Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken - Vol. 13 Ch. 61 - Punishment of the Witch

[GreyZone]

@Yautja
Utter non-sense. The plot diverges strongly. The main antagonist from the WN got very different goals and motivations and might possibly not even be the main antagonist in the LN version. There is an entire new storyline added to give a credible threat to Western Nations by adding a certain group of characters that didn't exist in the WN. All your complains about "rushed content" don't apply for the LN version, rather, at this point people actually complain that there is too much dialogue and not enough action, but Slime is actually not all that action-heavy to begin with.

No consequences? Maybe not in a material sense, but there there are plenty consequences. Just because they aren't of the "tragic loss type" doesn't mean they are excluded.

As for the manga's pace, I don't get what you are saying at all. The pace is good, perhaps you are just influenced by the monthly release schedule and a source material that obviously wasn't designed with that in mind.


You "AT"ed the wrong individual, @Kaldrak

 

[Yautja]

@Kaldrak
I take it that was meant for me.

Ainz is joke character, like Saitama. Everyone loves him because they came from a game and are programmed to do so. It's literally a running joke throughout every single chapter, episode and volume of the series that Ainz doesn't deserve any of the adoration he gets.

Yea, Rimiru is just magically charismatic and gave them power. So much better.

Considering that's your view of the Overlord series and don't get that Ainz is a joke character, I don't think you've paid much attention to it and are worth having this discussion with. Lizard arc, Climb & Brain side stories, Ainz Hero version, Theocracy snap shots, and so on are exactly World Building. You'd have to be a special kind of stupid to suggest Overlord does bad world building, let alone doesn't do it at all.

Yea, Overlord does both. And no, they're not two completely different things. Nation building is kind of a part of world building, when in fiction. And when referring to fiction, "nation building" isn't really a thing. You don't just build nations, moron, you build a world. Lecturing me about my reading comprehension when your dumbass doesn't know that they're not two completely different things and you don't do nation building alone in a fictional world is hilarious.

@GreyZone
Yea, and that doesn't change any of the complaints. As for Rushed content, that is a single complaint in a quote I listed. Good job ignoring all the other ones. As for strong divergence, I've read up to Vol 8, all of the WN and the anime. So far, it's not "strongly diverging". The draft / final version analogy stands. And that's the consensus I see in the subreddit when googling differences between the two.

"MaYbE nOT iN a MATERiaL senSe"
Bulllll shit. The only real consequences are temporary and usually disappear shortly after. Kinda like insane Shion.

What are you talking about? I didn't say pace once. Are you even reading my comments?

 

[Kaldrak]

@GreyZone

Fixed. Wish there was just a 'reply' button I could click.

@Yautja
Kinda dense about what 'world building' and 'nation building' mean, I take it? Nation building can be a part of world building, but isn't necessarily. You need to actually oh, I don't know, build a nation to have nation building. Overlord has NO nation building. Nazerick is well established at the beginning of it. It's just that no one else knows they exist. Their conquest of the world could be described as empire building, I suppose, but it's far more interesting watching something built from scratch like Tempest, than an unstoppable power fantasy dungeon plunked straight into another world to rape and pillage the inhabitants. Well, at least for me, anyways.

As far as Ainz being a joke character, well, that's a great defense of bad writing. He's not treated as a joke by the author, the characters, or the world he's in, so no, he's quite simply not a joke character. He's an edgy teen's masturbatory self insert. You like him. I don't. End of story.

The side stories in Overlord are the most interesting part of the series for me. Too bad I already know how everything is going to work out, once I realize who is or isn't running up against Nazerick and Ainz. Kinda makes reading it redundant.

