Sengoku Komachi Kuroutan: Noukou Giga - Vol. 5 Ch. 25 - Outcome

[alacaelum]

Wow... this one section turned in a veritable battle of ideology... maybe i should pitch in? XD

I have no doubt that at this point Shizuko really created a parallel timeline.

 

[karanga]

THIS IS ODA COUNTRY !

 

[Nep]

@criver

Spoiler

She doesn't have to give bad advice - she can just pretend she has little to no knowledge on anything military related. Instead she kept feeding him more and more military info.

It was too late by the time Nobunaga actively seeked her out. He already knows she has it. There is no pretending her way out.

Newsflash - the crossbow was actually known before she came, so that was just a slip of the author.

Not really a slip. The author pointed out that crossbows exists but the soldiers don't use it. Also doesn't matter since it got Nobunaga's attention.

While I do not deny that she is stupid, that quote is mostly harmless. Only through your leap of logic can it be related to her having extensive military knowledge - about production of saltpeter, logistics, military tactics and whatnot.

Unfortunately, that harmless quote IS technically military strategy. Also.

instead she's feeding military information to a ruthless warlord.

Pretty sure it counts.

War is waged if it is believed to be more profitable than peaceful economic relations. That's why you have things such as the European union - it's simply economically unviable for the countries in Europe to go to war with each other for example.

Only one quarter true at best. War is waged because of greed for wealth, fame, power, or even simply because one guy hates another person. Having good economic relations would give them wealth but not the other three. Its why there are lots of internal fighting going on even within their own clans. For example, Saito Dosan was killed by his own son Yoshitatsu. Uesugi Kagekatsu and Kagetora were brother-in-laws. Still killed each other to rule their clans. Don't mistake them for their western counterpart. There is no such thing as chivalry in asian history.

What even is the difference between a nuke and a better standard of living? There's obviously a big difference.

Of course, but there is also a difference between a nuke and military information from the future. For instance, one doesn't cause as much enviromental harm and collateral damage. Not that you care since you blanket everything as wrong. Might as well ask her to kill herself.

The question is - do you want Oda as a ruler? No - you do not. He is stupid, tyrannical, and has the moral compass of a war criminal from today's perspective. Shizuko is just stupid and short-sighted.

Oda is a stupid tyrant and a war criminal? By whose standards? Did you know Liu Bei is supposedly "benevolent" while Cao Cao was a "tyrant"? Yet Liu Bei is the one that threw his baby onto the ground while Cao Cao told people not to go to his funeral and to do their jobs.

But lets judge Nobunaga with this one here.

Is he stupid? No. He is smarter compared to the other warlords. He was the one that first used guns and tactics involving it in Japan.

Is he a tyrant? Yes. So is every other warlord except maybe Tokugawa. In fact, judging by how much he likes foreign culture and how people are usually "traditional", it is highly possible that the other side is as much a stubborn dumbass as he is a tyrant.

Is he a war criminal? Which part of what book did you find out that he is a war criminal and what are his war crimes? His bad reputation comes mostly from him disrespecting Buddhism and burning their monks. And its honestly not surprising since they are a bunch of parasites.

The question is - do you want Oda as a ruler? No - you do not

The only reason you are even arguing about this at all. Unfortunately, Shizuko's answer is between "she doesn't give a damn" and "Yes".

 

[exxp]

He knows her?! Color me surprised.

 

[IMACOP]

@Kefrayba They are taught that though. Sure, the higher ups are downplaying some stuff (which country doesn't?), but most of the people know and acknowledge what happen during WWII. Rather, Japanese people are some of the most pacifist people around, to the point of a good chunk of them wanting to get rid of their military (like WTF). Also, what's that got to do with this?

@criver

Spoiler

The British colonies banded together to fight the UK for independence and they became a nation, the USA, then when they are one country, the civil war happened. Did you accidentally missed that? Now, Americans consider themselves as one nation, not members part of an alliance. The EU is a big alliance of western European nations, with one reason for it's formation being - the giant red flag planted over east of Germany at that time, in other words, threat of war. Of course the members wouldn't fight each other when there are other threats around, that'd ruin the whole point of an alliance. As for how strong their unity is now, well... Brexit happened.

