The Politics Megathread

[immortalartisan]

@tamerlane I apologize I described trump a mix of both radical left and right beliefs not you. Your just someone who leans to the right maybe voted for some slightly shifty people but you aren’t anywhere near the far right or left spectrum. Also at this point I just hop into the political mega thread to throw the politics version of a paper ball and disappear again.

 

[Hornyturtle]

Viewing politics as a spectrum is bad, each individual policy should be judged on it's own merrits. Tying yourself to a label is just limiting your options of thought. The moment you try and put a label on who you're talking to is the moment you stop caring about the actual issue up for discussion.

The world is far too shit for one train of thought to always be right. Just because something works one day, doesn't mean it will always work

 

[M0NST3R]

Strictly speaking what policies do we think would help to make members of Congress less shit in general?

Personally I feel that requiring them to permanently divest themselves from all financial interests in order to become a Congressional Representative would be a solid start but I also feel that requiring all Representatives to have every interaction recorded for public release (with appropriate FOIA exemptions applied, just because I think the folks in Congress have no Privacy rights doesn't mean that everyone around them loses them) in order to provide zero cover should Representatives attempt to try and take any unethical action.

Removing their ability to pass along information that to anyone else would qualify as insider trading would also be a nice step as well.

 

[wowfucktron]

@m0nst3r
>full disclosure of financial records
Yeah, I don’t think any Congressmen will ever allow that to pass.

All of them benefit from insider trading. Not one of them is exempt from doing this.

You’d have an easier time resurrecting a corpse than clamping down on that.

>censorship of congressmen in regards to information transferals

The military already comes up with outlandishly extreme ways to obfuscate military finances.

We would just see the Enigma code 2.0 if Congress ever allowed this to pass. They’d vote for this mainly to prevent citizens from figuring out how they’re going to get fucked over next

Realistically speaking all you need to do is strip Congress of their healthcare, strip their private security beyond a single personal bodyguard and force them to do about four months worth of local community service a year.

Force them to hire the bodyguard from their own community, preferably a veteran.

They’ll really develop of sense of fealty to their constituents if they have to work alongside them, feel less secure in their safety and be denied access to government healthcare.

 

[readingsit]

@Hornyturtle
the political spectrum is just a simplification of the spectrums you use to make decisions on each issue
harm/help spectrum
cost/profit spectrum
freedom/privilege spectrum
etc
in order to recognize a politician that you do or do not want to vote for the spectrum is helpful since you can listen to where they claim to be and then look at their actions and see if that fits. if it doesnt and you find that they are too far left or right of where they claimed to be that might change your opinion on whether you want to vote for them
each issue falls on the spectrum in a certain place and by averaging how the politician votes on the issue can indicates his true position

@M0NST3R
the main problem with congress is the party of small government either sits around and does nothing or occasionally signs omnibus crap sandwiches when in power and the party of large government forces through garbage or does nothing while the executive writes law via executive fiat.
imo how one would fix this is:
1: return the voting rules to a privileged instead of a right to minimize uneducated voters(imo 'must own land to vote')
2: return the senate from a popular vote to a vote by state senate, increasing the importance of state elections
3: bring back Senate filibuster rules that were changed years ago so compromise is needed to get anything done
4: limit the amount of pages a law can be so that only one issue is voted on at a time instead of the stupid omnibus garbo
5: limit the power of executive orders

this would amke legislators more dependent of the voters who actually pay attention to politics, gives people more reason to pay attention to state elections, makes the senate have to compromise more, ends crap-sandwiches, and finally makes the executive stop writing laws

 

[wowfucktron]

@readingsit

return the voting rules to a privileged instead of a right to minimize uneducated voters(imo 'must own land to vote')

God...I can already imagine the headlines...

 

[Kaldrak]

@M0NST3R

Strictly speaking what policies do we think would help to make members of Congress less shit in general?

Publicly funded elections, elimination of PAC's/Super PAC's, and strict donation caps would go a long way towards helping our elected officials actually serve us instead of their own interests. If I had my way, I'd also have a ten year ban on elected officials going to work for lobbying companies after they've left office. One of the only decent things Trump did, (the five year ban) and he reversed it right before he left as a farewell 'fuck you' to the rest of us for not voting for him.

And while I'm at it I want a damn pony and a billion dollars, cause there's no way in fuck any of that is going to happen unless our current politicians are all kicked out of office (except for Bernie and a couple others, maybe) and replaced with people who didn't get rich off of the current system.

@readingsit The fact that you think the GOP is the 'party of small government' is goddamned hilarious, mate. They just say that shit to pander to you.