 

[Yautja]

@Kaldrak
Okay, you're just an idiot it seems. You don't get Nation Building alone in fiction. It's a part of world building. I linked the definitions of the two, Nation building and world building, for a reason. And holy shit, you liar, Overlord has nation building. Are you high? What do you think the Slane Theocracy is? Or the Re-Estize Kingdom? Or the Baharuth Empire? Or THE SORCERER KINGDOM is?
You can have world building without nation building. You cannot have nation building with out world building, because hey, a nation is a part of the world. Nation Building is ALWAYS a part of world building.
Does your dumbass actually think when in fiction Nation Building literally means building a nation from scratch in the story instead of telling the history of an existing nation in the story? Rhetorical question since you literally say that. You're just using words without knowing what they mean it seems. When in fiction, Nation Building (which isn't even a term used in fiction like world building) is a part of world building that refers to constructing the history and cultures of nations. When used in real life, it refers to rebuilding nations. Nation building does not mean making a country from scratch.

Oh my god. You are impressively stupid. You're calling it bad writing because they don't have a reason to like or admire him and that it being a joke doesn't excuse it. That makes no fucking sense. That's literally the joke. Everyone rationalizes what he does as 4D chess when he's in reality a normal guy stumbling along who got lucky. It 100% is treated a joke by the author, as indicated when Ainz talks to himself, and it can't be treated as a joke by the characters OTHERWISE THE JOKE WOULD NOT WORK. Yea, you 100% have not watched the anime, read the manga or the LN, or are lying out your fucking ass. Considering you're claiming you read the side stories, you should know about the Sorcerer Kingdom and that is nation building in a literal sense as you said you wanted. So I'm going with you're lying out your ass and don't even know what you're talking about.

Here's a google search of what nation building is, since your dumbass is so adamant. Notice how every fucking result has the word "world building" in it and none of them have the word "nation building"?

 

[GreyZone]

@Yautja
The subreddit has plenty of misinformation. Escpacially in regards to outright false "spoilers". The only thing that's even worse is the TenSura wiki as it is right now. And what the hell is "insane Shion"? There is no such plot point. You claim that you read WN and LN, but even though I myself haven't read the WN for a while, I easily noticed the huge differences between WN and LN when I read the LN. Many of which are mutually exclusive and cannot be brought together again. And no one cares about a sub-reddit consensus. The Discord consensus, among which the translator and editors of the FanTL group for the LN agree with my view on the matter. Did you actually read the LN? Or did you "read" a summary? Want a refresher? I'll tell you a few keywords. If you still don't remember how much they diverge from each other then I'll really have to wonder if you didn't just lie about reading the LN:
"Coffin"
"Mind Control"
"Message to the Church"
"Direct Agent"
"Seven Celestial Sages"
"Body Double"
"World Conquest vs World Destruction"

As for consequences... really? You don't really give any reason why you want "long-term negative consequences" to begin with. This isn't a tragedy, so it's not neccessary, unless you want to have "consequences for the sake of having consequences", which is actually worse than having no consequences at all. I'd also argue that having some sort of major loss portrayed as some sort of motivation is a horrible cliché not even worth entertaining. And if it's just about wanting the MC to experience failure there there are things like the Dwargon speech or the negotiations with Blumund already.

 

[Kaldrak]

@Yautja
In order for it to be a joke it should be oh...I dunno, funny? Ple Ple Pliades was funny. Overlord isn't. So...bad comedy? I read the WN and the LN, btw. It's just garbage writing. An edgy high schooler's idea of what makes an OP protagonist cool isn't my idea of a good time, with that wide eyed fascination with sex and violence that some of them get.

So...yeah.

You seem real tense, btw. I never said jack shit about Overlord's world building. You took the phrase I used, pretended I meant something else, and then have been arguing with intense concentration about it, on a point I don't really care about.

From your own links: "Nation-building is constructing or structuring a national identity using the power of the state." "Worldbuilding is the process of constructing an imaginary world, sometimes associated with a whole fictional universe."

To make it abundantly clear, I was NOT talking about Overlord's worldbuilding. I was mentioning the fact that I liked the nation building in Slime, which I found interesting. The nations you talk about in Overlord are already well established before the start of the story, ergo they don't actually have to be built up. I do find your interpretations of these terms amusing though, so...please continue arguing past me.