Today, the manner of warfare has changed. Sure, most nations don't openly war with one another, but that's only because it's more beneficial to shoot when people aren't looking. Try something called proxy wars. Also, the prolonged peace of this era is giving rise to tons of splinters within the established alliances. That's why we're seeing a rise in crazy, fascist-type leaders, and once we get used to those, then we'll see the next proper war.

@Nep

Spoiler

"Don't mistake them for their western counterpart. There is no such thing as chivalry in asian history." - Pretty sure the west is just as bad. Just sayin'.
"Did you know Liu Bei is supposedly "benevolent" while Cao Cao was a "tyrant"? Yet Liu Bei is the one that threw his baby onto the ground while Cao Cao told people not to go to his funeral and to do their jobs." Liu Bei is only the good guy because of Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which was written by descendants of his faction and most people only know or cared about that story, rather then the Records. Just sayin'.

 

[sinkingship]

@criver

Spoiler

It's funny because most of your examples work against your points.

The European union and United States are very much such economical and political unions. It is just unprofitable for members to wage wars with each other nowadays. This is also the reason why the economies are so strong.

Both of these "unions" have long histories of war. Do you know how many times Texas has tried to secede from the union? California? You know why they haven't? The military might of the rest of the union slaps them back into line every time they try. Hell, there was even a big thing called the American Civil War, you might have heard of it? Europe is even worse. They have wars spanning back thousands of years and it's only in the past century or so that they pulled out some semblance of unity - mostly because in the aftermath of a pair of huge wars you might have heard of all of their industrial bases were severely depleted and they literally didn't have the resources to wage war. Then in the post-nuke era M.A.D. changed the landscape of war entirely and the odds of a land war being waged against nuclear powers has gone way way down, not because of peace and love and economic harmony - but because of the fear of death.

She could have divulged minimal information, localising the effects to a minimum. While agriculture, economics, and medicine affects the military - it can also affect the reasons for waging wars. You can just make it unprofitable to wage wars due to economic relations and interdependence - not unlike what you see between first world countries today.

I mean, if she just didn't hand out her tech then yeah she wouldn't be responsible for any wars? But then we wouldn't have a story? And her circumstances being what they are she doesn't really have the option of "just not cooperating" or trying to set up some sort of economic and agricultural utopia. Her social position isn't anywhere near strong enough to move the nation to her whims like that - and even if it was she would still need military might to force the other nations to play along with her "agricultural trade nations" plan.

Additionally, there's still a large difference between giving out military ideas and agricultural ones. In one case the military effect is a byproduct and a lot lesser.

There are some differences I admit but considering how wars in the 1500s were waged the differences are much much smaller than you think. Just having the food to feed your troops and the money to pay them was like 80% of the battles back then.

Putting better weapons in tactics in their hands only makes the wars shorter and reduces the amount of suffering overall.

Untrue. Or do you need a reminder of the Vietnam war? Agent orange? Nukes over Japan?

More Japanese people died from being fire-bombed by American bombers than from the 2 nuclear weapons. It's like the quintessential example of "better weapons shortening wars and reducing suffering". Many historians will tell you that dropping the nukes and forcing unconditional surrender immediately (as opposed to continued bombing campaigns and an eventual land war) reduced the overall number of casualties from the war.

But again it's apples and oranges. Like even if you're dubious and think that the technological advantage (of gun vs. spears) won't effectively shorten the war you can't honestly argue that knowing the tactics and personalities of the generals won't? The war is happening either way, regardless of what MC does, so not sharing her knowledge won't change the outcomes (i.e: the forces with inferior weapons and supplies will still lose) it only changes the amount of time and people get expended in the process of "losing".

 

[criver]

@Nep

Spoiler

It was too late by the time Nobunaga actively seeked her out. He already knows she has it.

Yeah, no. He doesn't know what's in her head unless she keeps spilling the beans - which she kept doing. Just further reinforces the argument that Shizuko is stupid.

The author pointed out that crossbows exists but the soldiers don't use it.

Incidentally forgot to point out why those were not being used also. Something something crossbow string, steel modern manufacturing.

that harmless quote IS technically military strategy.

I believe nobody taught you the difference between military tactics and "wise" sayings (which by themselves are fairly useless).

Its why there are lots of internal fighting going on even within their own clans.

Fighting within your own clan is somewhat different than waging war due to scarcity of resources. The better off their people are, the less they would be willing to participate in stupid power struggles.