 

[readingsit]

@wowfucktron

extreme ways to obfuscate military finances

you mean on how much military members are paid? because theres a good reason behind that. but if you mean publicly available info on how much money is spent on the military that was pretty easy for me to look up. 676B for defense and 661B for non defense in 2019

God...I can already imagine the headlines...

yeah we're just talking about what would fix it not what will be done :/

@Kaldrak

except for Bernie

ha! yeah because he has been so consistent in his policy beliefs

The fact that you think the GOP is the 'party of small government' is goddamned hilarious, mate. They just say that shit to pander to you.

there are 2 parties and of the 2 the only one that has ever even tried to shrink the government is the GOP. they may not be very good at it but none the less they fit the bill

 

[wowfucktron]

@kaldrak

unless our current politicians are all kicked out of office (except for Bernie and a couple others, maybe)

Either get rid of them all or don’t bother. Playing favorites is stupid, all politicians are cut from the same cloth.

The fact that you immediately brought up Bernie for who you want to keep is allowing me to picture the “others” quite vividly.

replaced with people who didn't get rich off of the current system.

You’ll need robots if the plan is to root out any and all corruption...

The only reason people run for office is money. That’s it. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

he reversed it right before he left as a farewell 'fuck you' to the rest of us for not voting for him.

Trump reversed the ban most likely because he knew it was going to be done anyways. TDS runs deep and some people want to remove his animal abuse felony bill only because he was the one who signed it into law.

He’s in a lose-lose situation where anything and everything will be used against him regardless of whether he was involved or not. I don’t blame him for being frustrated and just giving everyone a giant “fuck you” on the way out.

 

[Dr_siegbert_dirk]

@Kaldrak

except for Bernie

people who didn't get rich off of the current system

...lol

 

[readingsit]

@wowfucktron

The only reason people run for office is money. That’s it. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

Power is indeed a factor dont forget that.

but to be fair DT actually lost money while in office:

Spoiler

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/09/politics/forbes-400-donald-trump-wealth/index.html

but saying that he will make that money back after he has left would be a good argument

 

[Kaldrak]

@readingsit @wowfucktron

I mentioned Bernie because he was the only one I could think of offhand who would likely support such a plan. Tell me, do you think anyone else ANYWHERE would? Cause I don't. This isn't about 'playing favorites' it's about policy positions.

@Dr_siegbert_dirk Bernie made a bunch of money selling his book. I have a friend richer than he is and he's not even a politician.

Trump reversed the ban most likely because he knew it was going to be done anyways. TDS runs deep and some people want to remove his animal abuse felony bill only because he was the one who signed it into law.

He’s in a lose-lose situation where anything and everything will be used against him regardless of whether he was involved or not. I don’t blame him for being frustrated and just giving everyone a giant “fuck you” on the way out.

There is really one main group that has any condition that could be described as 'Trump Derangement Syndrome' and it's his followers. It's the derangement that the man was ever fit for the office in the first place. And as far as I can tell, almost everyone dogpiling me here suffers from it.

You're not...entirely incorrect about what some of the more rabid anti Trumpers would do, but it doesn't excuse the action. Oh, they are going to reverse this anyway, might as well do it myself, is just plain stupid and short sighted.

 

[wowfucktron]

@kaldrak
I never said the man was justified, I only stated that I just understood his logic or lack thereof.

It's the derangement that the man was ever fit for the office in the first place.

Trump's a populist. Bernie Sanders is one too.
Populists are destructive because their followers get all huffy and puffy over any and all criticism towards their "god." They also rely on emotional fervor and are destructive in the long run in terms of damages done to systems once they become disenfranchised.
Populists aren't fit for office because their bases are idiots who only act on anger. The candidates themselves also thrive off of whipping people into frenzies over stupid shit.

And as far as I can tell, almost everyone dogpiling me here suffers from it.

>dogpiling
You said we'd

spar again

and now you can't keep it up from multiple angles? Weak. I do this from your POV on twitter and r/politics all the time.
>you voted for Mr. T
kek, I didn't even cast my ballot this election. Every candidate this country has ever put forward since I could vote again (2009) has been shit.
>buh buh you aren't critical of trump, that means you love him
Just because I can understand his logic doesn't mean I worship him or support him beyond finding him and his antics amusing.
The man has ideas just like any other person on this shithole of a planet. Some of his ideas are good and some of his ideas aren't. Just like how both of us have ideas that are good and bad. However, I love going out of my way to defend/shield people who are under fire from every avenue, at least from my perspective, because its a fun game in testing my patience.
>but you defend him
meh, its fun riling up the antis, they don't even realise how much of a mirror they are in regards to their whining about A Pimp Named Donnie T.

inb4 >you're a professional "Russian troll," aren't you?
Yes. And?

 

[Kaldrak]

@wowfucktron You wanna stretch from all that asspulling you just did?

 

[wowfucktron]

@kaldrak
Oh no guys...I'm cornered because someone's too lazy to sift through the thread to go find every post of mine corroborating what I have just said. Whatever shall I do? Roll over and admit defeat because "the good guys" say to?

Sure, believe what you want. I stand by my principles: I'm not going to force you to change your mind nor am I expecting you to.
-----------------------------------------------------
As I said earlier in the thread: It's easier to live in ignorance because having your worldview shattered is never a "feel good" experience.

 

[Kaldrak]

@wowfucktron Eh, you're just being Schrödinger's douchebag. (not an insult, for the mods. It's an actual term).

Nothing principled about that, lol.

