Tensei Kizoku no Isekai Boukenroku: Jichou o Shiranai Kamigami no Shito - Vol. 12 Ch. 61

[AbuHajaar]

Child abuse? Literally two panels and not even a slipper

With that warning I was expecting something jarring like whipping and drawing blood or even sexual assault. But this? The MC has doled out more violent shit than this.

Edit: Also this manga literally has had slavery being a thing for quite a few chapters now, where's the trigger warning for that one? Way more triggering than smacking the younglings

 

[asdman]

Yeah MC really did us dirty here, not only he did jack shit after holding off the name drop. But also, did not put any measurements to stop the very same guy from breaking the promise. Like my man even a pinky promise had more authority than whatever we just read.

And it is getting tiring that not only in this very same arc we got the whole underestimating the MC and their plans backfiring.

If only they could have mixed up a bit. Before they left for the exchange program we literally had his catgirl friend from the shop get kidnapped and enslaved. Is this series just going to slog from now on?

I thought we had an evil god to deal with not just dumbass on dumbass action. The author could have at least shown us a part of the seal being lodged somewhere in this city or something.

 

[RhythmiC]

classic westerner defense

the only difference is we don't have school shootings where we're at and we don't have to force our kids to be homeschooled from fears of criminals who haven't been parented by their parents enough to actually be violent to our kin now do we?

To start with, I'm not a Westerner. And to clarify, the US doesn't represent the West. They're pretty unique as a country and culture, and they're certainly taking the lead towards the movie Idiocracy (great movie).
But you're using logical fallacies, such as whataboutism and strawman fallacies. It's pointless.

 

[WillLi]

Wait, what? It isn't my first language, so do please forgive me for mistakes, but I never claimed that physical punishment isn't violence, if that's what you're saying I claimed(?). I even stated that laying a hand on a child is illegal for good reason in many countries. As for physical punishments however, things such as forcing extra chores or doing situps or running laps and so on, wouldn't count as violence. However, acts of violence are pretty clear by themselves, such as hitting a child's body in any kind of way.

What I am saying is that physical punishment and violence ARE different. What makes it violence and not punishment is teh severity and intensity. A spanking or a 'smack' can be discipline or violence depending on how it's used. Treating physical discipline and violence as the same thing is not good for the future of people. People need to be aware that it's not about the type of discipline it's the severity.

I tried to make it as simple as possible, but this is a nuanced point I'm trying to make that might be difficult to convey if English is not your first language. I do not mean that as an insult it's just English nuance is hard to convey.

 

[Gudachiz]

To start with, I'm not a Westerner.

cool

And to clarify, the US doesn't represent the West.

it does

They're pretty unique as a country and culture, and they're certainly taking the lead towards the movie Idiocracy (great movie).

haven't seen the movie but will check it out thank you

But you're using logical fallacies, such as whataboutism and strawman fallacies. It's pointless.

doesn't change the fact that societies here that do allow spanking and a slap as a form of discipline still produce excellent people and yes there are always people who go too far when disciplining, but that's not as much as the people who don't, there are good parents and bad parents
like you can again twist it all you want, this still isn't abuse. it was a slap for a fuck up ONCE and from the looks of the story he's probably never done it to the kid
also no blood, no injuries, where's the abuse? no constant berating, no being hit numerous times

 

[Tsumi]

First of all, you claiming "will not respond to anything but" is more a reflection of what you yourself are limited to. It's falling into the world of research into psychology here, which I will not even pretend to know much about, but nobody advocates for violent acts, such as "spank or slap" to quote you. It's true that methods advocated for varies wildly, and some are more convoluted than others, but at the end of the day there's only research showing submissive behavior being learned and the lesson that using violence is a way to make someone stop. Which isn't a good lesson to learn, since it feeds into the spiral of violence begets more violence.
Keep in mind that you're literally advocating for physical violence to be used as a "learning tool".
As for my examples, those have a natural limit set by a child's stamina. And doing it repeatedly is still a physical reinforcement, as you claim is the only thing something some childs can respond to. And it teaches the habit of physical exercise.

Did I say all kids? No, I said some kids, because everyone is wired differently in the head and claiming everyone is wired the same and will react the same way to positive and negative stimuli is false.

Studies can have bias and being able to read between the lines is important. That's why peer review is extremely important as well as it can point out flaws and limitations in the methodology. This is especially true of psychology where the human mind is just so complicated. For every non-peer reviewed study claiming one thing, you can probably find a non-peer reviewed study claiming the opposite.

Enforcing the learning of submission yet continuing the cycle of violence? There's a logical fallacy there. If one was made to be submissive, why would they then be violent, an act of dominance?