Might as well ask her to kill herself.

What manner of leap in logic did you use to arrive at this conclusion?

Oda is a stupid tyrant and a war criminal? By whose standards?

By today's standards. If what Oda did was done today he would be tried for crimes against humanity. We have the Geneva convention and all that jazz. Our morals have also changed a fair bit.

Is he stupid? No. He is smarter compared to the other warlords.

And stupider in many aspects than a lot of average people today that simply had a decent education.

Is he a tyrant? Yes. So is every other warlord except maybe Tokugawa.

All the more reason Shizuko shouldn't be throwing future knowledge left and right.

Is he a war criminal?

By today's standards - yes. Incidentally, Shizuko comes from 21st century Japan. I'll let you connect the dots.

The only reason you are even arguing about this at all.

The only reason I am arguing about this is because our MC is insufferably stupid. However, people still keep trying to rationalize her stupid decisions simply because she is the MC.

 

[Nep]

@IMACOP

I know the west is just as bad. Difference is they have to find an excuse to do such deeds cos it goes against chivalry, yada yada. The Japanese have no such thing. Its fair game all the way.

I also know Liu Bei is only the good guy because RoTK is written by his faction. Was pointing out that just because "history" says that Nobunaga is an evil tyrant, it doesn't necessarily mean he is one.

 

[sylvacoer]

Ah, I was wondering how the castle caught fire so quickly - I thought maybe she'd recreated some form of gasoline. which was why I was so horrified in the previous chapter. But alcohol fire is flashy and won't do much damage (not unless the wood is very dry, which is unlikely, since the Japanese had *plenty* of experience besieging and protecting their wooden castles). Perfect way to make soldiers panic and run.

 

[IMACOP]

@Nep No, no. They have chivalry. It's just that their chivalry differs to that of the west. One man's garbage is another's treasure sort of thing. Like Japanese war crimes of WWII, many always ignore or forget that Japan didn't sign the convention but were judged based on it, because they're the losers. Not saying what they did wasn't horrible, but they're separate issues.

Also, I know that you know. Was just sayin'. 😝

 

[Arcara]

Everybody in comment section dogpiling in one dumb guy (think I saw him on some other threads)

Keep going, can't be arsed to repeat what nep sinkingship and others have said

On topic, how many alcohol did they chuck that can produce more than 30s fire? With hand grenade size container, you kinda need dozens per square meter unless they keep throwing after ignition
Higher proof is more likely to hasten fuel consumption iirc

 

[criver]

@IMACOP @sinkingship

Spoiler

The reason you do not see countries in the EU fight each other is not because of nukes - not every EU country has nukes. It's just unprofitable - it's like shooting yourself in the foot - that's how economically reliant they are at this point. Brexit happened for multiple reasons, but it's important to mention that Germany was the one country that gained most (economically) from the union, while countries like Italy lost a lot. As I already mentioned - there's no use doing unprofitable things. UK will still have economical relations with the EU union even when they exit it (actually the reason why it's taking so long is precisely this).

A similar story for the states. They had wars in the past? Sure, but not since resources have been plentiful. An increase in the living standards leads to less wars simply because people do not have a reason to risk everything - especially attacking their neighbours. It's easier if they frame their wars as "liberating" or against "terrorism". Economic ties simply makes this even less plausible. And we're talking about Japan - you think any part of Japan would fight another today? No? Can you guess why? Something something post scarcity, education, JSDF, agreements.

not because of peace and love and economic harmony - but because of the fear of death.

I disagree. While nukes have a role to play - it's not as central as you make it out. In fact countries have been decreasing their nuclear arsenal. Kind of doesn't fit with your whole argument.

But then we wouldn't have a story?

My argument is not whether we would have a story - it's that Shizuko is simply stupid and short-sighted.

There are some differences

There are a lot of differences between providing firearms and crops. Wars in the past weren't anywhere near as deadly as WW1 and WW2. To boot she didn't have to boost Nobunaga's crop production by a 1000 - she could have just fulfilled his initial expectations and be done with that. Then if she wanted to she could try to spread her knowledge freely and equally. Instead she kept overdoing everything until Nobunaga (plot forced) guessed she was from the future.

Many historians will tell you that dropping the nukes and forcing unconditional surrender immediately

I believe you missed the part where this was done just so Japan would not become Soviet.

