS Isekai that dumps the protagonists in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, confused and disoriented. The other guy isn't just willfully ignorant of the events taking place in the story, but also of the basic tropes of the genre.
 
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To add to what the other guy said: They are in a school for returnees, run by Goddesses, made specifically to shuttle them from world to world, to fight Demon Kings pre-emptively. They're not Batman, waiting to see the Bat Signal in the sky before they walk out to do their job. Everyone involved is taking proactive steps to quash any and all Demon Kings. Why, with access to a few squads worth of Goddesses, the FUCK would they need mere mortals to summon anyone? It's like the police waiting for the bus to come around so they can get across town: They've already got cars! They can go right now!

I honestly assumed the winged thing was a statue because of the lack of features. But adding to your bit about the Kingdom Summon, anyone that's seen even a single KS Isekai knows that they show up in the castle. There's no KS Isekai that dumps the protagonists in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, confused and disoriented. The other guy isn't just willfully ignorant of the events taking place in the story, but also of the basic tropes of the genre.
I do find it interesting that the school has a ton of heroes they already have used, and know the capabilities of, that they can send on missions, and yet the goddess still continue to summon a lot of additional people to turn into new heroes and have them join the school. It makes me wonder if they have that high of a mission failure rate, or that high of an in-school culling, that they keep needing to use additional heroes.

At first, I also assumed the winged thing was a statue, but because of this discussion, I looked closer at the chapters (and some images), and I don't think so anymore. For one, we don't see a Dias for it, when almost every statue like that would have one, and it seems to just be on some sort of grassy slope or thatched surface (or above it). It is also in between two buildings, rather than be in an open area like a statue would normally be, and the craftsmanship of the surrounding buildings, compared to the craftmanship of it (if it was a statue), is quite distinct. That would be a massive undertaking to make a statue that big, and to haul it to this spot in a modest town.

Even if we were being as charitable as possible, though, and saying it was a statue, the fact they have a giant statue of what appears to be a goddess, and that when he was summoned, he ended up directly in front of the statue, would still give further indication that he was summoned by a goddess, possibly on request of the citizens or kingdom, but that it was a goddess that actually did the summoning. (Of course, we are later specifically told that he was summoned by a goddess, too.)
 
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I understand the people loosing patience with the MC, I do...
But take into consideration for a moment a few things.
He is not simply up against a super powerful school and/or country. There are literal gods in their world who control the school and send people to entirely different worlds giving them powers to fight against demons lords that threaten those alternative worlds.
Granted he is inarguably more powerful than these gods. It really cannot be argued because the first chapter(s) explicitly stated that the demon lord who summoned him, his cat, was sealed within her world because she was, quite literally, too powerful for the gods to deal with using summoned heros or directly themselves... hence the sealing.
Therein lies the problem. The gods basically control everything. Everything from granting power, monitoring power, to transfer of people from the "main" world to others and back. They absolutely will not respond kindly to that demon lord being out of her "cage".
The MC, who was summoned by the demon lord for her to train to kill her, so she could finally die (after "gaining" her "sanity" and effectively deciding to die but being unable to end it herself), decided to not do the one thing she summoned him to do, but instead show her "the world".

Could he fight off all the heroes and goddesses? Probably, maybe some sacrifice to do it on his behalf (quantity over quality, etc), and maybe not... But this does not matter.
If he is revealed it isn't like he just makes an enemy out of some super powerful school... or some country... nor would he just be making an enemy of all the goddesses. No, he would be making an enemy out of absolutely every world that demon lords appear in and the goddesses control (presumably all of them).
They either could not rest due to constantly being hunted, or worse, could not be part of civilization. Anyone who discovered who they were would utterly hate and fear them. They would have to live away from people completely (I mean, honestly, why wouldn't the goddesses spread their name and appearances to all civilizations they control if the MC made himself known and faced them?)

At that point the very reason to leave her "cage" becomes pointless. They may as well have just lived there indefinitely... And that wouldn't make much of an interesting manga after a quite short period of time... would it?

And, to anyone who actually managed to make it this far... congratulations, and sorry. I tried to shorten the above as much as I could...

But he hasnt even been able to touch let alone fuck the girl he has been living with for 30k years. Its just peak pathetic.
 

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