Natural limit? You do realize that being constantly pushed to the limit without giving the body time to repair will only result in destruction of the body, right? This form of abuse would be harder to recognize than many others.

Any form of punishment can be turned into abuse when misused, whether it's pain, labor, confinement, etc. Just look up Ruby Franke. Most of her 'punishments' were non-violent yet extremely abusive.

 

[Gudachiz]

Soon.

Spoiler: Eventual outcome

In this arc Corgino will get backed into a corner, become Aaron’s apostle, go on a rampage, brag to Cain, realize Cain is also an apostle, and get his ass handed to him.

does he get beaten to a pulp? slowly i mean

 

[RhythmiC]

Enforcing the learning of submission yet continuing the cycle of violence? There's a logical fallacy there. If one was made to be submissive, why would they then be violent, an act of dominance?

My bad, I should've included that it teaches submission to authority. Not respecting authority, but rather submitting to authority. As well as exerting authority to then expect submission to that authority. Or in other words, it makes the child submit to violence to then expect others to submit to the child's violence when the child mimics that behavior, which is then perpetuated throughout their life.

Did I say all kids? No, I said some kids, because everyone is wired differently in the head and claiming everyone is wired the same and will react the same way to positive and negative stimuli is false.

I never said you said all kids. I explained how physical reinforcement doesn't need to include violence, and also how there are more alternatives to choose from beyond what you yourself are limited to when it comes to mental discplination.

Natural limit? You do realize that being constantly pushed to the limit without giving the body time to repair will only result in destruction of the body, right? This form of abuse would be harder to recognize than many others.

You do realise that a child's body repairs itself from both wounds and exercise a lot faster than adults, right? As for the limit, it's literally set by their own stamina. Doesn't mean such a physical reinforcement would need to be pushed that far, nor that it should be pushed that far. But it's a limit that the adult can't force them to push past.

Any form of punishment can be turned into abuse when misused, whether it's pain, labor, confinement, etc. Just look up Ruby Franke. Most of her 'punishments' were non-violent yet extremely abusive.

I never claimed abuse only comes in one form. Just figured people in this thread wouldn't be able to keep up with mental abuse as a concept.

 

[Kefrayba]

In this case, I read that the kid's behavior was the result of his father's behavior. I feel the father is more to blame than the child.

It's tough to wait now that we caught up with the raw.

 

[Gudachiz]

My bad, I should've included that it teaches submission to authority. Not respecting authority, but rather submitting to authority. As well as exerting authority to then expect submission to that authority. Or in other words, it makes the child submit to violence to then expect others to submit to the child's violence when the child mimics that behavior, which is then perpetuated throughout their life.

that's not really the case tho is it?
Asian culture always had spanking as a form of discipline and you're mixing "violence" and "discipline" an asshole parent would just spank without telling them what they did wrong and where they fucked up or wouldn't even bother asking them why do they think they were spanked and if they get it wrong wouldn't correct them and wouldn't point what it is exactly.
a good parent, spanks their kid, tells them what they did wrong and the consequences of their actions along with why they shouldn't do it again

these 2 are never the same
there is ALWAYS a proper way to spank your kid and an ample amount of force necessary to discipline a kid, not everything is black and white and is as excessive as you think
also again there's still the fact that here, in Asia, this is done to a large majority of us and a large chunk of people aren't school shooters or criminals that pass that onto others
majority of crime in the world is caused by the economy being too hard and them thinking there's no other way to get out of the dump they're in, not because of parents disciplinining their kids, sure there are some kids that probably grow up to pass pain to others because they were abused, that's not the same as the people disciplined properly by their parents by way of spanking.

 

[RWorld]

Child abuse? Asian parents would call this disciplining a brat on a bad night.

 

[RhythmiC]

that's not really the case tho is it?
Asian culture always had spanking as a form of discipline and you're mixing "violence" and "discipline" an asshole parent would just spank without telling them what they did wrong and where they fucked up or wouldn't even bother asking them why do they think they were spanked and if they get it wrong wouldn't correct them and wouldn't point what it is exactly.
a good parent, spanks their kid, tells them what they did wrong and the consequences of their actions along with why they shouldn't do it again

these 2 are never the same
there is ALWAYS a proper way to spank your kid and an ample amount of force necessary to discipline a kid, not everything is black and white and is as excessive as you think
also again there's still the fact that here, in Asia, this is done to a large majority of us and a large chunk of people aren't school shooters or criminals that pass that onto others
majority of crime in the world is caused by the economy being too hard and them thinking there's no other way to get out of the dump they're in, not because of parents disciplinining their kids, sure there are some kids that probably grow up to pass pain to others because they were abused, that's not the same as the people disciplined properly by their parents by way of spanking.