Edit: Also your search was for 'fictional' nation building. That gets you quite a different search result from just nation building, because the first result when you google the phrase nation building is literally this: "The creation or development of a nation, especially one that has recently become independent."

You're funny. ^_^

 

[Yautja]

@GreyZone
Shion post revival. Label her how you want.

I have and I do notice the differences, but they're not insane plot differences like you seem to imply. Maybe my memory is shotty, which it is, but I remember the story is largely the same. Yes there are a lot of differences but you seem to be making it seem like the entire series has been rewritteen. And if no one cares about the sub-reddit consensus, I don't see why the discord consensus matters.

Anyways, IDK why you're so focused on this. None of my complaints hedged on the WN or the plot differences and I challenge you to point out where they do. The only time I used the WN could have easily been substituted with the LN.

The point is if you're going to imply that something serious is happening or going to happen, and there could or will be some serious consequences, you don't immediately flip it on its fucking head. Shion dying, this heart bullshit this chapter, etc. If you're going to have some great big conflict and display it in a serious manner, imply consequences and nothing happens, that's fucking bad. If the adventures who went into Nazerick in Overlord all left unscathed, I'd be fucking furious because of how everyone acts about invaders, outsiders, etc. If the Orc King never died, that'd be an egregious example. And generally, there are very few consequences when there certainly should be.

@Kaldrak

In order for it to be a joke it should be oh...I dunno, funny? Ple Ple Pliades was funny. Overlord isn't. So...bad comedy?

So you're turning "I don't think this is funny" into "this writing is bad". Good to know.

I read the WN and the LN, btw.

Oh, you read the LN and WN? Now I know you're a liar. Sorcerer Kingdom. That fits your incorrect definition of nation building. Something you claimed Overlord doesn't do.

You took the phrase I used, pretended I meant something else, and then have been arguing with intense concentration about it, on a point I don't really care about.

No, you said Nation Building, which isn't really a term used in fiction, and used it incorrectly and postulated the incorrect fact that you can have nation building without world building. I didn't misunderstand anything, I pointed out how you were wrong in using the words as you did. I'm not the one pretending anything, you are.

From your own links: "Nation-building is constructing or structuring a national identity using the power of the state." "Worldbuilding is the process of constructing an imaginary world, sometimes associated with a whole fictional universe."

Yea, notice how it says state right there. You wanna know what you need for a state to exist? A nation. And you wanna know what that term is used in relation to? Real world nation building. Fictional Nation Building, which is not a stand alone term and is a part of world building, is not the same thing.
Noticed how world building doesn't mean literally building a world from scratch? Same shit applies to nation building.

The nations you talk about in Overlord are already well established before the start of the story, ergo they don't actually have to be built up.

Then you A) haven't read Overlord and lied as I already established and B) don't know what nation building means. If world building doesn't mean building a world from scratch, neither does nation building.

I do find your interpretations of these terms amusing though, so...please continue arguing past me.

Oh, my interpretations? You mean the definitions I linked? You just used a word wrong and are trying to pretend I misunderstood when you didn't know what the words you used meant. Nation building in the real world certainly doesn't mean what you implied. Nation building in fiction, which isn't a term, doesn't mean what you implied. Considering world building means constructing an imaginary world and all it's elements into a cohesive universe, the same has to apply to nation building. And since a fictional nation is a part of a fictional world, you cannot have nation building without also having world building. Something you incorrectly claimed you could.

You said you liked Slime better because it does nation building and Overlord doesn't. Overlord does do nation building, and nation building is a part of world building. Both of which Overlord is renowned for. Claiming Overlord's doesn't do nation building is a lie. Claiming Nation Building means literally building a country from scratch is also a lie considering the term what the term world building means. Nation building is not an official term in regards to fiction. Nation building is logically and explicitly a part world building, so if you're going to pull out nation building from world building, it follows that it follows the same rules. And when used in regards to real life, it also doesn't mean building a country from scratch.