The war is happening either way, regardless of what MC does, so not sharing her knowledge won't change the outcomes

Sharing her knowledge already changed the outcome. I expect Nobunaga to control everything by the end thanks to her "not changing the outcome".

it only changes the amount of time and people get expended in the process of "losing".

Yeah, no. How about you check up on the WW1 and WW2 casualties. Or the mortality after guns, bombs, and any fancy military tech was introduced.

 

[LGear]

@Umesan

The time travellers was pretty much the major point of Chapter 20, when Shizuko discovers that she's actually the 3rd person to time travel to that era. The guy in this chapter appears to be the mysterious timetraveller swordsman shown in Chapter 20.

 

[Nep]

@criver

Spoiler

Yeah, no. He doesn't know what's in her head unless she keeps spilling the beans - which she kept doing. Just further reinforces the argument that Shizuko is stupid.

But he knows she has it, based on the same chapter he tested her crossbow.

I believe nobody taught you the difference between military tactics and "wise" sayings (which by themselves are fairly useless).

A wise saying from a military source with a military application

By today's standards. If what Oda did was done today he would be tried for crimes against humanity. We have the Geneva convention and all that jazz. Our morals have also changed a fair bit.

And by today's standards, letting people you can help die just because some other guy was suspected of war crimes is the only right thing to do.

And stupider in many aspects than a lot of average people today that simply had a decent education.

Hahahahaha. There is so many things wrong with this statement and thats not even counting the fact that you pretty much just agreed that Nobunaga is smart.

By today's standards - yes. Incidentally, Shizuko comes from 21st century Japan. I'll let you connect the dots.

Incidentally, what are his war crimes? Cause when I ask by "whose standards", I am asking if you mean the dumb historians famed for altering actual history for the sake of propaganda.

All the more reason Shizuko shouldn't be throwing future knowledge left and right.

Clearly your preferred answer is "Let more people die."

The only reason I am arguing about this is because our MC is insufferably stupid. However, people still keep trying to rationalize her stupid decisions simply because she is the MC.

No. The only reason you think the MC is insufferably stupid is because you are using your personal moral compass and priorities through the comfort of your computer and expect 16th century feudalism dumbasses to have the wisdom and priorities of a 21st century democratic politician WHILE treating lives like a number slave to morality.

You are sitting in your chair, "playing chess", trying to orchestrate a way for Nobunaga to lose because SMITE ALL EVIL. You don't stop to think about the other lives sacrificed along the way. You don't think of the conscripted farmers, or even the soldiers that have been guarding you and your farm for years.

You sit in your chair with your omnipotent plot armor. You don't stop to think about the jealous sexist teammates eyeing your position, nor do you think about any non-friendlies who would probably rape you the moment they get a chance. You don't bother thinking about whether Nobunaga is scary and or serious enough to warrant saying something useful. You just assume you would be safe with whatever agricultural information you have, as though it is not something Nobunaga can learn before treating you as disposable.

You sit with your history book, assuming it is all real and don't bother getting to know a person. You sit in your 21st century assuming being a war criminal now matters at all in the 16th century where your enemies would do the same or worse to you.

An increase in the living standards leads to less wars simply because people do not have a reason to risk everything

No. It is the change in values that led to less wars. After getting nukes, Japan learned how to be humble. The samurais are among the higher class people of the Sengoku era. Yet they are the ones that seppuku because "honor". Look at the Japanese now. "Honor?" Whats that? Is it tasty?

Similarly, we have dumb fks with perfectly good lives going all the way to ISIS so that they can blow themselves up in the current era.

There are a lot of differences between providing firearms and crops. Wars in the past weren't anywhere near as deadly as WW1 and WW2.

The reason why wars are deadlier because of firearms is the amount of training needed to use a firearm on BOTH sides. On top of that, firearms were ALREADY being used. All Shizuko did was supply gunpowder, allowing ONLY Nobunaga's gun units to be stronger. This is important because its like saying, we give Japan nukes as well. Then they nuke America in retaliation. One/two nukes "saved the world". Three/Four nukes Fallout76.

. To boot she didn't have to boost Nobunaga's crop production by a 1000 - she could have just fulfilled his initial expectations and be done with that. Then if she wanted to she could try to spread her knowledge freely and equally. Instead she kept overdoing everything until Nobunaga (plot forced) guessed she was from the future

Nice of you to assume that Shizuko can actually control exactly how much crops would be produced, and on top of that, assuming that Shizuko would want to risk her neck by skirting the lines of "expectations".

