Stop NTR-ing yourself out of this NTR

[beep_repair]

Your position that NTRs greatest appeal is to cucks does not seem to add up when you're actually talking to cucks because it, apparently by it's definition, is antithetical to their position and kink. It seems to me that the answer to the question of "who does NTR appeal to" is the same as the people you're trying to say are a minority.

^ This is good. Challenging, anyway.

But I never said "NTR's greatest appeal is to cucks,"​

...i.e. men who want bulls to fuck their queans.​

^ these are "cucks" in cuckoldry-speak​

At no point has that been my position, or any part of it, so I think we're ok there.​

​

At the outset, my position on erotic netorare manga was that:​

...it must most greatly appeal to readers who identify w/ the cuckold.​

^ these are "cucks" in online comment-speak, a different thing​

Which is horseshit. I have no idea who such manga appeal to.​

​

I did say, as an aside, that some in the cuckoldry world must read erotic netorare manga.​

Which still seems fairly likely, on odds alone, but there's no sign of it. If present, they're few a/o quiet.​

That was just a tangent of the main discussion, though. Not an important point.​

Other things I've been wrong about:

• I've said fiction's audience can be assumed from its apparent "intent". Which is more horseshit.
• I've used terms like "kink", "fetish", & "fan" interchangeably <linguistic imprecision
• I've assumed the equivalence of kinks, fetishes & interests <conceptual imprecision

---

So I wonder:
What do we actually mean by "NTR", and what can we say about its audience?

I think (?) we're talking about erotic netorare manga featuring THREE MAIN CHARACTERS:​

1. The Protagonist -- a smoldick "nice guy" <always 1st-person
2. The Woman -- the Protag's love interest <typically 3rd-person
3. The Intruder -- a bigdick "alpha male" <always 3rd-person

And EIGHT KEY STORY POINTS, occurring in standard sequence:​

1. The beginning -- stable relationship of Protag to Woman
2. The Intruder's arrival -- sudden, obviously malign & threatening
3. The Intruder's seduction -- takes Woman dominantly, often by rape
4. The Protag's observation -- passively sees/hears this, but does not intervene
5. The Woman's awareness & submission -- knows Protag is there, but is lost in surrender
6. The Protag's arousal & devastation -- masturbates, sick w/ misery, thrilled by cuckoldry
7. The Woman's verbal betrayal -- pledges self to intruder's manhood, denies protag
8. The end -- Protag ejaculates, ashamed & humiliated, alone in wretched grief

---

​

I suggest we call erotic netorare manga built around these characters & elements "Basic NTR".​

And that we've both been talking about Basic NTR all along. I say this because:​

• When English-speaking fans of erotic manga say "NTR", they typically mean this kind of netorare.
  NTR doesn't necessarily mean netorare.
  And netorare isn't limited to downbeat stories about men cuckolded by predatory "alpha" types.
  But most English-speaking fans of erotic manga think those things are true, so the point is moot.
  In public discussions, the terms are always defined by idiots.
• Basic NTR is very popular & reliably makes hordes of online commenters lose their goddam minds.
• This is the only context in which I've regularly seen "identify w/ the alpha, not the cuck" responses.

---

​

Basic NTR portrays its characters & tells its story using THREE KEY NARRATIVE DEVICES:​

1. 1st-person POV to center the Protag's experience -- Only his thoughts/feelings (interiority) are shared
2. Story & POV to emphasize being cuckolded -- Protag's interiority heavily stressed at climax/conclusion
3. Story, art & POV to create "dark" atmosphere -- End shown as a miserable, hopeless & crushing defeat
   Due to these features, the overall tone of Basic NTR suggests an erotic hybrid of horror & tragedy.