Again, more whataboutism, strawman, and the presumption that the US represents everyone...
As for your real counterarguments, which does not include those logical fallacies, those are already covered in replies to Tsumi.
But to add something to it, statistics varies greatly everywhere. It's why that can't be covered solely from a sociological standpoint, and needs the micro-scale research as well.

 

[Gudachiz]

Again, more whataboutism, strawman, and the presumption that the US represents everyone...

they pretty much do, i mean majority of them are on the net at least in the english speaking side of things.
am i ignoring the rest of the world? yes because the rest of the world has their own modes of discipline that works for them without being overly strict about one or the other
and its not a strawman, i'm asian, i know exactly what the hell i'm talking about. I've been raised that way and so have my peers. we all turned out fine
you can keep insisting that there are people being disciplined physically that ends up in them passing it onto others but that really just means they were abused now wouldn't it?

As for your real counterarguments, which does not include those logical fallacies, those are already covered in replies to Tsumi.
But to add something to it, statistics varies greatly everywhere. It's why that can't be covered solely from a sociological standpoint, and needs the micro-scale research as well.

no need for research on it, the fact remains, you don't have school shooters in asia or cases of people being massively bullied a lot in asia. this isn't rocket science, you don't need further studies to just look at what's happening in the world at large.

 

[RhythmiC]

you don't have school shooters in asia

Google it. I don't mean Asia got school shootings, it's more that pretty much the world doesn't have school shootings, or very few school shootings, compared to the US. It's a uniquely US problem. Yet you're acting like that somehow represents other countries.

 

[Gudachiz]

You do realise that a child's body repairs itself from both wounds and exercise a lot faster than adults, right? As for the limit, it's literally set by their own stamina. Doesn't mean such a physical reinforcement would need to be pushed that far, nor that it should be pushed that far. But it's a limit that the adult can't force them to push past.

no one's forcing anyone to push past any limit tho, do you even know what disciplining people by way of spanking is? you spank them once, tell them what they did wrong, why its wrong and why it shouldn't be done again, they do it again, you spank them again, explain and then if that doesn't work, remove a priviledge they have like less time playing a game, you mix and match forms of discipline when one doesn't work

. Just figured people in this thread wouldn't be able to keep up with mental abuse as a concept.

mental abuse is another thing, a proper parent wouldn't even be able to give that if they disciplined their kid the right way and explained the cause and effect of their actions and only does it when its necessary, in the fictional plot line we have it absolutely was neceessary to slap him in the face, they were about to lose their livelihood and position had cain not forgiven them

 

[Gudachiz]

Google it. I don't mean Asia got school shootings, it's more that pretty much the world doesn't have school shootings, or very few school shootings, compared to the US. It's a uniquely US problem. Yet you're acting like that somehow represents other countries.

it doesn't, but our kids aren't doing outright crimes and then posting it on social media, which isn't a US thing only. this is pretty much a problem the west is majorly dealing with and i believe its because of parents who don't know how to discipline their kids, one way or the other, majority of parents don't even talk to their kids these days, they just leave them alone to do their thing. Then the kids get into crazy trends like those tidepod things or stupid challenges on social media that spread in most of the western world

 

[WillLi]

@Gudachiz English isn't their first language, it's gonna be a very long back and forward to try and explain this there are a bunch of misunderstandings going back and forward between you two's post.

 

[RhythmiC]

they were about to lose their livelihood and position had cain not forgiven them

I'm tired of replying to everything you say, since pretty much all of it has an answer to it already given previously. But to quit this meaningless back-and-forth, that isn't what happened in the chapter. It's more that the apology prevented war to be caused by it, in reference to the diplomatic standings of noble vs. noble. They already outlined it in the chapter, so I hope this doesn't count as a spoiler since it can be deduced from what was said anyway, but he still loses his position in parliament and is forced to pay a reparation fee.
It was never explained in neither this chapter nor in the WN how that upcoming plot would fix his problem, and, well.. it won't.

 

[Gudachiz]

@Gudachiz English isn't their first language, it's gonna be a very long back and forward to try and explain this there are a bunch of misunderstandings going back and forward between you two's post.

that makes sense

 

[Gudachiz]

I'm tired of replying to everything you say, since pretty much all of it has an answer to it already given previously.

perfectly fine with that if that's what you think, you don't have to

But to quit this meaningless back-and-forth, that isn't what happened in the chapter. It's more that the apology prevented war to be caused by it, in reference to the diplomatic standings of noble vs. noble. They already outlined it in the chapter, so I hope this doesn't count as a spoiler since it can be deduced from what was said anyway, but he still loses his position in parliament and is forced to pay a reparation fee.
It was never explained in neither this chapter nor in the WN how that upcoming plot would fix his problem, and, well.. it won't.

okay that makes sense