I believe you missed the part where this was done just so Japan would not become Soviet.

Bet anything that nobody cares if Japan is a Soviet nation to themselves. Point is dropping those nukes stopped Japan from killing more people everywhere else and its a good enough reason to drop the nuke.

Yeah, no. How about you check up on the WW1 and WW2 casualties. Or the mortality after guns, bombs, and any fancy military tech was introduced.

Guns were already introduced. All Shizuko made was ammunition.

@Arcara Yeah. I am pretty tired trying to repeat myself. I'll just stop. Life is short enough as it is.

Good night.

 

[Archomp]

Isn't fire from burning alcohol blue and more subdued?

 

[Mandalawangi]

One look at the pudgy guy and my mind instantly went

"It's-a-me, Mario!"

 

[criver]

@Nep:

Spoiler

But he knows she has it, based on the same chapter he tested her crossbow.

He knows she has a crossbow - not what's in her head. As already mentioned - crossbows were not something new for the time - they were just unviable in terms of resources and times required to produce (which Shizuko didn't change). You're stuck on the crossbow because it's the only thing that doesn't change anything.

A wise saying from a military source with a military application

Does not equal the knowledge how to produce saltpeter, or how to organize an army, or magically produce great crops. You can have 100 tomes of philosophy and sayings, and those would never have the same effect as a simple book on calculus for example.

And by today's standards, letting people you can help die just because some other guy was suspected of war crimes is the only right thing to do.

That's assuming he will do more good than bad with that knowledge. And that's your assumption - which mind you, you will never be able to defend.

There is so many things wrong with this statement

Which you conveniently cannot name, lest your argument be contested.

you mean the dumb historians famed for altering actual history

So we should rely on your fantasies about the period instead?

Clearly your preferred answer is "Let more people die."

My preferred answer is to not have a stupid MC that is controlled like a puppet by some warlord.

The only reason you think the MC is insufferably stupid is

Is the fact that she's not using her brain.

trying to orchestrate a way for Nobunaga to lose

I couldn't care less if Nobunaga wins or loses in a manga. Since the very beginning my argument was that Shizuko is stupid, as a counterargument to everyone trying to rationalize all of her poor decisions. I don't get why it's so hard to get this through your head - all of your imaginary strawmans and rationalizations have nothing to do with my actual argument.

as though it is not something Nobunaga can learn before treating you as disposable.

She's a great chess piece to keep up the productivity in village X, and can teach others to do so. She's additionally literate. Nobunaga has no reason to be displeased with her provided that she didn't keep spilling more and more info, making it painfully obviously that she's not even from that time.

You sit in your 21st century assuming being a war criminal now matters at all in the 16th century

On the contrary, Shizuko sits there with her 21st century morals, knowing all too well everything that Nobunaga did, and keeps spilling knowledge anyways. It's like she isn't thinking at all.

No. It is the change in values that led to less wars.

Study some more history and economy.

One/two nukes "saved the world". Three/Four nukes Fallout76.

Nukes never saved the world. The real world is not a video game. One strong enough nuke is enough to wipe out most life on earth.

Nice of you to assume that Shizuko can actually control exactly how much crops would be produced

She knew how much crops were being produced, and still "unintentionally" produced a lot more.

Bet anything that nobody cares if Japan is a Soviet nation to themselves. Point is dropping those nukes stopped Japan from killing more people everywhere else and its a good enough reason to drop the nuke.

You are simply wrong. Read Gar Alperovitz's work on the subject.

Guns were already introduced. All Shizuko made was ammunition.

Implying that this won't result in more casualties? What's your point.

 

[AgentKuga]

Can someone summarize the main points of THIS COMMENT SECTION because I have no energy to read any of it?

 

[blueRiver]

Thank you for the update!

 

[NazrinMaus]

@AgentKuga
People are arguing over whether teaching things is good or bad. Things like "If you teach them how to farm better and not starve, they'll just have more people who live to be soldiers!" and "teaching them how to make warmer clothing will just open up winter military conflicts!" etc.
The solution to them, thus, is to knock everyone back to the stone age because tribes living in squalor and beating eachother to death with stone clubs is better than anything else.