And the erotic content of Basic NTR is always a THREE-WAY SEX ACT (w/ arguably queer/bisexual subtext):​

1. The Intruder -- Fucks the Woman
   Ship Kink 1: domination of Woman
   Ship Kink 2: indirect domination of Protag
2. The Woman -- Fucked by the Intruder
   aware of watching protag, verbalizes submission
   Ship Kink 1: submission to Intruder
   Ship Kink 2: exhibitionism
   Ship Kink 3: indirect humiliation of Protag
3. The Protagonist -- Masturbates watching them fuck
   Ship Kink 1: voyeurism
   Ship Kink 2: submission to Intruder's domination
   Ship Kink 3: submission to Woman's humiliation

---

​

Basic NTR's characters, story points, narrative devices & erotic content are all set in stone.​

I suggest that it would be absurd to simply ignore this in considering its audience.​

The the things that define a genre must play some part in its fan-appeal, right?​

​

So I wonder:
Why would a anyone become a fan of this pornographic suicide note?

CHECK ONE:​

1. I identify w/ the Protag -- I get off on being vicariously cuckolded <wins at NTR
2. I identify w/ the Protag -- I get off on vicarious pain & humiliation <masochist
3. I identify w/ the Intruder -- I get off on sad, masturbating cuckolds <honest
4. I identify w/ the Intruder -- I get off on life-wrecking submission <dominant pt. 1
   4a. I never noticed how gay it all is, and I enjoy denial <dominant pt. 2a
   4b. I totally noticed how gay it all is, and I am down <dominant pt. 2b
   4x. I see a hot girl getting fucked, so fuck off with your "gay" shit <noted
5. I identify w/ the woman -- I get off on vicariously cheating a/o getting taken <hott
6. I enjoy the suffering of the weak, as it adds spice to my erection <sadist/vampire
7. I feel validated by the "alpha wins, beta loses" real talk <misanthrope/MAGA
8. I like horror & tragedy, dark drama, babies in wells <cutter
9. I want to see how fucked-up it gets lol <trashfire
10. Just here for the comments

 

[beep_repair]

OK I get what you're saying but it's on the assumption that these sites are "safe" when that's not really a thing online, right? In fact, nothing is stopping me from making a fake account with a fake email and so on to get onto these sites and star lambasting these users. The worst they do is ban the account and if I have a VPN or Proxy they can't even ban me properly, so there is no real safety here so it still takes a level of courage to post on these sites. The only barrier is the time I'm willing to put in to make my stance known or mess with some people.

In fact the opposite is also true. I could easily make a throwaway account and be as brave as I want because it doesn't matter what's said, no one knows who is on the fake account but me. So what's the fear there, if any?

There's also the issue in that, as mentioned before, NTR doesn't seem to overlap with Cuckoldry since NTR is behind the back while cuckoldry is with permission and enjoyment. Right? We can't forget that distinction, that cuckoldry doesn't believe in behind the back sexual exploits unless permission is gained first and NTR generally doesn't ask. So it doesn't really even appeal to true cuckolds on a major level. So while yes, there are people arguing in those threads (the moralists as were referred to earlier) these places shouldn't likely be the kind of thing to scare away legitimate cucks because they're probably not there in the first place. Your core audience might be more closely related to rape fetishists or cheating fetishists and the aforementioned hate readers and so on, rather than legitimate cucks. It's a weird dynamic that's for sure.

Para. 1 response:
"Safe spaces", in this context, don't have to be perfectly safe. If they're a little safer and more private than the zoo at large and seem comfortable to their users, that's probably good enough. Yes, your comfy, cozy, safe-feeling online kink club with no real security could get mobbed by space invaders any time. But it probably won't. Even light moderation can make a big difference, especially if traffic is low.

Para. 2 response:
Good question. All I can say is that many (perhaps most?) people do seem to be affected, to at least some degree, by their senses of privacy and safety in online spaces. I've known some on whom such concerns weigh heavily, and others who couldn't care less. People are funny.

Para. 3 response:
I'm not yet completely convinced by the "zero overlap" argument, though I'm tending in that direction. I've never seen any evidence of cuckolding fandom in netorare manga comments. And while I'm not a netorare fan, I've spent plenty time in the sewer. After rethinking what I said yesterday, I've changed my mind on this point: If there were significant numbers of people into cuckolding reading netorare manga online, they would probably become visible now & then. Regardless of "masculine rules" or the character of the discussion, someone would eventually say something. But so far as I've seen, no one does.