Here's a google search, again, of what nation building is, since your dumbass is so adamant and ignored it. Again. Notice how every fucking result has the word "world building" in it and none of them have or use the word "nation building" as you try to assert it?

How bout you please continuing arguing past me.
Link a definition of Nation Building, in relation to fiction, that states it has to build from scratch. Link a definition of world building which states a world is built from scratch. Tell me about how Overlord doesn't nation build when the sorcerer kingdom exists.
You are so full of shit.

 

[GreyZone]

@Yautja
I was refering to your little "poem"
"Take all the world building and conquering,
and take away the schemes and dialog,
and speed everything up by 10 fold,
and you'll have Tensei shitara Slime Datta Ken."
schemes+dialog, as well as speed. I have disproven those for anything but the WN, which was an unfair comparison to begin with.

 

[Kaldrak]

@Yautja
Someone missed my edit so: Also your search was for 'fictional' nation building. That gets you quite a different search result from just nation building, because the first result when you google the phrase nation building is literally this: "The creation or development of a nation, especially one that has recently become independent."

You're funny. ^_^

Now, I will admit to one thing. I didn't read very far into the Overlord WN or LN, as they are both written poorly with unfortunate, excruciating detail (horrible, nonstop exposition, poor/nonexistent character motivations/insane 'plans' that don't make any damn sense, and a roster of completely unlikable idiots). So you got me there.

The rest of your post is yawn inducing TLDR.

 

[Yautja]

@GreyZone
So you're just in a habit of not reading or misreading it seems. Since I've never bitched multiple times about it being rushed, or the manga having bad pace and I didn't write that "poem". Go reread that quote.

And no, you sure haven't and it isn't unfair. You've just overly focused on a misunderstanding on your part and ignored most of what I originally said. The plot changes, while they do improve / reduce some of them, those complaints still stand. The world building especially, schemes and dialogue, are of worse quality when compared to Overlord. None of that somehow shows me comparing the Overlord series to this is unfair.

That nightmare flow chart, while it probably needs to be tweaked is still relevant, you never sated the consequence point, nor how someone else bitching about Overlord having bad tension and inferior World building is ridiculous. Nor how the drama is so easily and borderline deus ex machina resolved. How this manga fails at subverting expectations or that, similarly to the lack of consequences, is far too happy go lucky.

The other dude is a straight up liar, and you just don't read what you're responding to very well it seems. It seems you and I are far too disconnected.

@Kaldrak
Yea, because you're referring to fictional stories. It's almost like the context of usage of a word makes it mean different things. Regardless, your usage of the word is still wrong, notice how even in that quote it say "has recently become independent". You know what that means? The nation already existed, it's just got a new identity. Nation building does not mean building a country from scratch, as is done in this series or as you tried to assert it. And all of these definitions prove that. As does the definition of world building when the word is used in a fictional.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/nation-building
https://www.definitions.net/definition/nation-building
https://www.davemanuel.com/investor-dictionary/nation-building/

Wow. What I got is you being a liar. What I got is you insulting a series in an attempt to distract from the fact that you were talking out your ass since the first comment and have literally no ground to stand on. You claimed to know something, you clearly don't. You used a word meaning something it clearly doesn't. And you've just admitted it and ended with a generic quipy insult to try and make it seem like you're right. Bravo.

 

[Kaldrak]

@Yautja
You're BAD at this...but keep going. I find it terribly amusing.

 

[Yautja]

@Kaldrak
Textbook ad hominem. Those definitions prove you wrong and you admit to lying so now you go "lul u bad". I'll wait for you to find a current definition which states nation building refers to building a country from scratch.

 

[Kaldrak]

@Yautja
You throw out a million insults of your own at me, and all I've said is you're bad at arguing, and then YOU claim I'm doing an 'ad hominem.'