 

[M0NST3R]

@Kaldrak

There is really one main group that has any condition that could be described as 'Trump Derangement Syndrome' and it's his followers. It's the derangement that the man was ever fit for the office in the first place. And as far as I can tell, almost everyone dogpiling me here suffers from it.

That's a bad argument and you know it.

Moving on, I'm against a few of your ideas @readingsit, specifically

1: return the voting rules to a privileged instead of a right to minimize uneducated voters(imo 'must own land to vote')
2: return the senate from a popular vote to a vote by state senate, increasing the importance of state elections

The first not necessarily because I'm against requiring an informed electorate but because utilizing stuff like ownership of land or business has historically faced issues of government acting the same way as the current administration. Two I dislike because I believe it can make it too difficult to have a Senator removed that people want removed.

Kaldrak as for yours:

Publicly funded elections, elimination of PAC's/Super PAC's, and strict donation caps would go a long way towards helping our elected officials actually serve us instead of their own interests. If I had my way, I'd also have a ten year ban on elected officials going to work for lobbying companies after they've left office.

You would probably wind up liking my corporate and tax reform plan. Namely the idea of removing corporate personhood and reclassifying them, and non-profit organizations into the same sort of gigantic legal entity. Lobbying firms would functionally be unable to exist in the form they do now.

@wowfucktron

I'm not saying full disclosure of financial records. I mean they have to abandon any business or financial interest they had prior to being elected ever. No passing it off to your friend or relative either. It gets either publicly auctioned or sold off through a third party.

You aren't obligated to run for Congress so it's not insane to me to require a higher level of personal sacrifice as a privilege of gaining access to power.

 

[readingsit]

@Kaldrak
Bernie railed against millionaires and billionaires until he became a millionaire then the only problem was the billionaires. if he ever becomes a billionaire he will say the problem isnt the people with money but the system that allows people to have it and he should be put in charge so he can change it

Tell me, do you think anyone else ANYWHERE would?

no, and i dont think he would either. but not all the people who wouldnt vote for it have bad reasoning behind it. the problem with politics isnt the money from super packs or rich people after all jeb bush still lost the primary and the only reason hillary beat sanders was because of the 'super delegate' system democrats run and both of those candidates were the ones with all the money. and dont even get me started on bloomberg. the money issue in politics is from public unions due o them collectively bargaining against the taxpayer without the taxpayer via a politician they can donate taxpayer money too and that issue can find republican backing

man was ever fit for the office in the first place

ha! that pooch was screwed whe obama became president. the precedent of candidates that arent fit for office can be president when a guy with all the experience of a 'community organizer' became president. obama and trump are two sides of the same coin the only difference was trump was a club while obama was a dagger. we didnt think he was fit for office we just thought he'd make for a great middle finger and boy did he! the amazing economy, conservative policy, and tolerable judges were a surprising bonus

@M0NST3R

government acting the same way as the current administration

so nothing would change but the electorate would at least be more informed? thats an improvement imo

Two I dislike because I believe it can make it too difficult to have a Senator removed that people want removed.

implies that its easy to remove a candidate now. McConnell has been hated by republicans for decades and there he sits. atleast we might have an easier time replacing the people that choose who sits on the senate i.e. the state senators

It gets either publicly auctioned or sold off through a third party

fraid im against that one. i dont want the law to justify living off the taxpayer. i rather more transparency in what their doing to minimize insider trading fears mixed with term limits. not to mention many will just passing it off to friends or relatives before they run in advance. the government stripping relatives of businesses is totalitarian so such a law wouldnt do much

 

[wowfucktron]

@m0nst3r
You realize Congress would have to approve and vote for all of that? The same Congress that loves raising their paychecks every two years.
Hence the corpse raising metaphor.

@kaldrak

Eh, you're just being Schrödinger's douchebag.

Nothing principled about that

Playing the victim is never a good look. It won't get you anywhere in life beyond being angry at everyone who is more successful than yourself.

 

[Kaldrak]

@M0NST3R Fine, it was a bad argument.

@readingsit

the amazing economy, conservative policy, and tolerable judges were a surprising bonus

Record high unemployment, hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths, and half the country financially screwed is that great to you?

Let me explain something. If Trump was even just a little bit smarter, he could've saved hundreds of thousands of lives in this pandemic. All he had to do was sell MAGA brand facemasks and instruct his followers that they could 'own the libs' by wearing them. He could've said it was their patriotic duty to wear a mask and save our older generations. He would've made a ton of money off of it too.

He didn't. And before you go into mask efficacy denialism, I would kindly point to Japan, a country which has almost universal mask wearing and over a hundred and fifty million people. Their transmission and death rates for the entire pandemic don't come close to what ours are in a WEEK. Trump did that. His inaction. His worthlessness. His stupidity. But you can keep continuing to celebrate the right wing takeover of the judiciary if you want. I'm sure that'll pay out...at some point..for someone...who isn't you or I.

@wowfucktron I'm sorry, I'm not here to watch you stroke your epeen. Go do that somewhere else. It's kinda gross, dude.