I therefore think it's more likely that there aren't many bulls, cucks & cuckqueans reading netorare manga on MD & nhentai (not that it's relevant to our conversation). Maybe netorare manga & cuckolding are, as you suggest, incompatible in terms of their kink appeal. Maybe those into cuckolding get enough from IRL play & don't need more. The possibilities are endless. I mean, maybe cuckolding peeps are generally outgoing, friendly & socially-active. So they don't spend much time reading & talking about manga on the internet. And maybe netorare peeps are, well, different. So they don't go out & join IRL kink communities.

 

[akenoisbae]

If anyone ever needs to write a college dissertation on NTR just save this thread.

 

[idk234]

i read the whole thing, but i already liked the story before, because despite hating NTR elements in a story it's very upfront and honest about them so not really in the spirit of deception that most of those types of works are

 

[Eighty-six]

Tangentially related: in evaluating their concepts, I don't like NTR, but I also don't like it in either its regular or "reversed" iterations. Somehow, the knife being driven in the male victim is something that happens in both cases-- they both viciously emasculate the him.

In the former, the case is made that the guy isn't just inadequate for his lover-- he's inadequate on account of being a failed man, and literally just because he's not as good in bed.

But in "reverse NTR", the male "victim" is emasculated because he fails to prevail against a woman seducing him-- granted, it would be with her wiles, but... in that case, the failure starts with a lack of steadfastness in the case of the man, rather than in the regular variety where the woman is initially coerced and eventually "conquered". In that case, it's a loss of steadfastness due to the erosion of her will.

So, in regular NTR, the male victim's punished for sexual weakness or inferiority, but in reverse NTR it seems the man's punished for more so psychological weakness still unbefitting a man-- or, at least, a man's man.

I don't know, man, I'm getting sad just thinking about this.

 

[Aoi_Mizuha]

[I've decided to make this a post separate to the manga’s mainthread, both in order to not clutter it up with this massive wall of text, but also, because I think this topic does indeed warrant a thread of its own (this is not the only manga which people surface level evaluate on this website) ; if I’m incorrect in this assessment, please forgive me]

I promised I would write this essay; it has come sooner than I have imagined.
People, me included, are little things living in their own small bubbles; and that sometimes causes them to take less than optimal conclusions in a lot of things, manga reading included.

I’m talking about this manga: [mangadex-link]
The story does indeed contain some NTR elements. But I fear, from the many 1 star reviews left behind; that many of you miss the point of this story, read the first chapter in a hurry (or not even that); and take some unwarranted conclusions.

This is not uncommon, people review-bombing something they don’t like at the most elementary level happens all over the internet. This tendency could be discussed at length; but here I will only explain why in this particular case, with this particular Manga, the reaction is incorrect.

In short: This manga is quite good, has interesting characters, a novel plot, and act as a testament of why the "pornography" tag is not equivalent to lack of artistic talent in any artistic work. I believe that those who pass-up this particular story are NTR-ing themselves of something quite good.

If the mere mention of the term NTR, is enough to make you tremble, maybe even with anger, allow me then to spoil you the ending of this manga so that nothing may surprise you, while coming into this work:

Spoiler: ”This Spoils the Ending”

The guy un-cucks himself in the end, you baka.
In fact this work is not ""actual"" NTR (as ne-torare means "taking away by the means of sleeping with) and the girl is not, in fact, taken away by the means of sex.

Though it may be said that the story has NTR elements it is not NTR in it-self.

Anyway, into the actual essay:
Title: Agawa-san, sluttiness, discipline, and cybernetics, an essay.

[Agawa-san is the name of the Female Lead Character of the work in question]
[When I say "anime" I mean anime culture in general as an umbrella term"]

This essay used to have a system of spoiler tags; the essay it self would only give minor spoilers; and there would be nested spoiler tags to hide the "big ones"; unfortunately my essay was too big and chonky for mangadex (there is a word limit for your posts) and so I had to use a google-doc, and spoiler tags don't work in there; therefore:
It is very spoily.