Dude...duuuude. Like, wow. You're spectacularly unselfaware. Here you go. I think you need this:

 

[Yautja]

@Kaldrak
Still waiting for that definition.

An ad hominem is when you insult someone instead of addressing their point. I've addressed your points everytime and sometimes boxed it up nicely an insult when you were being especially stupid. So no, I haven't whereas you have. That's why I said something about an ad hominem in regards to your previous comment, not the one before that saying stuff about being a "tl;dr".

 

[Kaldrak]

@Yautja
You bore me.

Your entire argument has been a "motte and bailey" fallacy. Once you realized that what I meant by nation building wasn't what you meant, then you decided to goalpost shift into an 'argumentum ad dictionarium' fallacy. What you meant by nation building was not what I meant, and you went on at length about worldbuilding, which I wasn't even originally talking about. Because you thought I was talking about something I wasn't.

So, since you're being a pedantic little pussy about everything, I will restate my point, such as it was originally, so you can clearly understand me. When I use the phrase, 'nation building' yes, I mean it literally. E. fucking G. I LIKE the 'nation building' (building a nation from scratch) in Slime, which makes it interesting to me. I make no claims one way or another about the 'worldbuilding' (background work, characters/places/etc.) in Overlord, other than that I think the writing is trash and I don't like any of the characters in it.

Now, does that satisfy you, or do you really want to just point at me and completely misunderstand what I'm trying to say, AGAIN, and go 'nahnahnahnah not liiiistening! You're using the phrase wrong! Nanananananaaahhhh! Admit I'm right about this which has absolutely nothing to do with either Overlord or Slime but I'm riiiiiiiigghhttttt!!!!!!

Which is what you've BEEN doing this whole time.

 

[Yautja]

@Kaldrak
Oh you want to play that game? How bout I point out how you lied out your ass about something you never read. You claimed Overlord had no "nation building" when it 100% did in both your definition and the correct one. I wonder what fallacy that falls under? Or how bout I point out that your entire argument is an ambiguity fallacy considering your misleading and incorrect usage of the word? If you're going to bitch about fallacies, don't be the source of them. You're the one who made shit difficult by
A) Lying and saying Overlord doesn't do "Nation Building"
B) Claim Overlord is "strip mining the world" instead of nation building.
C) Claiming world building can be a part of nation building and further muddying the waters.
D) Use a personal and incorrect definition of a word.
If you talk about say Computer Science and I start talking about programming, you don't bitch at me for moving goal posts when you really meant to talk about doing chemistry on a computer. That's not me using a fallacy, it's you using a fallacy and being misleading or wrong and blaming me for it.

You just don't get, do you? The nation building "you meant" doesn't exist. Nation building is an actual term and you used it wrong. I can't blame you for misunderstanding me if I say "global warming" in reference to globes being hot or some shit or pretend that's an acceptable definition. So if you're going to blame anyone for "shift goal posts" or misunderstandings, it's 100% your fault for using an existing term in an incorrect fashion. What I meant by nation building is the actual definition of the word and the closest relevant definition through world building. If you're going to bitch about me "shifting" my argument, maybe clarify that you're using a term in a manner that it isn't used in. Not that it matters in this case considering even with your original meaning, you're still fucking wrong because your argument rests on the fact that you said Overlord doesn't do Nation Building.

Still waiting for that definition. Because hey, it proves my point and shows that your usage of the term was wrong and any misunderstands or confusion is your fucking fault.

 

[Baxkill]

haha manga amarite fellas

 

[Kojirremer]

Wow, a whole page taken by three people internet-arguing.

 

[hokujin]

I get the feeling like this part was handled a lot better in the WN. I don't recall the witch ever talking to Rimuru about her past.

 

[Kayriel]

I find it funny that there's folks literally talking about what's going to be happening next but I'm the one who got hit with a spoiler warning for making a joke.