Spoiler: ”Essay”

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEBgZu9keVBv9C69TZUkFyJKU-worn4Ug_wlXOnVqlM/edit?usp=sharing

^^^^^^^
Essay

The story benefits from some reading in between the lines (you don't need to), but I really do believe that even a minimally attentive reading will make you understand what I am talking about.

The introduction is enticing,
the tension is nerve-wracking,
the resolution is sweet.

It has some issues, it is not a 10/10, but also certainly not a 1/10. (I personally gave it an 8)

So, before you shit on it, give it a read!
Thank you, and see you next time.

Spoiler: ”Final Note”

----SPACER----
Attention this spoils the ending

Spoiler: ”ENDING SPOILERS”

If this story were to end in NTR, it would be quite a different story, and in fact it would be a worse story, as the setting and the characters would feel quite out-of-place, un-resolved, and blueballed if this were to end with the MC fully cucked.

Yet I remain firm in the believe that there is out-there a story, maybe more than one, which features heart-breaking NTR, and yet, still can be said to be good.
I find this knee-jerk reaction to NTR in all forms to be extreme, and sometimes so intense, that will make you miss on good things, or even miss-identify others.

There is a lot of crap NTR, that is to be sure; there is NTR that is only made in order to pander to NTR fans, that is to be sure. But NTR itself can’t be said to be evil, before it is actually applied, either well, or poorly, to a story.

If you want a NTR kind of story, that I also found quite good, but ended in NTR, unlike this one:

Allow me to recommend the erotic (pornographic) anime: “Maid Ane”; it has a beautiful aesthetic, amazing pacing, some pretty cool themes, and non-standard directing.
It is not your standard NTR story. However, I must admit, maybe I just like dream-like weirdly directed hentai, with convoluted plots and fever-dreamish settings; and most people wouldn’t understand what I find beautiful in “Maid Ane”; therefore making this a craptastic recommendation.

My friends have always told me I had weird an esoteric tastes in the arts.
But perhaps you, dear reader, who has come this far, will be a fellow travel companion, in this weird travels.

You can find “Maid Ane” yourself, since I may not personally guide you to it.
xoxo, see ya.

P.S → No, I generally do not enjoy NTR; I am not a NTR fan/fetishist. But if you are, of course, more power to you, my friend.

prob the only NRT i like...maybe because the MC isn't some softy soyboy who just cries about it, he has some of that Denji-levels of horniness and downbadness that i salute him for some reason

 

[KairakuSensei]

@Hitspark @beep_repair
Hi I didn’t read half of it because i have the attention span of a goldfish and the topic wasn’t super interesting to me but this was the most civil, in-depth, and well-thought-out discussion i have ever seen on NTR and you two are great
(i was 4x until i developed an overactive sense of empathy. I also did not notice how gay it was. Unimportant, but beep’s breakdown was neat and I’m in a sharing mood)

Have a great day

 

[Hitspark]

@Hitspark @beep_repair
Hi I didn’t read half of it because i have the attention span of a goldfish and the topic wasn’t super interesting to me but this was the most civil, in-depth, and well-thought-out discussion i have ever seen on NTR and you two are great
(i was 4x until i developed an overactive sense of empathy. I also did not notice how gay it was. Unimportant, but beep’s breakdown was neat and I’m in a sharing mood)

Have a great day

lol Thank you

 

[Liar]

I sometimes read NTR because it has some of the best artwork around in comparison to vanilla stuff.

Besides, don't think of yourself as the person being NTR'd, but the guy doing the NTR if helps you.

 

[KeyOfVoid]

Seconded. It's decent. While the art verges on bad, the characters & story pick up the slack. They're far enough outside the romcom norm to be interesting, but not out of "appealing & relatable" bounds. Plus it's a very quick read.

That said, I don't think it rises much above decent. And even its curiosity value as a saleable NTR variant is slight. Not to rain on the cuck parade...

The art of the serialized version is better!

 

[shadowtempestdemon]

don't care, she's a whore, beneath consideration

 

[exLightning]

Thanks to this post I have finally discovered how to search the NTR tag on this website, on the advanced search page for some reason it's under the "Sort By" drop down and misspelled as "Lowest Rating"... they should probably fix that.